I'm looking to upgrade my 2 subwoofers soon. Any recommendations?

[Steve81]

Maybe two of the JTR Captivator 1400s

Maybe a Seaton F18+ and slave unit

Maybe a pair of the PSA S3601s

I'd second these recommendations. Of those, I'd personally lean to the Seaton F18+, as the upgrade path is relatively inexpensive: just get two more slave units.

 

[2channel lover]

I have a flat response down to 15hz with a pair of Hsu VTF -3 MK5 HP's. Great bang for your buck and it's legit clean bass.

*Edit: Price in the link is for 2 of them.

View attachment 22626

@Gaddfly you have a great budget and you can get more sub, but as an owner of a pair of the same sub (inspired by Pogre)...for the size of your space...2 of these will absolutely give you what you're looking for on the low end.

I don't know what your seating arrangement is like in the HT room, but if you have the ability to add a nearfield sub behind the seating...you get a different experience.

For my space...initially I had one nearfield and the other along the TV wall...outstanding for movies, but some localization issues with music that was bothering me so I moved the nearfield sub to the TV wall also...very good...but, I'm considering adding a 3 rd sub at some point to get that near field experience back.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have a flat response down to 15hz with a pair of Hsu VTF -3 MK5 HP's. Great bang for your buck and it's legit clean bass.

*Edit: Price in the link is for 2 of them.

View attachment 22626

That is at 75 dB spl. what is it like at 115 dB?

And a reminder to all that distortion in the low band is hard to detect; one reason that many measure performance at 10% THD.

 

[shadyJ]

That is at 75 dB spl. what is it like at 115 dB?

And a reminder to all that distortion in the low band is hard to detect; one reason that many measure performance at 10% THD.

A system like that should be able to hold that response at 115 dB in-room. I would expect some compression by 120 dB however.

Also, 10% THD could be very audible depending on the harmonics. And I doubt that anyone has used a 10% THD criteria for subwoofers for many years now.

 

[Irvrobinson]

A system like that should be able to hold that response at 115 dB in-room. I would expect some compression by 120 dB however.

Also, 10% THD could be very audible depending on the harmonics. And I doubt that anyone has used a 10% THD criteria for subwoofers for many years now.

I get a kick out of how often 115db or 120db levels at 20Hz is bandied about here as some sort of must-have. Other than some sort of audio locker room check, what is the value of 120db at 20Hz in a residential listening room? I live in a place where the rumble of thunder can be pretty spectacular, but the LF portion of the noise never gets that loud. (The scariest part of a thunderclap isn't in the bass range.)

Oh, I know, it's the Starship Enterprise in outer space!

 

[mtrycrafts]

A system like that should be able to hold that response at 115 dB in-room. I would expect some compression by 120 dB however.

Also, 10% THD could be very audible depending on the harmonics. And I doubt that anyone has used a 10% THD criteria for subwoofers for many years now.

May or may not be relevant:
http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/distortion

Interesting conclusion at the bottom.

 

[shadyJ]

May or may not be relevant:
http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/distortion

Interesting conclusion at the bottom.

That, to me, is a very strange study to be using pure tones of 'distortion' during music. Contrary to claims by the study, that is not how speakers behave. It doesn't prove much because the tones used do not relate to the masker, which in that case was music which is complex content. That says nothing about the audibility of harmonic distortion, and I am not sure what is says about masking either.

By far, the best piece of research done on the audibility of distortion in bass frequencies was done by Louis Fielder and Eric Benjamin:
Fielder, Louis D., and Eric M. Benjamin. "Subwoofer performance for accurate reproduction of music." Journal of the Audio Engineering Society 36.6 (1988): 443-456.

In fact, it is pretty much the only serious study that has been conducted on this subject.

 

[shadyJ]

I get a kick out of how often 115db or 120db levels at 20Hz is bandied about here as some sort of must-have. Other than some sort of audio locker room check, what is the value of 120db at 20Hz in a residential listening room? I live in a place where the rumble of thunder can be pretty spectacular, but the LF portion of the noise never gets that loud. (The scariest part of a thunderclap isn't in the bass range.)

Oh, I know, it's the Starship Enterprise in outer space!

I agree. Its fun to crank the subs once in awhile, but I seldom do that, and when I do it is only for very short periods, and it makes a lot of stuff around the house rattle. 120 dB is pretty absurd for most people, unless they are some kind of bass junkie. It's a neat trick to do if you have the capability, but not worth the expense for the most part. On the other hand, some people like their music and movies to be really loud. Not my tastes, but I know some who enjoy that.

 

[mtrycrafts]

That, to me, is a very strange study to be using pure tones of 'distortion' during music. Contrary to claims by the study, that is not how speakers behave. It doesn't prove much because the tones used do not relate to the masker, which in that case was music which is complex content. That says nothing about the audibility of harmonic distortion, and I am not sure what is says about masking either.

By far, the best piece of research done on the audibility of distortion in bass frequencies was done by Louis Fielder and Eric Benjamin:
Fielder, Louis D., and Eric M. Benjamin. "Subwoofer performance for accurate reproduction of music." Journal of the Audio Engineering Society 36.6 (1988): 443-456.

In fact, it is pretty much the only serious study that has been conducted on this subject.

Yes but it also states this:

Other types of distortion such as Harmonic Distortion and Intermodulation Distortion have a direct relationship to a frequency being reproduced as part of the music. These types of distortion may be harder to detect than straight noise distortion; a subject for a future round of experiments.
Unfortunately I haven's seen that study, may not be coming.

Tom Nousaine for sure used 10%

 

[shadyJ]

Yes but it also states this:

Other types of distortion such as Harmonic Distortion and Intermodulation Distortion have a direct relationship to a frequency being reproduced as part of the music. These types of distortion may be harder to detect than straight noise distortion; a subject for a future round of experiments.
Unfortunately I haven's seen that study, may not be coming.

Tom Nousaine for sure used 10%

OK, I must have glossed over that statement. But the usefulness of the original experiment is still negligible. Since the masking content was a complex signal, it reveals very little about the audibility of distortion. The Fielder and Benjamin experiments used pure tones with harmonic components.

I know that Nousaine used 10%, but that was before CEA-2010, so quite awhile ago.

 

[Steve81]

I get a kick out of how often 115db or 120db levels at 20Hz is bandied about here as some sort of must-have. Other than some sort of audio locker room check, what is the value of 120db at 20Hz in a residential listening room?

I don't know about 120dB at 20Hz specifically, but HT at reference levels can demand output in the 115-120dB range from a subwoofer for short term peaks. This thread at data-bass analyzes a few flicks to see how close they get to a worst case scenario (WCS), i.e. 0dBFS on the LFE channel plus 0dBFS worth of redirected bass from all the other channels (123dB with 5 channels of redirected bass). There are a few movies there that get pretty damned loud, with How To Train Your Dragon among the worst given that it peaks at -1.44dB from a WCS, and has a lot of energy well below 20Hz.

 

[Pogre]

That is at 75 dB spl. what is it like at 115 dB?

And a reminder to all that distortion in the low band is hard to detect; one reason that many measure performance at 10% THD.

I've never measured at 115db! I would never listen at 115db. Honestly I've never tried turning it up past 0. I'm not certain I can hit 115db at mlp, but it's so uncomfortable at 0 I've never tried to.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't know about 120dB at 20Hz specifically, but HT at reference levels can demand output in the 115-120dB range from a subwoofer for short term peaks. This thread at data-bass analyzes a few flicks to see how close they get to a worst case scenario (WCS), i.e. 0dBFS on the LFE channel plus 0dBFS worth of redirected bass from all the other channels (123dB with 5 channels of redirected bass). There are a few movies there that get pretty damned loud, with How To Train Your Dragon among the worst given that it peaks at -1.44dB from a WCS, and has a lot of energy well below 20Hz.

I think 120db at 20Hz at one's listening seat in some homes (many homes?) could cause physical damage. Like things falling off the walls.

I'm not dissing anyone who wants to build the ultimate bass system (like you? ;-)), my point was simply that many here seem to imply that without very high output at 20Hz you're missing out on something important. I'm just challenging that notion.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think 120db at 20Hz at one's listening seat in some homes (many homes?) could cause physical damage. Like things falling off the walls.

I'm not dissing anyone who wants to build the ultimate bass system (like you? ;-)), my point was simply that many here seem to imply that without very high output at 20Hz you're missing out on something important. I'm just challenging that notion.

Nah, didn't make anything fall over/off the wall. No new cracks that I can see either.

Some want such capability as a goal, some can't imagine it....doesn't mean you're missing something important to you, tho.

 

[Steve81]

I'm not dissing anyone who wants to build the ultimate bass system (like you? ;-)), my point was simply that many here seem to imply that without very high output at 20Hz you're missing out on something important. I'm just challenging that notion.

No argument from me. As ever, it's just a matter of what you're looking to achieve. Most people aren't looking for reference level HT, or anywhere close to it. Hell, 99% of the time, my system is hovering around -20dB from reference because that's a comfortable volume for the wife and kids. An entry level Hsu would cover that easily enough. It's just that 1% of the time where they're gone and I like to cut loose...

I think 120db at 20Hz at one's listening seat in some homes (many homes?) could cause physical damage. Like things falling off the walls.

I think that's a point of pride for some people

 

[lovinthehd]

I've never measured at 115db! I would never listen at 115db. Honestly I've never tried turning it up past 0. I'm not certain I can hit 115db at mlp, but it's so uncomfortable at 0 I've never tried to.

In the words of Rob Schneider, You Can Do It!

 

[mtrycrafts]

I've never measured at 115db! I would never listen at 115db. Honestly I've never tried turning it up past 0. I'm not certain I can hit 115db at mlp, but it's so uncomfortable at 0 I've never tried to.

I wasn't after listening at 115 only plotting to see how well it holds. Earplugs and a quick sweep.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've never measured at 115db! I would never listen at 115db. Honestly I've never tried turning it up past 0. I'm not certain I can hit 115db at mlp, but it's so uncomfortable at 0 I've never tried to.

The calibration of a master volume set up to 0 on the relative scale for movies should yield at least a 115dB response from the LFE channel...more with redirected bass. Full reference level is indeed very loud, not trying to do that to my old ears other than a demo here and there

 

[Pogre]

I wasn't after listening at 115 only plotting to see how well it holds. Earplugs and a quick sweep.

I'm out of town right now. I might do a sweep or 2 when I get home at reference. You've got me curious now.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm out of town right now. I might do a sweep or 2 when I get home at reference. You've got me curious now.

Have a good trip.
Sweep it at 75 and whatever loudness you are willing to endure with earplugs for a few seconds.
Can it be overlapped afterwards for differences to be obvious?