Receiver vs. receiver with amp

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It consistently surprises me how many people believe that they need more watts per channel than they really do.

Well, that's the definition of an audiophile - people who own external amps whether the speakers need it or not.

 

[Irvrobinson]

It's been a long time since I've done that, but yes I have. Is it required before I can enjoy a system? Or can I use my own judgement on what I need and why? People get way to worked up on specs, it becomes a religion of sorts, now don't take me wrong specs are a important basis, but that's all they are, and they are abused, misused, exaggerated much like statistics are. Of course don't tell a statics major that or they blow a gasket or I guess in this case a driver. LOL

In woofers the harder you can drive them the better they perform at low frequencies, within reason, and if they have a high BL they can image very well at close to peak Xmax. Your weighted-not-weighted averaging isn't going to tell the difference between noise and a nice tight clean imaging, nothing is perfect especially measuring unless you go to great extremes and have a anechoic chamber for testing. And no I didn't test my system in a controlled environment either.

Actually, none of your guessing about my reasoning applies. I'm not a spec fanatic, but I do very much like measurements.

Frankly, I just thought your 124db comment was bullshit, and I was wondering if you ever measured your actual peak listening level. You'd suffer hearing loss and ringing in your ears if you were even 20 feet from speakers generating peaks of 124db. That's in the loudness vicinity of firing a 9MM pistol at an indoor shooting range, and when I do that I wear foam ear plugs under 3M industrial noise-suppression headsets, and I can still tell each shot is very loud.

I know about subs (like JBLs) that have 132db of output at one meter, but mostly they're intended for sound reinforcement in large venues, like for rock bands, and at 100 feet away they generate levels a lot lower than 132db. Some consumer subs claim 132db+ too, but I seriously suspect that in most homes levels like that might have structural implications. In addition to making people nauseous. ;-)

And woofers do not sound better the harder you drive them. Their distortion goes up the harder you drive them. What sounds better is that you perceive low frequencies better at higher loudness levels due to the Fletcher-Munson curves for human hearing sensitivity at different frequencies.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Irv, I doubt you ever tried your test with a pair of Martin Logan CLS's !

Nominal Impedance 6 ohms, Sensitivity 85 dB/w/m, recommended power 20W - 320W.

It's kind of funny how the ML speaker engineers who designed and built these speakers think that you could get away with only 20W of power. They must think that most people won't crank up the volume above 90dB.

 

[Mikado463]

No. I haven't. I have heard them though. As I've posted elsewhere I'm tempted to have an affair with full-range 'stats. I'm just not sure I want to spend what it takes to marry a pair though.

I have run some measurements on ML hybrids, and I didn't find them to be all that different from cone speakers.

And remember, I'm just doing simple math; I'm not measuring voltage at the speaker terminals. (Too risky with other people's speakers.) I'm just taking the manufacturers claim for loudness at 2.83v at one meter, adjusting for the claimed impedance, adjusting for two speakers, and then using the distance from the speakers to the listen seat and the formula for the fall-off of loudness for distance, measuring the loudness at the listening seat, and calculating an estimation of the amplifier output power to achieve it. I also measure at one meter to check my work, and what that says is that I'm over-estimating by at least 1db due to room gain. But if I told some folks what I really think, that they're peaking at maybe 16 watts when it is very loud at the listening seat, and the average is less than 2 watts, at least for any music I'll test with, I'd have no credibility at all.

understood, remember stats ohm ratings is inverse to cones, at the top end (out of this old mans hearing capability) the drop down to around 1 ohm

 

[Mikado463]

funny you s

Nominal Impedance 6 ohms, Sensitivity 85 dB/w/m, recommended power 20W - 320W.

It's kind of funny how the ML speaker engineers who designed and built these speakers think that you could get away with only 20W of power. They must think that most people won't crank up the volume above 90dB.

Funny you say that, years ago I listened to a pair of CLS II's being driven by a pair of Mcintosh 275's that really sounded quite good. I suspect the the softer clipping of the tubes helped in rolling off the top end

 

[lovinthehd]

Nominal Impedance 6 ohms, Sensitivity 85 dB/w/m, recommended power 20W - 320W.

It's kind of funny how the ML speaker engineers who designed and built these speakers think that you could get away with only 20W of power. They must think that most people won't crank up the volume above 90dB.

Somewhat doubt the engineers get to do the wattage ratings OTOH some would probably be happy with 20W, others would still want 1000W....

 

[Irvrobinson]

understood, remember stats ohm ratings is inverse to cones, at the top end (out of this old mans hearing capability) the drop down to around 1 ohm

Yeah, I know. It's just not a big deal for well-designed solid-state amps though. When I spent an afternoon listening to the ML Renaissance the dealer used a solid state amp I don't even remember, and the speakers sounded fine. The couple of times I've heard Sound Labs the owners had solid state amps.

 

[Mikado463]

Yeah, I know. It's just not a big deal for well-designed solid-state amps though. When I spent an afternoon listening to the ML Renaissance the dealer used a solid state amp I don't even remember, and the speakers sounded fine. The couple of times I've heard Sound Labs the owners had solid state amps.

Great speakers, I listened a few months back to the 13a's driven by a McIntosh 452, a very nice match.