Steve81's Theater

[Steve81]

New arrival



Makes those KEFs look even more petite than the 18.0. Still, for a 21" sub, it wasn't too hard for me to manage getting downstairs and unpacked on my own. DHL reckoned the box was 140, so the sub might be around 125-130.

I had some time to get things worked up today, but still some fine tuning to go. Basically had to set a delay on the 21.0LX to compensate for having the 18.0 on Outlaw's wireless system, and a touch of EQ. Initial impressions are good (no surprise there), but I won't really have time to push the new setup until this weekend.

 

[rojo]

New arrival

View attachment 22359 View attachment 22360 View attachment 22361

Makes those KEFs look even more petite than the 18.0. Still, for a 21" sub, it wasn't too hard for me to manage getting downstairs and unpacked on my own. DHL reckoned the box was 140, so the sub might be around 125-130.

I had some time to get things worked up today, but still some fine tuning to go. Basically had to set a delay on the 21.0LX to compensate for having the 18.0 on Outlaw's wireless system, and a touch of EQ. Initial impressions are good (no surprise there), but I won't really have time to push the new setup until this weekend.

Holy crap! I imagine we won't have to wait for your write-up to know how it sounds. Just turn it up to full volume and we'll see the reports of seismic activity in the news.

 

[shadyJ]

New arrival

View attachment 22359 View attachment 22360 View attachment 22361

Makes those KEFs look even more petite than the 18.0. Still, for a 21" sub, it wasn't too hard for me to manage getting downstairs and unpacked on my own. DHL reckoned the box was 140, so the sub might be around 125-130.

I had some time to get things worked up today, but still some fine tuning to go. Basically had to set a delay on the 21.0LX to compensate for having the 18.0 on Outlaw's wireless system, and a touch of EQ. Initial impressions are good (no surprise there), but I won't really have time to push the new setup until this weekend.

Hey Steve, I am sorry but you are going to have to send that thing to me for a little while so I can do a quality control inspection. I only need it for 8 or 9 months or so, but we need to make sure that thing meets your high standards, so I am going to have to put it through it the paces. Sorry about this bud, but you now how it is, we don't want to circumvent standard operating procedure on something this important. I will be expecting the sub within the week, thanks.

 

[KEW]

New arrival

View attachment 22359 View attachment 22360 View attachment 22361

Makes those KEFs look even more petite than the 18.0. Still, for a 21" sub, it wasn't too hard for me to manage getting downstairs and unpacked on my own. DHL reckoned the box was 140, so the sub might be around 125-130.

I had some time to get things worked up today, but still some fine tuning to go. Basically had to set a delay on the 21.0LX to compensate for having the 18.0 on Outlaw's wireless system, and a touch of EQ. Initial impressions are good (no surprise there), but I won't really have time to push the new setup until this weekend.

The general momentum on this forum seems to lean towards ported subs.
What considerations have led you to choose sealed subs over ported subs?
Thanks!

 

[Steve81]

The general momentum on this forum seems to lean towards ported subs.
What considerations have led you to choose sealed subs over ported subs?
Thanks!

Hey Kurt,

For me it's not really a question of ported vs sealed, but what do you want to achieve and what are you willing to accept to get there. I want a system where I never have to wonder "what if", but I'm not willing to accept large, heavy eyesores either (*cough* Cap 4000ULF *cough*). High powered sealed subs fit those requirements to a T.

Of course, you also know my thoughts / history with the PB13U as well. By the book, it's a great ported sub with plenty of output down to its (adjustable) tuning point. In my room, it needed a lot of work to get things right. I had to tamp down the low end quite a bit, including using SVS's room compensation control, aka an adjustable high pass filter. At the time, I figured if I was doing all that to get the Ultra to meld with my room, I might as well just go with a sealed system. I haven't been sorry yet. With the 21.0LX and 18.0 working together, and both subs set to their No EQ option, the only EQ I had to apply to get the 20-80Hz range right was to cut a peak centered at 50Hz.

Obviously rooms vary, and what works for me doesn't work for everyone. OTOH, ported isn't necessarily the best for every situation either.

 

[lovinthehd]

The general momentum on this forum seems to lean towards ported subs.
What considerations have led you to choose sealed subs over ported subs?
Thanks!

Bigger question may be why you still separate them as a primary consideration?

 

[Pogre]

I want.

 

[KEW]

Bigger question may be why you still separate them as a primary consideration?

Because the frequency responses are so different!
A sealed sub starts a gradual roll-off often at a fairly high frequency, but often maintains CEA output down to 10-12Hz territory.
Josh Ricci says of the Funk sealed FW21.0:

The overall raw response fits within a 6dB window from 58-235Hz ...

So the anechoic roll-off of this sub puts F3 at 58Hz! (that may not really be a precise statement, but you get my point)
Looking at the graph, the FW21.0 starts it's downward slope around 110Hz.
A typical ported sub stays close to anechoically flat to the port tuning frequency (which is usually in the low 20's), then drops like a stone below that, rarely providing any response at 10Hz and 12.5Hz (although I am still trying to understand how much these lowest lows matter).
They are different animals regarding FR and I believe FR is an important enough characteristic to consider ported and sealed "not the same".
For me, sealed subs have always required less processing to sound good in-room.

 

[lovinthehd]

Because the frequency responses are so different!
A sealed sub starts a gradual roll-off often at a fairly high frequency, but often maintains CEA output down to 10-12Hz territory.
Josh Ricci says of the Funk sealed FW21.0:

So the anechoic roll-off of this sub puts F3 at 58Hz! (that may not really be a precise statement, but you get my point)
Looking at the graph, the FW21.0 starts it's downward slope around 110Hz.
A typical ported sub stays close to flat to the port tuning frequency (which is usually in the low 20's), then drops like a stone below that, rarely providing any response at 10Hz and 12.5Hz (although I am still trying to understand how much these lowest lows matter).
They are different animals regarding FR and I believe FR is an important enough characteristic to consider ported and sealed "not the same".
For me, sealed subs have always required less processing to sound good in-room.

I still can't lump all sealed vs all ported, that's just too broad, frequency response comparisons aside, they're just tools for a job. For example, you mention the FW21.0 but what else would be in the running and would it be a single or multiples or? Sure there are inherent differences in terms of the basic designs but which may suit your purposes depends on cost, extension/spl goals, tolerance of box size and quantity of boxes, your room/number of seats, amplification/dsp available, etc.

I went with sealed on my diy subs because they're smaller, lighter and easier to build, at least for the first round , but I used more of them to compensate somewhat (4 largish sealed vs 2 full Marty subs was my basic decision, some day will build the Marty boxes anyways). I was somewhat chasing sub 20hz performance but not too crazy, my large open room doesn't provide much cabin gain.

 

[Steve81]

So this is where things sit at the moment:

EQ consists of a boost at 100Hz, cut at 50Hz, plus the low end boost. Going with Nathan's earlier advice, I have a high pass filter in place at 20Hz, which is offset (and then some) by low shelf filters. This allows useful extension below 20Hz, while protecting the system from the strain involved with low single digit content. As is, there's quite a bit (it varies given the HPF, but up to 8dB) of ULF boost at play to produce that graph. I figure where it's at is a good stopping point, particularly given that I run the subs a little hot anyway.

As far as subjective thoughts go, the project of adding the 21.0LX and moving the 18.0 near field actually made more of a difference than I expected. While the basic sound quality of the system @ the money seat hasn't changed much IMHO (I felt I had the system dialed in well previously, so no shame in that), the power / feel of the system is significantly better. Going through the Blu-ray Reference Demo disc bass scenes, with goodies like War of the Worlds (Pods Emerge), Flight of the Phoenix (Crash scene), U571 (depth charging), was a completely different experience than what I've had previously, with my chair (and a half!) transmitting copious amounts of bass to my rear end. I also had some fun with the Skadoosh scene from KFP, gradually raising the levels while watching for compression on Omnimic's RTA. I gave up after hitting reference level plus another 5dB bump for the subs, while the 21.0LX/18.0 combo just kept on delivering more output. Since its a rare occasion for me to listen even at -5dB from reference, I think headroom to spare is an apt description of my new situation.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

So how is it after having it for a while? Any new revelations?

 

[Steve81]

So how is it after having it for a while? Any new revelations?

Satisfying No new revelations to speak of, just the simple truth that I have far more power on tap than I'm likely to use 99.999% of the time, and the corollary that everything is clean, clear, and well defined even at the "spirited" levels I enjoy.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Good... so what are you going to upgrade now???

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[Steve81]

Good... so what are you going to upgrade now???

Myself hopefully. I'm in horrible shape ATM.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Myself hopefully. I'm in horrible shape ATM.

Stud.

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[Steve81]

So I've done a little more tweaking... disabled the HPF I mentioned earlier to see how deeply the setup can dig.



That's with a 12dB low shelf filter to boost the low end. To test things out, I ran this clip to -5dB from reference, with the subs running a little hot on top of that.



Suffice it to say I haven't run up against the ULF limiter yet (a loud pop, or potentially system shutdown ). Do I dare go for more?

 

[Steve81]

New little rig for the living room:

 

[STRONGBADF1]

New little rig for the living room:
View attachment 23821

With an 18 in the corner???

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[Steve81]

With an 18 in the corner???

Nah, just a little 2.0 rig this time around. No real space for a sub, nor a real need since a trip to bassland sits just downstairs anyway. The speakers do a respectable job in any case, with reasonable extension into the 30s in room, and more than enough output for typical family listening.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

She wouldn't let you, huh???...

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