Why limit a subwoofer

M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
When you said you run yours in direct mode a few weeks ago I decided to try that in my little part of the world. I liked it. I'm still doing it. I had to fool with the subwoofer a bit to get it to work in direct, but hey, its working now better than ever.
Are you using 2 channel as well? Or is yours surround?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
When you said you run yours in direct mode a few weeks ago I decided to try that in my little part of the world. I liked it. I'm still doing it. I had to fool with the subwoofer a bit to get it to work in direct, but hey, its working now better than ever.
I think if you select "stereo" and turn off audyssey, it will do the same thing.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I think if you select "stereo" and turn off audyssey, it will do the same thing.
Auto EQ has been off in mine since I got it. But from what I understand, direct mode turns off all other parasitic drains on the system, even the display in pure direct, so all the power goes to your amplifiers. Also, if there is any noise caused by these other functions, that goes away by default as well, IIRC.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I had not remembered how much so until I trimmed them off at 80hz and did without it for awhile while I was still subwoofer happy, and then switched them to large again.
There's a lot of mid bass frequency above 80hz. I think technically bass is anything below 250hz, right? I think midrange is between 250-500hz if I'm not mistaken. that would mean your speakers would be doing the bulk if the mid bass work even with a crossover of 80 hz? Definitely if you trim it at 40 and just use the sub for gentle support.

All this using lfe only, of course.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Is it possible that running in direct mode, may be the difference in what proponents of integrated amps are talking about with regard to sound quality, provided your amplifier section of your AVR is worth a damn to begin with?
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
There's a lot of mid bass frequency above 80hz. I think technically bass is anything below 250hz, right? I think midrange is between 250-500hz if I'm not mistaken. that would mean your speakers would be doing the bulk if the mid bass work even with a crossover of 80 hz? Definitely if you trim it at 40 and just use the sub for gentle support.

All this using lfe only, of course.
Yes, I believe so. But, these Tempests have 12" woofers. I think somehow this may be more of an issue with bookshelf type speakers that typically have much smaller woofers. But these Tempests sound righteous throughout most of their range. They were actually doing quite well on their own before I got a sub. Is half of why I held off building one for awhile.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Well I'm definitely a current century room correction, dynamic eq kind of guy, but I understand wanting it kept pure. You can dial it in so that the sub is barely doing anything if that's what you want. When I listen in direct mode I just set it to stereo and turn Audyssey off in the menus. I suppose running it lfe+mains and dialing the frequency using your amp on your sub is fine, but in that scenario I'd want the subs barely doing anything. I'd use a very low crossover setting and just support the mains for the very deepest frequencies.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Well I'm definitely a current century room correction, dynamic eq kind of guy, but I understand wanting it kept pure. You can dial it in so that the sub is barely doing anything if that's what you want. When I listen in direct mode I just set it to stereo and turn Audyssey off in the menus. I suppose running it lfe+mains and dialing the frequency using your amp on your sub is fine, but in that scenario I'd want the subs barely doing anything. I'd use a very low crossover setting and just support the mains for the very deepest frequencies.
That's basically what I am doing, although, I really could care less if it's pure or not. It's just the best sound so far. And then you have to wonder why do they include this setting on their AVRs? In some respects, I believe this also tends to show the quality of the actual amplifier section.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I have the sub coming in at around 50hz. The mains are rated down to 40, with perhaps 42 being more consistent in that range. I used the levels that shadyJ recommended trying earlier in this thread and so far, that works the best with the most kinds of music I listen to, some that I haven't tried it with yet. Also, I notice the sub output is more consistent regardless of volume played at. Before, the sub output was going up substantially and I was having to adjust the gain to keep it from reaching into the clipping range. I haven't messed with the amp much since, but I did store the settings in the amp and named it so I remember where I was when I tried it.
The f3 of your speakers is 37hz per the measurements provided at diysg, hard to know what your in-room f3 is though. So you're overlapping a bit in frequency response between sub and speaker. Not exactly direct....stereo using small/crossover would be more "direct". It's a preference thing, though, just have to find how to implement what you prefer on the other hand (which again makes it hard for others to provide you with some sort of eq settings to follow, different rooms, gear, tastes....).

I'd match the level of your speakers to your sub and control any changes in level to the sub via the avr, primarily for consistency in adjustment.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
The f3 of your speakers is 37hz per the measurements provided at diysg, hard to know what your in-room f3 is though. So you're overlapping a bit in frequency response between sub and speaker. Not exactly direct....stereo using small/crossover would be more "direct". It's a preference thing, though, just have to find how to implement what you prefer on the other hand (which again makes it hard for others to provide you with some sort of eq settings to follow, different rooms, gear, tastes....).

I'd match the level of your speakers to your sub and control any changes in level to the sub via the avr, primarily for consistency in adjustment.
I think that must have changed recently because I could have sworn that was 40hz initially.

Here is a quote from the same website, and I remember reading some discussions on this speaker to this effect.
This combination yields some of the flattest response I have seen in a high efficiency design. The speaker has an in-phase fourth order acoustic crossover set at 1.3kHz, yielding a sensitivity of 98dB/2.83V/Meter. The Tempest is vented and provides bass extension to 40hz (-3db) with a little extra kick in the mid and upper bass range. On a lot of rock and full scale orchestra music the Tempest is a very satisfying and exciting loudspeaker. When paired with high output subwoofers the Tempests are really hard to beat.

The Fusion-12 was designed to perform best when paired with a subwoofer that can handle the lower frequencies.
ETA: I do see where it says 37 on the spec list.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I think that must have changed recently because I could have sworn that was 40hz initially.

Here is a quote from the same website, and I remember reading some discussions on this speaker to this effect.
Don't know if it's a change, the -3dB of 37hz I took off the diysg description just before posting. Not a big difference, nor a huge overlap.

ps should temper that a bit since we have no idea of your sub level to speaker level match or where you tweaked from there...
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Don't know if it's a change, the -3dB of 37hz I took off the diysg description just before posting. Not a big difference, nor a huge overlap.

ps should temper that a bit since we have no idea of your sub level to speaker level match or where you tweaked from there...
Yeah. I saw it there too right after you posted. It surprised me for some reason. That's why I searched the intro to the Tempest to at least see if I read it elsewhere on that site. 40 was stuck in my head.

Still, there was a lot of emphasis in discussions about the net with this speaker needing a sub. I realize there are other reasons for including one, but I had just come down off of the large JBLs that rate down to the mid 30's, and I remember thinking after trying the Tempests out that for discussions claiming these speakers struggle down into the lower 40's that they dig pretty darn deep. Also, this is the first two way speaker I have ever owned. I thought that may have something to do with it.

I will order a mic this week and try some different things and see what that tends to prove.

On another note, one of the downfalls of this design is it's tendency with being unforgiving with poorer recordings. Initially, I found that to be true. But since using direct mode, and source EQ, I have found it to be much more forgiving. Especially with vocals.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah. I saw it there too right after you posted. It surprised me for some reason. That's why I searched the intro to the Tempest to at least see if I read it elsewhere on that site. 40 was stuck in my head.

Still, there was a lot of emphasis in discussions about the net with this speaker needing a sub. I realize there are other reasons for including one, but I had just come down off of the large JBLs that rate down to the mid 30's, and I remember thinking after trying the Tempests out that for discussions claiming these speakers struggle down into the lower 40's that they dig pretty darn deep. Also, this is the first two way speaker I have ever owned. I thought that may have something to do with it.

I will order a mic this week and try some different things and see what that tends to prove.

On another note, one of the downfalls of this design is it's tendency with being unforgiving with poorer recordings. Initially, I found that to be true. But since using direct mode, and source EQ, I have found it to be much more forgiving. Especially with vocals.
I want better than an f3 of 20hz and at very significant spl with minimal distortion and few full range speakers can do that, let alone position the sub properly away from the needs of the L/R speaker positions, thus subs for me and not worry so much about it. YMMV.

Which mic are you ordering? Planning to use it with REW?
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Yeah, I did, but I intended to write 'first overtone'. I was still on my first cup, AKA 'daily training wheels'.

Did you do much with Altec 417B?
We were much more into JBL, Electro-Voice, and Celestion than Altec for those applications, although we dealt with them a bit, mostly because someone specifically wanted them. With regard to Altec, there was some activity with the coax drivers, but in the end we came to prefer Tannoy.

About five years ago I bought a semi-pro Espresso machine (Saeco Aroma) and with the first two cups of Cappuccino, the cobwebs clear in record time.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Well, I am glad to see this thread has evolved into something interesting, even if it took a little work to get there.

Some comments without quoting the original posts:

Yes, enclosure construction (and with low frequencies, the specific design chosen) is critical to any driver's performance. It's a system; the driver alone is only part of the equation and we rarely use true infinite baffles or piston driver dipoles. But that's the starting point; everything comes from that essential set of characteristics.

It's true that this forum (and Audioholics in general) is more attuned to Home Theatre than most. It does colour people's replies to threads. I am not into Home Theatre much ... for one, the cheapskate in me bristles at the cost I would have to outlay to get the same resolution I can achieve in two channels. For another, given I have but one main system, I will always compromise to the HiFi side over the HT side.

I am suspicious of DSP, not because I don't think it works (it does) but because I prefer elimination or minimization to correction. Something I learned a very long time ago is in audio, your issues often center around translations in format, as you are going to introduce aberrations inherent in the translation, added to the problem you were trying to address, which themselves now need to be corrected or dealt with. So, given a choice, if you can keep it analog (it starts analog, it ends analog, and those are not optional) then work that to it's natural conclusion first and see if that does the trick. **

DSP is easier, but it's not automatically "better". Analog is hard, no question, but in most cases your problem can be addressed in that domain. If not, find out why and try again.

It's similar with my approach to Car Audio ... I try to re-create the Sound Quality (SQ) I achieve at home, rather than rattle the paint off the trunk and pop the glass in the back window. So although I do use Low Frequency extension, I take advantage of the Room Gain in an automobile to flatten the LF rather than artificially boost it (the path to high SPL is in the subsonics). Subjectively, I find in a vehicle that a little LF bump helps, with emphasis on "a little"; there are high levels of vehicle-generated LF noise that needs to be overcome (if you ever have taken an unweighted frequency spectrum measurement of a car simply going down the road, you know what I'm talking about).

Living as I have, with one foot in the HiFi world and one in the live music / music production one, and with finally settling on a very different professional career outside of audio* but one where noise was an issue to be aware of, I am acutely aware of the dangers of high SPLs in car audio, where you are, in a very real way, sitting inside a pressure vessel.

I too was once young and stupid, and back in the day when the usual practice was to generate the sound from stage rather than a house PA, one common practice was to go up to the system and listen to each 15" driver to see which one was buzzing or dead. If you think about it for a minute, that means SPLs in the 120 or more dB range six inches from your ear from the working drivers. Not a bright idea, but it was the way it was done.

I was an early user of foam hearing protection (all you could get then), and if I didn't have that, I'd take cigarette filters and use them instead (Everybody smoked then; doctors smoked in the hospitals, everyone smoked on aircraft, let alone elsewhere indoors. finding two fresh cigarettes to break up was never a problem). Every dB helps.

Today, I can still hear steady state sine waves into near 18 KHz, I can hear "that noise" the flyback transformer supplies make on CRT TVs or monitors sitting at the viewing position (something many here will never experience).

I was part of the first generation that truly was exposed to high SPLs in concert settings. When the Beatles played Shea Stadium it was little more than a bunch of 30-watt VOX amps arrayed on stage (no, I wasn't there; I was five when they played Ed Sullivan).

Ten years later, at a concert in 10th grade consisting of Manfred Mann, Savoy Brown and a third warmup band that didn't yet have an album out and nobody had heard of yet, Kiss grandstanded with the loudest set I had ever heard. At 19, I had quit half way through the 12th grade to concentrate on an audio career, I landed a job by annoying the owner to death, part time, building cable. Two years later I was a partner. Five years after that, I was a freshman in University.

When I see kids today with In-Ear Monitors (IEMs) and headphones using them long term, often with supplemental amplification ... some people wear them on the entire job shift ... and when a car driving down the street announces itself with pressure waves ... well, all I can say is those people won't like what happens next.

* A lot of hours around loud piston, turboprop and jet engines. It did involve long spells between contracts, so when I was back at home, I would get calls to work shows right to recently, where my health introduced roadblocks. I had, for a time, a studio in the top floor of my house. I still have some audio clients from more than 30 years ago who call for consultation.

** It's not simply a matter of avoiding a translation to digital and back again. If you record a live set to magnetic tape, that's a translation. If you transcript a master tape to vinyl, that's a translation. And so on. Each translation introduces unique distortions. We work to minimize these distortions to what we hope are inaudible levels, but sometimes we simply cannot, and at that point we fall back to Band-Aids®, which themselves introduce their own problems that need to be addressed. Sometimes the Band-Aids® stack up, always a bad idea.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
They kick ass. I really could not ask for a better speaker at that price point and well beyond, when comparing them to some of my friends systems, who have many more thousands of dollars and a lot of 'fixes' employed in their systems. One friend brings CDs and beer over here to listen to music. He's constantly blown away by them and he's an audio snob with deeper pockets than mine. He wants a pair. His wife won't go for it. He's already blown the wad on what he has.
Well, I guess he has no choice but to hide something and lie about having sold it. :D
 
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