Tracy Chapman bass & low frequency response/sound

[shadyJ]

But there are many people who just prefer fat bass.

A gentleman prefers fat bass. Only a naive youth would go for skinny bass; since he is inexperienced in the arts of pleasure he retains the fancies of youth. But we who have partaked of the wines of this world, we have refined our palates enough to know that only through fat bass can full satisfaction be achieved.

 

[Pogre]

A gentleman prefers fat bass. Only a naive youth would go for skinny bass; since he is inexperienced in the arts of pleasure he retains the fancies of youth. But we who have partaked of the wines of this world, we have refined our palates enough to know that only through fat bass can full satisfaction be achieved.

I love it! Very eloquently put.

 

[rojo]

No one should ever try to compensate for an equal loudness curve. Just because we hear in a non-uniform manner does not somehow mean that we hear inaccurately.

I typically listen around -50 to -40 dB. At those levels, I can barely hear sub bass at Audyssey's default measured subwoofer volume setting. I can at -20 to -10, but the sub bass seems too subtle to me, still not an appropriate volume to match midbass and up. I just assumed Marantz and Audyssey knew what they were doing and it was actually a flat response (Dynamic EQ function notwithstanding), and that the difference between flat and my perception of flat was Fletcher-Munson. I know what live sounds like, and flat doesn't sound like live to me. Of course, live is typically louder.

 

[shadyJ]

Shady, I don't understand this reply when you say "No one should ever try to compensate for an equal loudness curve.". Sorry, I haven't had lunch yet...

The Fletcher Munson Curve that Rojo refers to is an equal loudness contour, albeit on outdated one. The current one is ISO 226:2003, but there are those who argue that even that can use some improvements. Briefly put, equal loudness curves are how sensitive our hearing is to different frequencies. We have a much more difficult time hearing bass and very high frequencies than midrange frequencies. Our hearing is many thousands of times more sensitive to midrange frequencies than it is to 20 Hz bass for example.

 

[Pogre]

The Fletcher Munson Curve that Rojo refers to is an equal loudness contour, albeit on outdated one. The current one is ISO 226:2003, but there are those who argue that even that can use some improvements. Briefly put, equal loudness curves are how sensitive our hearing is to different frequencies. We have a much more difficult time hearing bass and very high frequencies than midrange frequencies. Our hearing is many thousands of times more sensitive to midrange frequencies than it is to 20 Hz bass for example.

I looked it up. It looks similar to Audyssey's house curve. I'm guessing dynamic eq boosts it some more at the ends. Interesting. Ima read some more.

 

[highfigh]

I was into car audio for a while too. I put together a pretty nice system, but got tired of tearing everything out and reinstalling it every time I got a new car.

I'm not questioning your system's capabilities at all. I was just pointing out that with a 6db bump it sounds pretty nice.

I don't disagree- I had a pair of 30" EV woofers and since nothing else is going to give me the same sound for a reasonable price,......

I estimated that I did somewhere near 7000 vehicles of various types, including an Oscar Mayer Wiener Wagon. Got a handful of wiener whistles, too. The last place where I installed had three of us in that shop, including the manager who only installed part time. He came into the shop at the end of the year to tell us to guess how many cars we did. This wasn't total receipts including the ones for only parts & accessories, it was the ones that also had labor or were only labor. We came up with our feeble guesstimates of 1500-1700 and he said we weren't even close. Three of us did about 2900 vehicles that year, with him being part time. This wasn't all head units, head + 2 or 4, this included full-blown systems with head unit, amplifier(s), speakers, subs (we designed and built most of the boxes, which included some kind of covering), alarms with all of the bells and whistles and all-out competition systems that took more than a week. The systems with head, speakers, sub, amp(s) and often some kind of signal processing usually took a long day to three days, but rarely longer. We sometimes built 3-5 boxes in a day and I think we were going through 5-10 sheets of MDF per week when we were busy.

No wonder I'm tired.

 

[highfigh]

No one should ever try to compensate for an equal loudness curve. Just because we hear in a non-uniform manner does not somehow mean that we hear inaccurately.

Since we all don't hear the same, there's no way to rightfully say that we hear accurately, either. We can train ourselves to know what we're hearing, though. Ultimately, we develop a sense of what we like and that includes how things 'should' sound, to us. When we hear something that falls far outside of that 'sound', we wrinkle our nose and look around for the reasons it sounds so bad.

Usually, if it's in a bar or restaurant (and in a lot of homes), we'll see the EQ with a Happy Face. That's the reason bar & restaurant owners should make it impossible for the staff to touch the equipment, unless it's something like a dbx Zone Pro system, which allows them to select from four sources and set the level on the wall-mounted controllers. They can change channels too, but that's about all. The amplifiers are EQd, compression/filters and levels are set by the installer/tech and if they do their job well, it sounds good. If not, it doesn't, but the staff is locked out of the controls.

One thing I did, and a lot of others do, is go for big bass when they buy their first system. Once they settle in, they start to hear the deficiencies and inaccuracies and then they're doomed to a life of searching for something that makes them happy.

 

[shadyJ]

Since we all don't hear the same, there's no way to rightfully say that we hear accurately, either. We can train ourselves to know what we're hearing, though. Ultimately, we develop a sense of what we like and that includes how things 'should' sound, to us. When we hear something that falls far outside of that 'sound', we wrinkle our nose and look around for the reasons it sounds so bad.

Usually, if it's in a bar or restaurant (and in a lot of homes), we'll see the EQ with a Happy Face. That's the reason bar & restaurant owners should make it impossible for the staff to touch the equipment, unless it's something like a dbx Zone Pro system, which allows them to select from four sources and set the level on the wall-mounted controllers. They can change channels too, but that's about all. The amplifiers are EQd, compression/filters and levels are set by the installer/tech and if they do their job well, it sounds good. If not, it doesn't, but the staff is locked out of the controls.

One thing I did, and a lot of others do, is go for big bass when they buy their first system. Once they settle in, they start to hear the deficiencies and inaccuracies and then they're doomed to a life of searching for something that makes them happy.

'Hearing accurately' is a term that is fraught with misunderstanding. I probably should not have used it in the first place. However, I would argue that even someone with partial hearing loss is not hearing thing 'inaccurately', they are simply not hearing as much as someone with healthy hearing. It would be an interesting discussion to define what hearing inaccurately would mean, but I have to run now! Perhaps later.

 

[rojo]

'Hearing accurately' is a term that is fraught with misunderstanding. I probably should not have used it in the first place. However, I would argue that even someone with partial hearing loss is not hearing thing 'inaccurately', they are simply not hearing as much as someone with healthy hearing. It would be an interesting discussion to define what hearing inaccurately would mean, but I have to run now! Perhaps later.

My wife would probably say that I hear inaccurately all the time whenever I misquote her or don't follow her instructions. (If she does, just act like you didn't hear her, k?)

 

[Joe B]

My wife would probably say that I hear inaccurately all the time whenever I misquote her or don't follow her instructions. (If she does, just act like you didn't hear her, k?)

As I read the post before yours, I was thinking just about the same thing.

 

[NINaudio]

One thing I did, and a lot of others do, is go for big bass when they buy their first system. Once they settle in, they start to hear the deficiencies and inaccuracies and then they're doomed to a life of searching for something that makes them happy.

My first car "system" consisted of a Kicker box with two ported 12's and horns with the cheapest amp I could find from Crutchfield. I think I had a Panasonic head unit, polk speakers in the dash, and pioneers in the back of my '86 Bucik Century T-Type. I was hooked right there.

I went with 2-way separates for my next car. I remember bringing all my cd's into the car audio shop and the manager showed me how to work the soundboard and left me to my own devices. There were no labels on any of the speakers, just numbers. Several hours later I had narrowed my speaker choices down to two pairs of separates I liked. They were the two lines Boston Acoustic had at that time, the Rally's and the Pros.

The last car I had with an aftermarket system in it, I brought to an IASCA competition just for the hell of it. Sony CDX-C910 head unit, Boston pro 3-way's up front, and an IDMax 12" in a sealed box, Audison amplification. Took home 3rd place in SQ, which wasn't bad because I lost a lot of points for not having install pics! lol

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... However its so hard to tell the original sound without being there.

Exactly. And, even then, how was it recorded? How was the lows EQd?

 

[mtrycrafts]

The Fletcher Munson Curve that Rojo refers to is an equal loudness contour, albeit on outdated one. The current one is ISO 226:2003, but there are those who argue that even that can use some improvements. Briefly put, equal loudness curves are how sensitive our hearing is to different frequencies. We have a much more difficult time hearing bass and very high frequencies than midrange frequencies. Our hearing is many thousands of times more sensitive to midrange frequencies than it is to 20 Hz bass for example.

Can you superimpose that ISO cure on the F M?

 

[shadyJ]

Can you superimpose that ISO cure on the F M?

Here is a Fletcher-Munson vs ISO 226:2003:

There have been other equal loudness curves developed over the years as well.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Here is a Fletcher-Munson vs ISO 226:2003:

There have been other equal loudness curves developed over the years as well.

I have seen the F M curves before but they didn't and still don't look like the blue curves
at the 80 and 100 phons, not that flat.
But that new standard makes it even worse for perception purposes.

 

[shadyJ]

I have seen the F M curves before but they didn't and still don't look like the blue curves
at the 80 and 100 phons, not that flat.
But that new standard makes it even worse for perception purposes.

Are you sure you are not mistaking Fletcher-Munson for Robinson-Dadson? It's a common error.

How is the new standard worse for perception purposes? It's based on updated research. The Fletcher-Munson curves were established in 1933! Audiology techniques have hugely improved since then.

 

[highfigh]

My first car "system" consisted of a Kicker box with two ported 12's and horns with the cheapest amp I could find from Crutchfield. I think I had a Panasonic head unit, polk speakers in the dash, and pioneers in the back of my '86 Bucik Century T-Type. I was hooked right there.

I went with 2-way separates for my next car. I remember bringing all my cd's into the car audio shop and the manager showed me how to work the soundboard and left me to my own devices. There were no labels on any of the speakers, just numbers. Several hours later I had narrowed my speaker choices down to two pairs of separates I liked. They were the two lines Boston Acoustic had at that time, the Rally's and the Pros.

The last car I had with an aftermarket system in it, I brought to an IASCA competition just for the hell of it. Sony CDX-C910 head unit, Boston pro 3-way's up front, and an IDMax 12" in a sealed box, Audison amplification. Took home 3rd place in SQ, which wasn't bad because I lost a lot of points for not having install pics! lol

I really liked the Boston Pro speakers. I did a system in a '73 Pontiac Grand Prix (with the French whorehouse interior) with the regular Bostons (4" two-way separates in the dash and doors, 6-1/2" mid-bass in the bottom of the front doors and 5-1/4" separates in the back, where the 4x10s were and four Pro 10" subs in a single enclosure). I did a basic setup of the Audio control EQT (12 bands, stereo) and the 4XS crossover set up for stereo four band. I never got a chance to tweak it before he showed up one Saturday to say he was taking it down to Chicago for the competition and the next week, he came in to ask if we wanted to put his 3rd Place trophy in the window, which he took in the 501-1000W class. I really liked the sound from that one- didn't sound so much like a car stereo, just like a good music system.

I never knew they subtracted points for not having photos- I didn't take many and he didn't have any for the Chicago competition- the score sheet had nothing about photos, but that may have changed after I stopped doing this- I got out in March of '97. IMO, the lack of photos shouldn't cost ANY points- they have nothing to do with the sound, the quality of the installation or any custom features. I know they added 5 points for having a way to shut the amps off for 'Valet Mode', though. We had one guy come through with a starter interrupt that required someone to wave their hands over the steering wheel and then press the horn before cranking. If they didn't do this, the horn would honk and it wouldn't crank.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Out of curiosity I took out my three favorite Tracy Chapman albums (her first three), including Fast Car, and sampled various songs I remembered having significant bass lines, and used my spectrum analyzer software with the mic at my listening seat.

All three albums have similar spectrum signatures. Most of the low bass energy is +/- 10Hz of 50Hz, with some occasional dips on all three albums into the high 30Hz range, and one or two little spikes at 28Hz (on the Mountains O' Things track). Nothing to use in a subwoofer survey.

This sort of spectrum does excite many peoples' room modes, and with speakers that may have been designed with a low bass hump, and a little bass level bump on an AVR that many people I know use, could easily result in a 15db+ response peak at about 50Hz. Strong 50Hz bass can sound impressive to the uninitiated, and some sounds that reach down to 40Hz can lead people to believe these albums have a lot of bass, but they don't.

Played back on a relatively accurate system, these albums do have a prominent bass line from electric basses and synthesizers, but it shouldn't sound loud or out of proportion. The occasional 40-45Hz notes will sound like real bass on a good system, but that's most of what there is to hear.

 

[NINaudio]

I really liked the Boston Pro speakers. I did a system in a '73 Pontiac Grand Prix (with the French whorehouse interior) with the regular Bostons (4" two-way separates in the dash and doors, 6-1/2" mid-bass in the bottom of the front doors and 5-1/4" separates in the back, where the 4x10s were and four Pro 10" subs in a single enclosure). I did a basic setup of the Audio control EQT (12 bands, stereo) and the 4XS crossover set up for stereo four band. I never got a chance to tweak it before he showed up one Saturday to say he was taking it down to Chicago for the competition and the next week, he came in to ask if we wanted to put his 3rd Place trophy in the window, which he took in the 501-1000W class. I really liked the sound from that one- didn't sound so much like a car stereo, just like a good music system.

I never knew they subtracted points for not having photos- I didn't take many and he didn't have any for the Chicago competition- the score sheet had nothing about photos, but that may have changed after I stopped doing this- I got out in March of '97. IMO, the lack of photos shouldn't cost ANY points- they have nothing to do with the sound, the quality of the installation or any custom features. I know they added 5 points for having a way to shut the amps off for 'Valet Mode', though. We had one guy come through with a starter interrupt that required someone to wave their hands over the steering wheel and then press the horn before cranking. If they didn't do this, the horn would honk and it wouldn't crank.

I was always impressed with the Pros as well. Great speaker system. I did at one point have two pro 10's in a sealed box as well and really liked them. I still have one of those subs in my garage, sold the other one a while back. I probably went in 98 or 99, they wanted pics of the install to basically see the quality of the install (ie see how everything was wired and how the extra battery was vented, etc). I was in the 301-600w class when I went. Those Boston pro's were what lead to my purchase of my current home speakers. The manager at the car audio shop got me a sizable discount on the home equipment from his Boston sales rep.

 

[Matt Werking]

Thanks Irvrobinson, thats helps alot, so would you say when you listened to fast car that the low bass notes blended in or stood out a bit or alot compared to the rest? just to clarify