Incorporating MiniDSP With Audyssey XT32

[Pogre]

Before you get a second unit, you may want to try using the other two outputs for your mains.

I wondered about that, but I only have 2 inputs. Is it something that can be done?

 

[ATLAudio]

Only if you run full range out of the AVR.

 

[PENG]

I wondered about that, but I only have 2 inputs. Is it something that can be done?

At least try it temporarily without the subs, just to make sure you like the outcome. In the mean time you will find out if Audyssey can do a good enough job on the subs only.

 

[PENG]

Only if you run full range out of the AVR.

Then he still has to set the subs to small and subs to "None".

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/minidsp-2x4hd-application/282-2x4-hd-sub-integration

What I meant was for him to try using the other two outputs for ease of connections only. So he can simply switch the input connections and the filters would have been pre-configured for both sub and mains, depending the outputs used. Again, just for trial.

 

[PENG]

I am given up on using the mindsp in my HT system because the gain over XT32 SubEQ seems marginal. So far I am happy to see what it could do quickly with just playing with REW's auto EQ on my LS50/E15HP based 2 channel system. I am going to keep it for sure.

Below is the result of my first trial. That was from the quick auto EQ and I will be trying to flatten out the 35 to 200 Hz somewhat, by trying different auto EQ settings in REW, or play with the manual features, the minidsp's crossover settings, as well as the E15HP's PEQs.

Before I make my next move, I would love to get some help from experienced users like ATL and Pogre.
Thank you in advance.

 

[KEW]

I try using it with Audyssey off but it seemed hopeless because the "off" curve is just way too ugly to the mini to do anything.

I'm just brainstorming without the benefit of understanding miniDSP or Audyssey very well; so take this with a big grain of salt!

Using a rough analogy, my "Room EQ for Dummies" interpretation of @ATLAudio 's comments is you should use the miniDSP like 100grit sandpaper to get rid of the biggest peaks and valleys, then let Audyssey be the 400grit sandpaper for getting rid of the smaller issues.

It may be worth simply targeting the worst 5 or so issues using mini-dsp and then see what Audyssey does with the rest before giving up entirely on using the miniDSP in your HT room. I am thinking of ATLaudios suggestion that you are helping Audyssey help you.

 

[Pogre]

@PENG, Kurt summed it up pretty well. After loading rew's filters I tweaked a couple of the worst spots then ran audyssey.

Sorry took so long to reply. I've been sick the last couple days. Just looking at text on a screen was making me nauseous.

 

[PENG]

I understood what you guys were saying and I tried. The AV8801 was able to get it < +/- 3dB and with the mini I could get it about 1 dB closer overall within the range of say 20-100 Hz. In the two channel system, I spent hours playing with it today, even created separate filters for the sub, and the best I could do without resorting to manually creating filters is quite reasonable. I was able to get rid of that huge peak at around 200 Hz that has been bothering me since I acquired the LS50s.

In the graphs below, green is the one with different filters for the LS50s and the sub. Red is the one using the same filters for both. I am now going read the help file in REW before I play with the manual filters, any help will be appreciated. I am hoping to raise the trough between 85-115 Hz without raising the hump centered at 127 Hz. As for the HT set up, I am happy with Audyssey on its own and it makes sense to use it in the system that has no auto REQ running.

 

[KEW]

In the two channel system, I spent hours playing with it today, even created separate filters for the sub, and the best I could do without resorting to manually creating filters is quite reasonable.
As for the HT set up, I am happy with Audyssey on its own and it makes sense to use it in the system that has no auto REQ running.

Certainly hard to argue with that logic!
If you HT system gets such good results from Audyssey alone, not that much left on the table for the miniDSP to address.

It would be interesting to see what Audyssey (even an older version) could do with the current green line in your two channel system.

One thing I picked up from my discussions with ATLAudio that may be useful to you is he would manually enter the information provided using the auto-correct system (not sure if the auto-correct file was generated by miniDSP or REW). Apparently REW or miniDSP will take your measurement and provide the adjustments to provide a theoretically optimized frequency response. However, if you just dump that file into the miniDSP, you are not able to make any further adjustments. IOW, when he used the auto-correct file and remeasured, he could not make further adjustments; however, he could manually enter the corrections listed by the auto-correct function, then tweak as desired.

 

[Pogre]

Certainly hard to argue with that logic!
If you HT system gets such good results from Audyssey alone, not that much left on the table for the miniDSP to address.

It would be interesting to see what Audyssey (even an older version) could do with the current green line in your two channel system.

One thing I picked up from my discusssions with ATLAudio that may be useful to you is he would manually enter the information provided using the auto-correct system (not sure if the auto-correct file was generated by miniDSP or REW). Apparently REW or miniDSP will take your measurement and provide the adjustments to provide a theoretically optomized frequency response. However, if you just dump that file into the miniDSP, you are not able to any further adjustments. IOW, when he used the auto-correct file and remeasured, he could not make further adjustments; however, he could manually enter the corrections listed by the auto-correct function, then tweak as desired.

You seem to have a very good understanding of this, Kurt. Peng, after I ran Audyssey I went back into PEQ and tweaked a little bit more. I used the outputs to upload the rew file, then made a few manual adjustments in the inputs after running Audyssey.

 

[PENG]

You seem to have a very good understanding of this, Kurt. Peng, after I ran Audyssey I went back into PEQ and tweaked a little bit more. I used the outputs to upload the rew file, then made a few manual adjustments in the inputs after running Audyssey.

I also feel it makes sense to tweak it with REW/minidsp after running Audssey, but in a multichannel system I think I would follow ATL's advise to let Audyssey have the final say, because it can (certainly will try to) integrate all the subs and speakers together one last time. The 2X4HD cannot cover all 7 channels.

 

[PENG]

Certainly hard to argue with that logic!
If you HT system gets such good results from Audyssey alone, not that much left on the table for the miniDSP to address.

It would be interesting to see what Audyssey (even an older version) could do with the current green line in your two channel system.

One thing I picked up from my discussions with ATLAudio that may be useful to you is he would manually enter the information provided using the auto-correct system (not sure if the auto-correct file was generated by miniDSP or REW). Apparently REW or miniDSP will take your measurement and provide the adjustments to provide a theoretically optimized frequency response. However, if you just dump that file into the miniDSP, you are not able to make any further adjustments. IOW, when he used the auto-correct file and remeasured, he could not make further adjustments; however, he could manually enter the corrections listed by the auto-correct function, then tweak as desired.

Not in the same words but I think that's what you described may be basically I have tried to do today. In REW, I clicked EQ, the EQ window would pop up with some default parameters. So I make changes on it to suit my system, such as choosing minidsp 2X4HD as equaliser, and then I would click on "Match response to target" after selecting the appropriate range for the sub, say 15 to 200 Hz. REW/minidsp would then do it's "auto EQ" thing and return a predicted curve. Then I would click on "EQ Filters" on REW and it would show a pop up window with all the filters installed. It is on that screen where I could do my manual edition. As you said, manual tweaking must be done right there, before importing the information into minidsp.

After reading up on both REW and mindsp's documentation, I did the manual tweaking for a few hours and was able to make some improvements, though not by much. The trend up from 38 to 23 Hz was intentional. The sub placement is terrible as it is back into a side wall. The distance between the two side wall is only 11 ft. With the LS50 and R900's side by side with a piano in between, there is absolutely no room to place the sub along that same wall so the subs and the LS50s are firing at 90 degrees to each others. I am actually quite surprise to end up with the seemingly reasonable results i am getting so far.

 

[PENG]

then made a few manual adjustments in the inputs after running Audyssey.

I almost missed this, what kind of manual adjustments in the inputs? Did you mean you click on "PEQ" of the minidsp inputs, instead of the outputs?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I almost missed this, what kind of manual adjustments in the inputs? Did you mean you click on "PEQ" of the minidsp inputs, instead of the outputs?

I think that's what he meant. I intend to TRY to EQ my 3 subs on the output side individually, and then make my global adjustments on the input side. Not sure I should bother though. I've always read to simply adjust all of them globally.

 

[PENG]

I think that's what he meant. I intend to TRY to EQ my 3 subs on the output side individually, and then make my global adjustments on the input side. Not sure I should bother though. I've always read to simply adjust all of them globally.

Audyssey time aligned and level match them and then EQ them globally too. I think that's the logical approach because in the end they will all get the same signal so it would be worse if you EQ them individually. I still have not tried using the PEQ in the inputs, would like to hear back from Pogre if that's why he has done.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Audyssey time aligned and level match them and then EQ them globally too. I think that's the logical approach because in the end they will all get the same signal so it would be worse if you EQ them individually. I still have not tried using the PEQ in the inputs, would like to hear back from Pogre if that's why he has done.

I remember reading about Genes adventures with minidsp, and he also tweaked each one individually before globally, and to paraphrase him, he was trying to "get the most out of each one first". On one hand, this makes sense in the same way as using minidsp before audyssey to make audysseys job easier. But I'm afraid it would lead to overlapping filters, so I'm not sure which way to go. I do know, I'm still not satisfied with DEQ, even with the offsets. It's too dependent on source, and seems inconsistent because of that, and I'm not going into the menu to change the offsets every time I want something else. That's why I've always just gone +5ish on my subs, and if I want more, I just turn up the MV. Also, it raises the surrounds to comical levels. My avr only has XT so some of my experiences could be related to that. Don't know.

 

[Pogre]

I almost missed this, what kind of manual adjustments in the inputs? Did you mean you click on "PEQ" of the minidsp inputs, instead of the outputs?

Yes. That's what I did. I'll be more available in a couple of hours. I like that you are doing this right now because I'm still pretty fresh to this too. I know my system sounds better, but there are probably some flaws in my method.

 

[PENG]

I remember reading about Genes adventures with minidsp, and he also tweaked each one individually before globally, and to paraphrase him, he was trying to "get the most out of each one first". On one hand, this makes sense in the same way as using minidsp before audyssey to make audysseys job easier. But I'm afraid it would lead to overlapping filters, so I'm not sure which way to go. I do know, I'm still not satisfied with DEQ, even with the offsets. It's too dependent on source, and seems inconsistent because of that, and I'm not going into the menu to change the offsets every time I want something else. That's why I've always just gone +5ish on my subs, and if I want more, I just turn up the MV. Also, it raises the surrounds to comical levels. My avr only has XT so some of my experiences could be related to that. Don't know.

Which AVR model do you have? So far my experience are with the Denon 4308, Marantz 7005 and then the Marantz AV8801 and I have never experienced anything abnormal with the surround channels when DEQ is engaged. You can add as many subs your want and I can assure you that will not do what DEQ does. DEQ is really top notch and if it does not work for you then I do not know why, may be something about your particular AVR model, firmware, or whatever.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Which AVR model do you have? So far my experience are with the Denon 4308, Marantz 7005 and then the Marantz AV8801 and I have never experienced anything abnormal with the surround channels when DEQ is engaged. You can add as many subs your want and I can assure you that will not do what DEQ does. DEQ is really top notch and if it does not work for you then I do not know why, may be something about your particular AVR model, firmware, or whatever.

Hi peng, I know for sure I can't duplicate deq manually. I have an onkyo txnr808. It's a heavyweight, and I've always had good results with it. So long as I leave deq off. I have not given up on deq yet, but thinking of ways to make it work for me. I've even thought about lowering the surround channel trims to compensate, because I hate when it jacks them up. Sometimes it's not so bad though, so I am pretty sure that's due to different sources. Another thing I don't like is male voices tend to bleed into the subs. I've read both sides of the deq coin and it's interesting. Both have supporters and detractors. I'm trying to stay open minded and give it a chance. Maybe my avr is just due for an update! Working on a potential remodel to my LR this fall. Maybe...Currently crossed over at 80hz. Firmware is up to date.

 

[panteragstk]

Hi peng, I know for sure I can't duplicate deq manually. I have an onkyo txnr808. It's a heavyweight, and I've always had good results with it. So long as I leave deq off. I have not given up on deq yet, but thinking of ways to make it work for me. I've even thought about lowering the surround channel trims to compensate, because I hate when it jacks them up. Sometimes it's not so bad though, so I am pretty sure that's due to different sources. Another thing I don't like is male voices tend to bleed into the subs. I've read both sides of the deq coin and it's interesting. Both have supporters and detractors. I'm trying to stay open minded and give it a chance. Maybe my avr is just due for an update! Working on a potential remodel to my LR this fall. Maybe...Currently crossed over at 80hz. Firmware is up to date.

I have the 809 and didn't have that issue that I recall. Mine only has XT though. Not sure if yours is XT32 or not.