Speaker wire gauge question

[Bengi010]

Hi, let me thank you in advance for any replies. I'm on a fact finding mission and want some expert opinions. The situation is this: I work for a builder in upstate NY as an assistant project manager. It's a relatively new builder who has never done an AV prewire before and it got botched. Instead of hiring someone who does this for a living they asked the electrician to run speaker wire to in ceiling speakers and hdmi and CAT6 to various rooms. The issue is that instead of following instructions the electrician tried to pinch pennies and used some random 22 gauge wire for the speakers that he got from a "buddy down the road." As you can imagine the client is less than pleased. So my question to you is how can I concretely explain to my employers that there is in fact a tangible difference between 16g and 22g wire and that it is really not ok. I don't know the exact lengths of the runs but I'd estimate the closest are 10-15' and the furthest maybe 30'. So can you tell me what effect this will have on the system in a way I can explain to someone who has no clue about audio?

 

[shadyJ]

Here is an article for you. If you use wire that is too thin, it will have too much resistance and that will attenuate the treble frequencies, lower the overall volume, and also cause distortion. This might not be bad if the system is just some overhead PA speakers or something crude, but for a high fidelity system, it can be pretty bad.

If I had an installer run speaker cable through the walls, I would be pissed if I found he used 16 AWG, nevermind 22 AWG. 22 AWG in my walls? That installer is a dead man.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Like Shady said, in this situation with ceiling speakers it isn’t going to matter a lot. Most aren’t exactly hi-fi. Regardless, in the future they should not use anything less than 16 ga.

By the way, I hope the electrician at least used CL-2 or -3 wire rated for in-wall use? Zip cord is against most building codes.

Oh, and HDMI definitely has distance limitations. Bet your employer didn’t know that?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Irvrobinson]

Hi, let me thank you in advance for any replies. I'm on a fact finding mission and want some expert opinions. The situation is this: I work for a builder in upstate NY as an assistant project manager. It's a relatively new builder who has never done an AV prewire before and it got botched. Instead of hiring someone who does this for a living they asked the electrician to run speaker wire to in ceiling speakers and hdmi and CAT6 to various rooms. The issue is that instead of following instructions the electrician tried to pinch pennies and used some random 22 gauge wire for the speakers that he got from a "buddy down the road." As you can imagine the client is less than pleased. So my question to you is how can I concretely explain to my employers that there is in fact a tangible difference between 16g and 22g wire and that it is really not ok. I don't know the exact lengths of the runs but I'd estimate the closest are 10-15' and the furthest maybe 30'. So can you tell me what effect this will have on the system in a way I can explain to someone who has no clue about audio?

You can tell your employer that if I was the customer they would be communicating with my attorney. I would also be hiring another electrician to inspect the entire wiring installation to find out what else that incompetent fool screwed up. For example, did he really install CAT6? Which HDMI? Did he cut corners on anything else, like installing too few circuits? An under-rated panel? Get the ground scheme right? Usually when you find one screw-up this big there are others too.

 

[highfigh]

Here is an article for you. If you use wire that is too thin, it will have too much resistance and that will attenuate the treble frequencies, lower the overall volume, and also cause distortion. This might not be bad if the system is just some overhead PA speakers or something crude, but for a high fidelity system, it can be pretty bad.

If I had an installer run speaker cable through the walls, I would be pissed if I found he used 16 AWG, nevermind 22 AWG. 22 AWG in my walls? That installer is a dead man.

There's nothing wrong with 16 ga for speakers unless the power to them will be very high or the runs will be very long. For all other applications, it works fine. The highs will not be attenuated unless the length is over 50' and even then, it's not likely to be noticeable unless you can do an A:B comparison. I know someone who did TEF analysis on various speaker wire gauges when this debate first began and since he has engineered many recordings and was doing live sound, he needed to know. 16ga was no better or worse than 14 or 12ga at 50'.

 

[highfigh]

Hi, let me thank you in advance for any replies. I'm on a fact finding mission and want some expert opinions. The situation is this: I work for a builder in upstate NY as an assistant project manager. It's a relatively new builder who has never done an AV prewire before and it got botched. Instead of hiring someone who does this for a living they asked the electrician to run speaker wire to in ceiling speakers and hdmi and CAT6 to various rooms. The issue is that instead of following instructions the electrician tried to pinch pennies and used some random 22 gauge wire for the speakers that he got from a "buddy down the road." As you can imagine the client is less than pleased. So my question to you is how can I concretely explain to my employers that there is in fact a tangible difference between 16g and 22g wire and that it is really not ok. I don't know the exact lengths of the runs but I'd estimate the closest are 10-15' and the furthest maybe 30'. So can you tell me what effect this will have on the system in a way I can explain to someone who has no clue about audio?

Wire gauge charts and code requirements are available online- the owner needs to get their head in the game before something bad happens. The cable needs to be installed correctly, too- no sharp bends, no excessive pulling, no kinks, twists, never run it parallel to power wiring, etc.

If this owner has been operating on this kind of tight budget, run. Run fast. You do not want to be involved with someone who operates their business this way because the stink will be on you, too.

I worked for someone who didn't know the code and conventions for low voltage cabling and we just did it right, then let him complain about the amount of cable we used. The wire and labor was paid for by the customer/client, so there was no reason to complain. If he wants to survive, he needs to do this right and, having done low voltage for decades, I can tell you "He's doing it wrong!".

He needs to hire others to do this, or pay for the proper training if it will be done by an employee. I would be very hesitant to hire an electrician because few actually know that high voltage wiring practices are acceptable for low voltage installation.

 

[-Jim-]

Gents,

First of all I'm a licensed Electrician (4 year apprenticeship with 6 weeks of trade school each year) with a couple years extra of Technician level training towards an Electronic Technologist Degree. Slamming the "electrician" is like saying all doctors are quacks, and all lawyers are ambulance chasers, etc. Certainly it sounds like this one wasn't up to speed, but I often run into what we in the trade call "running shoe electricians" who make a living do residential installs => cheap and cheerful - to minimum standards because that's what general contractors will pay; and the only job they can find.

Never mind those who do renovations, and try to get the homeowner to "save money" and allow them to get by without an electrical permit from the local jurisdiction. With a permit at least the local inspector is supposed to come by an ensure a safe install, to at least National and Regional Code Standards. Doesn't sound like there were any checks and balances here.

I've met Audio Specialist installers who learned their stuff from Car Stereo places, Best Buys, etc., and frankly I wouldn't let them install a TV on a table for me. Similarly I've met Cable, Satellite, and Telephone guys with the same low technical training who can only run the cable their company hands them for the job. Of course there are those who can do superior work, if allowed, and a few who move away from run and gun type operations.

Running Speaker, CAT, and HDMI cables are simple routine functions. With a little reading and common sense most homeowners should have no problems doing it themselves. And a competent licensed Electrician should be able to do it in his sleep.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Slamming the "electrician" is like saying all doctors are quacks, and all lawyers are ambulance chasers, etc. Certainly it sounds like this one wasn't up to speed, but I often run into what we in the trade call "running shoe electricians" who make a living do residential installs => cheap and cheerful - to minimum standards because that's what general contractors will pay; and the only job they can find.

And a competent licensed Electrician should be able to do it in his sleep.

Just looking over the posts again, we're not slamming all electricians. Well, perhaps highfigh got a little cynical with his final comment. Indeed, I have a licensed electrician I use for various jobs, and I consider him quite excellent. He does exactly what I ask for with quality work and a reasonable price. This particular one described in this thread just seems to be clueless.

 

[Speedskater]

It's ceiling speakers, so the situation can be rescued without ripping the walls down. You can convert to a 70 Volt system. Need to buy transformers at both ends. Under $10 at each speaker and under $50 at each amplifier output.

 

[mtrycrafts]

..., and also cause distortion. ....

How and why is that?

 

[shadyJ]

How and why is that?

Thin wire is more susceptible to electrical interference than thick wire. To be sure, the thinness of the speaker wire would not cause distortion products like say IMD or HD, however the attenuation of high frequencies is certainly a distortion, albeit a linear distortion.

 

[Speedskater]

Thin wire is more susceptible to electrical interference than thick wire..................................

That is incorrect. If anything thin wire is less susceptible to RFI. Because the conductors may be closer together and have more twists.

 

[BMXTRIX]

It's ceiling speakers, so the situation can be rescued without ripping the walls down. You can convert to a 70 Volt system. Need to buy transformers at both ends. Under $10 at each speaker and under $50 at each amplifier output.

70v is the audio equivalent of saying "Just modulate that video onto channel 3".

70v systems are pretty much exclusively for low-volume background music and should not be used as a part of any decent home audio installation work. I've used tons of 70v and 8-ohm systems over the years, and for the lobby of an apartment building, 70v is great. But, even in the larger enclosed spaces, like a leasing office, once the volume is raised just a bit, the shortcomings of 70v really start to come into play.

I do respect the concept of what electricians do, but when provided with a wiring diagram I have yet to have a single one wire things properly who did not directly work for an A/V company. Granted, I've only worked with a couple dozen over the years. I'm sure there are some guys out there who do electrical who are well versed in A/V and can handle more complex systems, I just haven't run into them. Especially on the residential side.

This situation certainly is not one I would accept as a homeowner. The reasons stated are quite clear and the articles support the situation.

I'm not sure how it is supposed to be addressed post-drywall. But, whomever pulled the cable incorrectly is the one who is most responsible unless the instructions were not actually clear. I know when I do installations, I use 14AWG cable almost everywhere. It costs.. what? $50 more for a roll. Maybe adds 10% to the wiring job? In a home that will stand for decades? Well worth it. The planning is the most critical stage and someone is specifically responsible for getting it right. That person should not be the homeowner.

 

[2channel lover]

You can tell your employer that if I was the customer they would be communicating with my attorney. I would also be hiring another electrician to inspect the entire wiring installation to find out what else that incompetent fool screwed up. For example, did he really install CAT6? Which HDMI? Did he cut corners on anything else, like installing too few circuits? An under-rated panel? Get the ground scheme right? Usually when you find one screw-up this big there are others too.

Well now...don't get crusty....lol.

@Bengi010

I worked for a builder for several yrs. His 1st mistake was hiring an electrician to run low voltage...I'm pretty sure this electrician wasn't doing the prewire for security or I hope he wasn't. There are plenty of low voltage contractors, your builder should know that.

My guess is he tried to save a buck, which most builders are noted to do. Bottomline...the gauge wire (if thinner than 16) he installed is most likely not in wall rated and will not pass code, so this is going to have to come out before the rock goes up.

Shady touched on it already, but 16 CL2 is the bare minimum you can put behind a wall here in GA and we don't have the strictest building codes. If it were my house and you've got really long runs, I'd want 14 CL2.

 

[2channel lover]

70v is the audio equivalent of saying "Just modulate that video onto channel 3".

70v systems are pretty much exclusively for low-volume background music and should not be used as a part of any decent home audio installation work. I've used tons of 70v and 8-ohm systems over the years, and for the lobby of an apartment building, 70v is great. But, even in the larger enclosed spaces, like a leasing office, once the volume is raised just a bit, the shortcomings of 70v really start to come into play.

I do respect the concept of what electricians do, but when provided with a wiring diagram I have yet to have a single one wire things properly who did not directly work for an A/V company. Granted, I've only worked with a couple dozen over the years. I'm sure there are some guys out there who do electrical who are well versed in A/V and can handle more complex systems, I just haven't run into them. Especially on the residential side.

This situation certainly is not one I would accept as a homeowner. The reasons stated are quite clear and the articles support the situation.

I'm not sure how it is supposed to be addressed post-drywall. But, whomever pulled the cable incorrectly is the one who is most responsible unless the instructions were not actually clear. I know when I do installations, I use 14AWG cable almost everywhere. It costs.. what? $50 more for a roll. Maybe adds 10% to the wiring job? In a home that will stand for decades? Well worth it. The planning is the most critical stage and someone is specifically responsible for getting it right. That person should not be the homeowner.

My brother-n-law is a licensed electrician and he does some new construction work for builders...I've helped him out in a pinch a few times. Every now and then one will ask him to pull low voltage and every time he will ask for the drawings showing the specs. If they don't have one, he won't take the job.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Well now...don't get crusty....lol.

Too late!

 

[2channel lover]

Too late!

Well...I tried!

In this particular case, the electrician just went on the cheap. I would always hire a LV contractor because that's just what they do all day.