Vertical center channel?

[yepimonfire]

Agreed, especially from a horn-loaded tweeter. Perhaps later on in the summer I can measure one of the Klipsch RP speakers if I can borrow one from someone.

Here you go. 1m measurments, on axis and 90 degrees off axis. After the crossover frequency the spl of the horn is 6dB down, but the response is almost exactly the same, like I said, nearly identical from 1.8khz to 14khz up to 90 degrees off axis.

 

[yepimonfire]

It seems by your account that any driver loaded into a horn or wave guide will overcome the limitations of said driver, which isn't true. I completely understand where your thoughts are but it's not universal in theory. I can reference several domes, plannars and ribbons that can be well implemented via crossover that have nice vertical dispersion and good off axis response. The "horn" doesn't make the design, but the designer.

Of course they won't, plenty of horn designs have awful off axis response, but the horns used in modern klipsch speakers are modeled after the same design used by Roy Delgado for the k402 horn, which was designed to have controlled directivity across the entire frequency range, and a constant coverage pattern (i.e. the coverage pattern doesn't flip from 90x60 to 60x90 at different frequencies, which is an issue in some horn designs).

I'm sure there are plenty of non waveguided/horn loaded speakers that maintain an excellent coverage pattern across the frequency range, however, the laws of physics naturally cause a driver's dispersion to narrow as it the wavelengths get closer to, or smaller than the diameter of the driver.

 

[everettT]

Can you gate the measurements, use the same calibrated level, and then look. What were your measurements taken with? I don't see any nearly identical in the below graph.
Methodology needs to be consistent. The on axis looks greatly smoothed in relation to the off.

Here you go. 1m measurments, on axis and 90 degrees off axis. After the crossover frequency the spl of the horn is 6dB down, but the response is almost exactly the same, like I said, nearly identical from 1.8khz to 14khz up to 90 degrees off axis.

 

[ATLAudio]

Here you go. 1m measurments, on axis and 90 degrees off axis. After the crossover frequency the spl of the horn is 6dB down, but the response is almost exactly the same, like I said, nearly identical from 1.8khz to 14khz up to 90 degrees off axis.

I've never seen ANY Klipsch speaker (scroll down to see RF-7II) perform the same on axis and 90 deg off axis. You do realize that 90 degrees off axis means horizontally beside the speaker? I assume you did these in room, so I don't know what the room is doing either. Anechoically, nearly all Klipsch speakers I've seen measured begin to fall off past 15-30 degrees off axis.

Moreover, switch to 1/12 octave smoothing, not psycho-acoustic. Not that it matters, assuming linear smoothing

In room 1m measurements aren't of any use, measure at your MLP and 2-3' to each side. That said, I've done three measurements at 12' across my front couch LRC, and my RC-52II has measured pretty consistently at all seats. I'd say within +/-5dB. Sound is well anchored.

 

[TheWarrior]

I've never seen ANY Klipsch speaker (scroll down to see RF-7II) perform the same on axis and 90 deg off axis. You do realize that 90 degrees off axis means horizontally beside the speaker? I assume you did these in room, so I don't know what the room is doing either. Anechoically, nearly all Klipsch speakers I've seen measured begin to fall off past 15-30 degrees off axis.

Moreover, switch to 1/12 octave smoothing, not psycho-acoustic. Not that it matters, assuming linear smoothing

In room 1m measurements aren't of any use, measure at your MLP and 2-3' to each side. That said, I've done three measurements at 12' across my front couch LRC, and my RC-52II has measured pretty consistently at all seats. I'd say within +/-5dB. Sound is well anchored.

To be thorough and prove a point, one would want both 1m and LP measurements to differentiate the contributions of the room, above 200 hz. And yes 1/12 does matter because we are talking about in room measurements, you need to at least be able to rely on the sensitivity of the mic and not software. Which yepimonfire has stated previously is only calibrated to 14khz which kinda makes any measurement meaningless. $75 for a UMIK is a small price to pay to actually know what you're listening to and how to improve it. Which I want to keep reiterating is the only reason we're all responding this way, is to help!

 

[yepimonfire]

I've never seen ANY Klipsch speaker (scroll down to see RF-7II) perform the same on axis and 90 deg off axis. You do realize that 90 degrees off axis means horizontally beside the speaker? I assume you did these in room, so I don't know what the room is doing either. Anechoically, nearly all Klipsch speakers I've seen measured begin to fall off past 15-30 degrees off axis.

Moreover, switch to 1/12 octave smoothing, not psycho-acoustic. Not that it matters, assuming linear smoothing

In room 1m measurements aren't of any use, measure at your MLP and 2-3' to each side. That said, I've done three measurements at 12' across my front couch LRC, and my RC-52II has measured pretty consistently at all seats. I'd say within +/-5dB. Sound is well anchored.

Well, even if it were room reflections, a similar response indicates wide dispersion at all frequencies. This measurement was taken exactly 1m to the left of the right channel, at 90°.

You are correct about the reference II series. The RB-10 bookshelves I have roll off sharply in a similar fashion to the RF 7II, and have poor response past 30°. I am referring to the newly designed Reference and reference premier series, which uses an entirely different horn geometry. Since what they done is proprietary, all I can do is say the reference II start out slotted, and rapidly expand like a tractrix curve, its not 100% tractrix, but much different from the new horns. The new horns start out conical, and only have a rapid tractrix like expansion near the mouth. There are grooves running diagonally through each corner.

See the attached photos.
Compare those to photos of the redesigned cinema horns, which measure -6dB flat up to 14khz as well 90° off axis.

Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk

 

[TheWarrior]

which measure -6dB flat up to 14khz as well 90° off axis.

Please stop. You have no idea what you're saying.

You've already verified that your mic should not be performing any measurements in previous posts by stating it isn't calibrated above 14khz. And then your supposed 90deg off axis measurement has hugely superior bass to the on axis measurement. Not sure why you don't see the flaw in that.

 

[ATLAudio]

@yepimonfire

"Well, even if it were room reflections, a similar response indicates wide dispersion at all frequencies."

No, room reflections indicate a room making reflections, not a speaker creating a wide dispersion.

"This measurement was taken exactly 1m to the left of the right channel, at 90°."

In room with a mic which you readily admit can't calibrate past 14k. Moreover, your measurements indicate low end boost which means your measurement wasn't done correctly. Can you show me another professional off axis measurement where this occurs? This is all very problematic for the point you're trying to make, I'm sorry you can't see why.

"You are correct about the reference II series. The RB-10 bookshelves I have roll off sharply in a similar fashion to the RF 7II, and have poor response past 30°."

The Reference Premier wave guide isn't the panacea you think it is. As a matter of fact (when properly tested) it behaves the same as the Reference II waveguide. While this test doesn't show performance past 30 deg it's clearly on the same approach.

"I am referring to the newly designed Reference and reference premier series, which uses an entirely different horn geometry."

Nope, the wave guides have the same tractrix geometry, but with different approach to the same formula.

"Since what they done is proprietary"

The tractix formula is not proprietary.

"all I can do is say the reference II start out slotted, and rapidly expand like a tractrix curve, its not 100% tractrix, but much different from the new horns. The new horns start out conical, and only have a rapid tractrix like expansion near the mouth. There are grooves running diagonally through each corner."

Both are tractix, 100%. LOL Please stop... I know what they look like, and while you might find it fascinating, and revealing of something revolutionary, it's not.

"Compare those to photos of the redesigned cinema horns, which measure -6dB flat up to 14khz as well 90° off axis."

According to your test, got it. Others are trying to help you, but you keep dismissing it with a sophomoric understanding of horn design and testing methods, which is kinda sad. Sorry bud, you can imagine that you're living in sonic nirvana all you want, but you're only fooling yourself. Even with the new RP waveguide, at 90 deg you'll see about a 15 dB roll off at 14khz when properly tested.

 

[everettT]

I bought a Honda fit because it has the same Performance as a NSX . The designer was the same so it has too.....

 

[TheWarrior]

I bought a Honda fit because it has the same Performance as a NSX . The designer was the same so it has too.....

Funny, but ok, lets not beat this person up.

I appreciate yepimonfire's consistent posting and determination. There is just clearly a need for more of an education in to sound reproduction. I'm certainly far from being 'educated' myself.

Marketing has played a positive, yet detrimental role in all of our understandings of how sound is reproduced. And only a few brave engineers have had the gall to convince higher ups to spend the money on genuine, unbiased research. I cite Floyd Toole and Harman like I know them, because I have had the privilege of doing so. That doesn't change the extraordinary amount of time needed to absorb a lifetime of work like it does with Floyd's books.

And to keep this silly thread remotely on topic, a vertical center that is as closely designed to the L+R speakers is actually the ideal. Horizontal designs only came to be out of domestic needs to fit a speaker in to an entertainment center.

 

[ATLAudio]

I'm just not sure what marketing effort is fostering confusion or ignorance in this case. Klipsch does have edgy marketing with "pissing off the neighbors" and what not, but I forgot where they suggest their speakers can be heard 90deg off axis as the OP suggests.

Whether a speaker manufacturer relies on the best available double-blind journal-published unbiased research or just tosses pickles at the windshield of marketing research whims, the only thing that should matter is how the gear sounds to the buyer. However, please don't come on the boards showing poorly tested results and making completely unsubstantiated claims to further justify the purchase.

That said, three of the same speaker is ideal for LRC. The more you move away from that will give some level of detriment but, I've found that usually, it's not worth losing that much sleep over.

 

[TheWarrior]

That said, three of the same speaker is ideal for LRC. The more you move away from that will give some level of detriment but, I've found that usually, it's not worth losing that much sleep over.

It's a timbral issue that goes beyond orientation of drivers, or even the composition of the drivers. Directivity, or the differences between on axis vs off axis sounds is what mostly defines timbre.

But also, some of us lose sleep over not knowing if the 'ideal' has been reached...