What is a $5000 Streamer doing that a Computer / DAC combo isn't

[jinjuku]

I keep seeing these $4-$7k streamers and for the life of me trying to figure out what they are doing vs a $500 NUC type computer and $500 DAC aren't.

 

[slipperybidness]

I keep seeing these $4-$7k streamers and for the life of me trying to figure out what they are doing vs a $500 NUC type computer and $500 DAC aren't.

Making someone rich.......

Seriously, what are they doing that an RPi and the appropriate HAT isn't?

I guess the real advantage of an off the shelf solution is that it is plug and play. I think I'm OK with tinkering and a little frustration and learning along the way for ~$4800 savings

 

[Bucknekked]

I keep seeing these $4-$7k streamers and for the life of me trying to figure out what they are doing vs a $500 NUC type computer and $500 DAC aren't.

jinjuku
I think the responses will tend to fall in to two camps: those who own an expensive streaming device and will want to give it praise and then those who don't and will want to hurl stones. There's a small group in the middle that have sound vault devices that don't cost a bunch, but still provide great function.

I am a computer straight to an AVR with a brand new DAC in it user. I wasn't starting from scratch so it seemed the best, most economical path. I had several MAC computers at my house, I had AVRs, so I made the marriage. It works fantastic. I perceive no shortcoming compared to a media streamer.

I did audition in a showroom a couple of those expensive streaming devices. I listened to a Linn Majik DSM streamer. They go for about $5,000 bucks. It sounds great. But, so does a computer--->AVR with a DAC. It will manage a music library. So will an AVR--->DAC if you do the work. They look sweet sitting in your rack with the other components (no sense doing anything other than components if you're spending $5K for your streamer).

I don't know of any particular advantage of a well built streamer over doing it with a computer and external DAC except the streamer is all hardware and perhaps is easier to maintain over time. Computers have software and apps and that means regular SW maint and updates and patches. The media streamer does updates with firmware on a much more drawn out schedule. For someone with no computer skills, a streamer may seem less trouble.

I would be interested in other opinions. This is just my own opinion. The sound vault folks have a strong solution too, and they are affordable.

 

[slipperybidness]

jinjuku
I think the responses will tend to fall in to two camps: those who own an expensive streaming device and will want to give it praise and then those who don't and will want to hurl stones. There's a small group in the middle that have sound vault devices that don't cost a bunch, but still provide great function.

I am a computer straight to an AVR with a brand new DAC in it user. I wasn't starting from scratch so it seemed the best, most economical path. I had several MAC computers at my house, I had AVRs, so I made the marriage. It works fantastic. I perceive no shortcoming compared to a media streamer.

I did audition in a showroom a couple of those expensive streaming devices. I listened to a Linn Majik DSM streamer. They go for about $5,000 bucks. It sounds great. But, so does a computer--->AVR with a DAC. It will manage a music library. So will an AVR--->DAC if you do the work. They look sweet sitting in your rack with the other components (no sense doing anything other than components if you're spending $5K for your streamer).

I don't know of any particular advantage of a well built streamer over doing it with a computer and external DAC except the streamer is all hardware and perhaps is easier to maintain over time. Computers have software and apps and that means regular SW maint and updates and patches. The media streamer does updates with firmware on a much more drawn out schedule. For someone with no computer skills, a streamer may seem less trouble.

I would be interested in other opinions. This is just my own opinion. The sound vault folks have a strong solution too, and they are affordable.

You make some valid points, and I think a key word is that a streamer may seem less trouble.

My main HT rig is also where my main Tower PC resides. It has been there for 15 years, I was waaaaay ahead of the curve on that decision. Hooked to the AVR via HDMI, controlled with a small keyboard/trackpad combo. Works flawlessly. My tower is also nice, but it is not one of these flashy gamer rigs, it is a very utilitarian look (just how I like it).

My man cave 2 channel rig has a RPi streamer. I have a high quality (audiophile ) DAC HAT for it, but I hit some difficulties during my configs and haven't gotten back around to getting it all working properly yet. However--there is a HUGE advantage on the RPi setup where you feed the DAC input directly off of the I2S protocol! That is absolutely the most desirable topology for several reasons.

However, I also have a Emo XDA-1 DAC, so I am simply feeding that the RPi signal via USB as a stop-gap until I feel like working on the DAC HAT again. (I despise USB connections of any type for several personal experience reasons).

Another HUGE advantage of the RPi is that the software is all open source and has an excellent support community. I also really like that I can interface that device with any other device on my network with a browser, I can simply type the IP address into the browser and control the RPi streamer from any decive.

So, if you have any desire to tinker and learn, and save some coin along the way, I cannot over-recommend the RPi for these types of applications (and many, many others too, i.e. my retro arcade cab!).

EDIT:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I²S

I²S (Inter-IC Sound), pronounced eye-squared-ess, is an electrical serial bus interface standard used for connecting digital audio devices together. It is used to communicate PCM audio data between integrated circuits in an electronic device. The I²S bus separates clock and serial data signals, resulting in a lower jitter than is typical of communications systems that recover the clock from the data stream.

 

[ski2xblack]

Even with an step by step guide for complete idiots like me on how to DIY the equivalent of, say, one of those ripper/storage/network players like a bluesound vault, I'm probably too lazy to actually do it. I'm bad enough in the procrastination department with the more fun DIY projects, like speakers.

So I guess I'm saying that there is a market for such things. I'm a potential customer.

 

[jinjuku]

Here is what I know:

I've had an AMD Brazos (E350) based computer running almost 24/7 from 2009 with Windows 7 Pro. I have updates turned off so that whole cycle of updates and restarts etc has been zero issue.

I don't use if for general purpose computing so the machine is basically as snappy as they day I put it in.

I remote control it with JRemote on a tablet.

I have way more flexibility than any purpose streamer I've seen to date.

 

[jinjuku]

Even with an step by step guide for complete idiots like me on how to DIY the equivalent of, say, one of those ripper/storage/network players like a bluesound vault, I'm probably too lazy to actually do it. I'm bad enough in the procrastination department with the more fun DIY projects, like speakers.

So I guess I'm saying that there is a market for such things. I'm a potential customer.

If you would spend $5000 or even $2000 on a streamer you could pay a computer person a few hundred to turnkey a system for you.

 

[slipperybidness]

If you would spend $5000 or even $2000 on a streamer you could pay a computer person a few hundred to turnkey a system for you.

Even a re-purposed old computer should do the job.

I just don't see the value in these fancy streamers. I guess a good old PC just isn't a fun way to spend $

 

[Pogre]

Even a re-purposed old computer should do the job.

I just don't see the value in these fancy streamers. I guess a good old PC just isn't a fun way to spend $

That's what I do. I have a retired laptop that I use with Foobar2000 and control it with a remote app from my tablet. No external DAC. AFAIK, I'm using the DAC in my receiver? Is that correct, or am I using my lappy's DAC? I have the lappy connected to my receiver via HDMI.

I have so much to learn on this front. Right now my setup is very basic and simple.

 

[slipperybidness]

That's what I do. I have a retired laptop that I use with Foobar2000 and control it with a remote app from my tablet. No external DAC. AFAIK, I'm using the DAC in my receiver? Is that correct, or am I using my lappy's DAC? I have the lappy connected to my receiver via HDMI.

I have so much to learn on this front. Right now my setup is very basic and simple.

HDMI provides a digital signal to the AVR. Therefore the AVR DAC is doing the conversion to analog.

We see it too often, someone will go buy a fancy sound card, then use the digi out form the sound card, thereby completely bypassing any advantages of a fancy sound card.

 

[Pogre]

HDMI provides a digital signal to the AVR. Therefore the AVR DAC is doing the conversion to analog.

We see it too often, someone will go buy a fancy sound card, then use the digi out form the sound card, thereby completely bypassing any advantages of a fancy sound card.

I totally get what you're saying and thanks for the clarification. I was hoping my lappy just passed the signal through in digital and my receiver was doing all the converting. It seems the best way to go on a budget. I didn't want to be relying on the DAC in my lappy. It's got a few years on it and certainly was not designed with hifi in mind.

 

[slipperybidness]

I totally get what you're saying and thanks for the clarification. I was hoping my lappy just passed the signal through in digital and my receiver was doing all the converting. It seems the best way to go on a budget. I didn't want to be relying on the DAC in my lappy. It's got a few years on it and certainly was not designed with hifi in mind.

DAC ICs have been a commodity item for over a decade now. I would not worry too much about the chip itself.

The issue with computers is that the chassis is a noisy place and the power supplies for off-the-shelf computers is often just barely marginal.

Marginal power supply and Electro-magnetic noise, it just is not the ideal conditions for an analog signal. Digital signals are orders of magnitude more immune to noise. If you must do the D/A conversion inside the PC or laptop chassis, then you would prefer to at least have a shielded sound card.

Reminder / Side Note--When we talk about digital 0s and 1s, we are very much over-simplifying the signal. The better description is "low voltage signal" and "high voltage signal". So there is actually a range of voltages that will qualify as a 0 and a higher range that will qualify as a 1. This is where a poor power supply could come into play, but in practice it may not be too likely to be a problem.

The better solution is to get that signal outside of the chassis in the digi domain, then do the analog conversion.

 

[jinjuku]

DAC's are able to reject all of this with just a modicum of attention paid to the ANG vs DNG ground planes.

I used an EMU 1212M PCIe internal pro-audio card and the noise floor was below 118dB on it so it concurs with your statement.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I keep seeing these $4-$7k streamers and for the life of me trying to figure out what they are doing vs a $500 NUC type computer and $500 DAC aren't.

What is a $25K Rolex Submariner in 18K Gold doing that a $50 Timex doesn't? I'm sure the Rolex out-sells all of the expensive streamers combined on a unit-volume basis.

I'd like to have that new $20K Mark Levinson 519 CD player / streamer, not that I'd pay for it. But if one appeared in my system magically I'd sure like to have it. It beats the heck out of the aesthetics, ergonomics, and form factor of any computer & DAC. Maybe if I was $50M richer.

 

[Bucknekked]

What is a $25K Rolex Submariner in 18K Gold doing that a $50 Timex doesn't? I'm sure the Rolex out-sells all of the expensive streamers combined on a unit-volume basis.

I'd like to have that new $20K Mark Levinson 519 CD player / streamer, not that I'd pay for it. But if one appeared in my system magically I'd sure like to have it. It beats the heck out of the aesthetics, ergonomics, and form factor of any computer & DAC. Maybe if I was $50M richer.

irvrobinson
You are on to the crux of the idea: what determines value in non essential or luxury purchases?

Watches are not so different from audio gear in that they stratify much the same way : lots of volume under $250 bucks per item and a declining volume but rising price all the way up the food chain. Value in the eyes of the target market drives the price, not value in the eyes of the total market.

Audio buffs as a whole won't buy $5k streamers anymore than the average guy won't pay what a bona fide horologist will for a fine watch. Is a Rolex Submariner worth the price? I have owned two of them. They didn't tell time any better than my Casio. But unlike the Casio, when it came time to pay for a guided hunt, I sold a Rolex and that asset paid for a once in a lifetime hunt. Many luxury items fall in to the asset class and not just an expense.

I think the discussion about why luxury goods command the prices they do is an interesting way to study human behavior. We are all fascinated by something that sparkles or shines, or makes a joyous noise.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Here's what about $210 in hardware gets if you looking for Hi-Fi streamer on a shoestring budget:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/03/howto-building-and-installing-raspberry.html
and here on how it measures vs $750 dac alone:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/10/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-hifiberry.html
and even more expensive dac here:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/05/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-touch-music.html

 

[Bucknekked]

Here's what about $210 in hardware gets if you looking for Hi-Fi streamer on a shoestring budget:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/03/howto-building-and-installing-raspberry.html
and here on how it measures vs $750 dac alone:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/10/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-hifiberry.html
and even more expensive dac here:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/05/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-touch-music.html

I have always wanted to do a raspberry pi project since I first saw them years ago. I just never could match up a need with a project. This may be the right match. Is there a way to do HDMI out instead of USB?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I have always wanted to do a raspberry pi project since I first saw them years ago. I just never could match up a need with a project. This may be the right match. Is there a way to do HDMI out instead of USB?

Yes, all RasPI have HDMI out and then you don't need the DAC hat module,
But then you won't need the touchscreen either since you won't be able to get both touchscreen and hdmi running at same time without really serious tweaking (if possible at all)
https://www.element14.com/community/thread/49012/l/how-to-run-hdmi-and-official-raspberry-pi-display-dsi-simultaneously?displayFullThread=true

Maybe all you need is RasPi 3+ kit which includes raspi3 board, case, power adapter and maybe sd card. Just add a wireless keyboard - Any bluetooth model would work out of the box
then all you need is this:
https://www.amazon.com/LoveRPi-Raspberry-Complete-Starter-Kit/dp/B01IYC0LT0/ref=sr_1_9?srs=5811495011&ie=UTF8&qid=1495335185&sr=8-9&keywords=Raspberry+Pi+3b+kit

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Software is free:
https://volumio.org/get-started/

See guide here on which tool to use (Win32 Disk Imager) to burn img file onto a memory card for RasPi:
https://www.howtogeek.com/191054/how-to-create-bootable-usb-drives-and-sd-cards-for-every-operating-system/

 

[slipperybidness]

Here's what about $210 in hardware gets if you looking for Hi-Fi streamer on a shoestring budget:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/03/howto-building-and-installing-raspberry.html
and here on how it measures vs $750 dac alone:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/10/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-hifiberry.html
and even more expensive dac here:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/05/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-touch-music.html

Giggity!

Thanks for those links! I had not seen this at all. I will have to read up on this one.

Another thought on the RPi, you could always have multiple micro SD cards and simply swap out the card for different applications! So, you pop out the card that has the OS for the Audio Streamer, and pop in the card with your retro gaming setup, plug in your USB controller, and play games for the day instead of streaming tunes.