Why limit a subwoofer

[MrBoat]

If your question about frequency response for a sub going to 1KHz, are you referring to the Eminence Delta or the Ultimax? If so, you aren't considering the fact that it was never designed for home use and it's definitely not designed to be used as a subwoofer. Does it produce notes that fall in the range of a sub? Under the right circumstances, definitely. Will it happen in a small enclosure? Absolutely not, unless it uses a long, large diameter vent and the signal going to it is limited. This driver is geared toward guitar and bass players who need mid-range, as well. Stick this in a sealed 4-12 cabinet and it works great for a Marshall head OR a bass because A) a Marshall head doesn't produce a lot of bass and B) four drivers in that arrangement act like a larger diaphragm.

This is about the Delta Pro12a right? If so, look at the attachment and you'll see that they handle a fair amount of power, but not if the tuning and box aren't right.

https://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_Pro_12A_cab.pdf

Some people are obsessed with hitting the lowest frequencies- I think they may come from car audio, but that's not the same listening or acoustical environment, by any stretch of the imagination. Most music and sound tracks don't use anything below 20Hz but it's a good number to use as a lower goal because that's one of the the theoretical limits of human hearing.

Something you might like to know- bass players blow speakers more often because they don't understand what is being sent to them than because of high power. In fact, some bass amplifiers have a built-in HP filter at about 35Hz specifically because it's possible to produce frequencies in the sub-20Hz range, even if the instrument's tuning isn't that low. If you have heard of 'beat frequency', this is the reason- play two notes that are close together and you can produce not only the intended notes, you can also produce the sum and difference frequencies which, if the original notes are G (on the E string) and A (open A string), the difference is 6Hz and a lot of people use the beat frequency to tune their instruments. A member of a bass player's forum is also an Electrical Engineer and he offers a product that connects between the instrument and the effects and amp- it filters sub-35Hz frequencies at a steep slope in order to allow himself (originally) to play at high SPL without puking his speakers and when others heard the difference (actually, there's no difference, other than the amplifier and speakers being happier) and saw that the cone's excursion was greatly reduced, he started to receive orders. Many people who design speaker enclosures ignore the fact that below the port tuning frequency, the woofer isn't controlled well, if at all.

Not the Eminence. The Ultimax. The Eminence driver and the sub are actually fine. The Tempests are actually more capable than they need to be, since they were designed to work with a sub, ideally. The mid bass on the Tempests rocks. Is why I am letting them run full range even with the sub. It's why I can get by with a smaller sub, in a sealed enclosure for 'music only.' I have no interests in surround sound or HT.

ETA: This is because of the rather broad brush that people tend to apply to subwoofers. I could not find any real detailed information. It was difficult to find out which DSP functions of the amp apply to a broader range of subwoofer use beyond the lowest frequencies and movies.

 

[highfigh]

Not the Eminence. The Ultimax. The Eminence driver and the sub are actually fine. The Tempests are actually more capable than they need to be, since they were designed to work with a sub, ideally. The mid bass on the Tempests rocks. Is why I am letting them run full range even with the sub. It's why I can get by with a smaller sub, in a sealed enclosure for 'music only.' I have no interests in surround sound or HT.

I saw the posts about the Tempest when they were originally designed- it was kind of a group effort. The response looks like what a lot of well-regarded speakers produced in the '60s and '70s.

 

[MrBoat]

I saw the posts about the Tempest when they were originally designed- it was kind of a group effort. The response looks like what a lot of well-regarded speakers produced in the '60s and '70s.

They kick ass. I really could not ask for a better speaker at that price point and well beyond, when comparing them to some of my friends systems, who have many more thousands of dollars and a lot of 'fixes' employed in their systems. One friend brings CDs and beer over here to listen to music. He's constantly blown away by them and he's an audio snob with deeper pockets than mine. He wants a pair. His wife won't go for it. He's already blown the wad on what he has.

 

[shadyJ]

So with all this said, does anyone here actually explore the entire capability of their subwoofer drivers capabilities? Does anyone ever try to see what audio skills they have beyond that of knowing their way around the auto functions of their AVRs? When people come in and ask for solutions to a problem with bass management, and the common cure tends to revolve around recalibration with yet another piece of equipment, or what essentially can amount to doing the same thing over and over that did not cure the problem in the first place, is that always the final answer?

I fixed my buddy's ''too bright'' speakers. He had condemned horn speakers entirely and basically dismissed a $1000.00 pair of tower speakers to the overflow of his garage. According to a rather broad consensus of the internet, horn speakers are bright, or even harsh. It had never occurred to him, or his AVR, the 'experts' at Best Buy, to instead, EQ the source. Why? Because it's too simple and is often not included with much of the source equipment with any real fine detail and is rarely ever really discussed.

Does this happen with subwoofers too? Is this why we may also need 10's of thousands of dollars for room treatments?

What is the entire capability of a subwoofer driver's capability? A subwoofer driver, by definition, is only intended to play low frequencies. You could put one in a full range speaker design and maybe let it play higher, if it is well integrated to the midwoofer, but that is tricky, because you don't want to overemphasize the low frequencies in vocals and dialogue. It will make voices sound boomy.

By the way, room treatments can not help subwoofer frequencies.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Afaik, treatments are pretty effective at reducing low end ringing which will clean up the sound.

 

[MrBoat]

What is the entire capability of a subwoofer driver's capability? A subwoofer driver, by definition, is only intended to play low frequencies. You could put one in a full range speaker design and maybe let it play higher, if it is well integrated to the midwoofer, but that is tricky, because you don't want to overemphasize the low frequencies in vocals and dialogue. It will make voices sound boomy.

By the way, room treatments can not help subwoofer frequencies.

I don't know what the entire capability of a subwoofer driver is. Apparently though, it's nowhere near the upper reaches of the stated frequency response.

 

[ski2xblack]

Does anyone ever try to see what audio skills they have beyond that of knowing their way around the auto functions of their AVRs?

Sure, but it really demands going down the ocd rabbit hole a bit further than you've ever expressed interest in going. And even if you go full OCD, there is no guarantee the results will be dramatically different, much less "better". (I've used the Tempests with Marantz AVR with Audyssey, and the stereo rig using REW for ears and a Yamaha SP2060 for manual calibration. Being a fully OCD Audioholic, I prefer the manual method, but not sure I would inflict that tedium upon others!)

 

[MrBoat]

What is the entire capability of a subwoofer driver's capability? A subwoofer driver, by definition, is only intended to play low frequencies. You could put one in a full range speaker design and maybe let it play higher, if it is well integrated to the midwoofer, but that is tricky, because you don't want to overemphasize the low frequencies in vocals and dialogue. It will make voices sound boomy.

By the way, room treatments can not help subwoofer frequencies.

This is kind of why I asked in the first place. Also, to perhaps try to identify a certain driver's capabilities, or even quality within the ranges it is designed to work.

For all I knew, a driver with a higher rated freq response could have some other types of tuning possible, even with regard to the mechanics of the thing or the shear mass of it and all of it's moving parts.

Take, for example, an idle subwoofer driver that has essentially completely come to a stand still mechanically. No frequencies are being applied to it. Then suddenly there is. It's going from zero to say 30 in a millisecond, or maybe even from a rebound to 30 forward in a millisecond, or even a second, for that matter. Is it not possible, that a resonant higher frequency, one that may not be exactly audible with regard to sub-bass frequency, be used as a pre-charge, or buffer of sorts, or even as part of the actual suspension to maybe tighten it up a bit?

 

[MrBoat]

Sure, but it really demands going down the ocd rabbit hole a bit further than you've ever expressed interest in going. And even if you go full OCD, there is no guarantee the results will be dramatically different, much less "better". (I've used the Tempests with Marantz AVR with Audyssey, and the stereo rig using REW for ears and a Yamaha SP2060 for manual calibration. Being a fully OCD Audioholic, I prefer the manual method, but not sure I would inflict that tedium upon others!)

It does not hurt to know the manual aspect, even with just understanding the automatic. I started with this manually. I had a lot of years into learning it. It's basically how I am using it now. I enjoy doing it that way and it actually still works.

Dramatically different? Perhaps not. But it does open up a lot more possibilities with different kinds of equipment, and that of which that is not colored by automatic features, just for starters. Not so good for the salesmen and the job security of the myriad of specialists it takes for just about everything we touch these days, but can be a good path for those who can't afford every new feature that comes out, or that hope to get a real, long term value out of their equipment in the future.

Now, if you start to talk about the manual approach, or even running your speakers in direct mode, the general consensus these days is that you are likely creating something horrible or doing without. Hi-fi existed before, with a lot less.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I don't know what the entire capability of a subwoofer driver is. Apparently though, it's nowhere near the upper reaches of the stated frequency response.

I think having such a wide frequency response just means there are more suitable applications for the driver. It may also speak to its linearity, and why it's suitable for many applications. Outside the "box"...

 

[shadyJ]

This is kind of why I asked in the first place. Also, to perhaps try to identify a certain driver's capabilities, or even quality within the ranges it is designed to work.

For all I knew, a driver with a higher rated freq response could have some other types of tuning possible, even with regard to the mechanics of the thing or the shear mass of it and all of it's moving parts.

Take, for example, an idle subwoofer driver that has essentially completely come to a stand still mechanically. No frequencies are being applied to it. Then suddenly there is. It's going from zero to say 30 in a millisecond, or maybe even from a rebound to 30 forward in a millisecond, or even a second, for that matter. Is it not possible, that a resonant higher frequency, one that may not be exactly audible with regard to sub-bass frequency, be used as a pre-charge, or buffer of sorts, or even as part of the actual suspension to maybe tighten it up a bit?

I see what you are saying, but that sort of thing just is not needed. The motion of the driver is fast enough to keep up with the signal. As long as it can track the signal reasonably well- and this includes attacks and decays- there is nothing else it needs to do. We wouldn't want it to play stuff outside of its intended band, because it simply is not very good at that. Also, you wouldn't want to give it stuff outside of the signal it is being fed, because more motion does not do it any favors with respect to fidelity. It would only increase harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion. The less the drivers have to do, the greater linearity than can operate with.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Now, if you start to talk about the manual approach, or even running your speakers in direct mode, the general consensus these days is that you are likely creating something horrible or doing without. Hi-fi existed before, with a lot less.

Actually I feel like more purists would say Direct is the only way to listen. That means no subs(yes I know yours are active, and still don't know why lol), or EQ for that matter. If you really want to go full OCD and know what all your dsp is doing, you'll need to start measuring. Not saying this because I don't believe that you hear what you hear, but people hear differently from day to day, and I personally like to see on a graph when I do something like adding EQ filters why I like, or don't like something. I also think it's important when so much of this has focused on the bass playback in your system. For example, you are running your mains full range, and also using a sub. Wouldn't it be nice to see what effect changing something as simple as the XO has. By raising or lowering it, your changing the combined low end response, which is a different reaction to changing the XO in a system that rolls the mains off at the XO point. Fwiw, my own kick drums are tuned around 40hz, I've played bass guitars in different tunings like drop D and 5strings which go to about 30hz. We may hear a lot of the upper harmonics, but there are lower ones too. There ya go. Just.02 to add to the pile.

 

[MrBoat]

Actually I feel like more purists would say Direct is the only way to listen. That means no subs(yes I know yours are active, and still don't know why lol), or EQ for that matter. If you really want to go full OCD and know what all your dsp is doing, you'll need to start measuring. Not saying this because I don't believe that you hear what you hear, but people hear differently from day to day, and I personally like to see on a graph when I do something like adding EQ filters why I like, or don't like something. I also think it's important when so much of this has focused on the bass playback in your system. For example, you are running your mains full range, and also using a sub. Wouldn't it be nice to see what effect changing something as simple as the XO has. By raising or lowering it, your changing the combined low end response, which is a different reaction to changing the XO in a system that rolls the mains off at the XO point. Fwiw, my own kick drums are tuned around 40hz, I've played bass guitars in different tunings like drop D and 5strings which go to about 30hz. We may hear a lot of the upper harmonics, but there are lower ones too. There ya go. Just.02 to add to the pile.

I'm not a purist and actually far from it or, that doesn't really matter to me. To my ears, direct mode sounds better with the main speakers. To the contrary, I am more likely what would be considered a practical minimalist. I like to exhaust all of the known possibilities before giving up on something. Not doing so seems wasteful to me.

I can even understand why people adhere to a measurement system. It's just another thing. I have nothing against it. I'll probably even end up there myself, eventually.

 

[lovinthehd]

So did you ever confirm you're overlapping bass frequencies with LFE+Main with your direct mode sub setup in the avr?

I have played with my subs a lot as far as different crossovers as well as eq modes and ways of positioning subs, etc. I don't see how anyone can recommend a blanket eq setting to you, though let alone one valid for music vs "HT". Everyone has different tastes in not just music but playback on a home system (which really doesn't always compare well to a pro live venue type setup) and my house curve may not be yours (let alone specific dsp setup for your Behringer iNuke amp). It's a good thing to do to understand your own gear and measurements are a surer way to "see" what's going on than the brain/ear interface (altho I'm not saying discard the brain/ear input, just help it along with something more substantive and repetitive and shareable like measurements can provide).

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So did you ever confirm you're overlapping bass frequencies with LFE+Main with your direct mode sub setup in the avr?

I have played with my subs a lot as far as different crossovers as well as eq modes and ways of positioning subs, etc. I don't see how anyone can recommend a blanket eq setting to you, though let alone one valid for music vs "HT". Everyone has different tastes in not just music but playback on a home system (which really doesn't always compare well to a pro live venue type setup) and my house curve may not be yours (let alone specific dsp setup for your Behringer iNuke amp). It's a good thing to do to understand your own gear and measurements are a surer way to "see" what's going on than the brain/ear interface (altho I'm not saying discard the brain/ear input, just help it along with something more substantive and repetitive and shareable like measurements can provide).

This is kind of an extension of what I was thinking. Since the room effects the sound at least as much as he speakers, measuring the response would tell him where to do what. Especially when overlapping the low end.

 

[MrBoat]

So did you ever confirm you're overlapping bass frequencies with LFE+Main with your direct mode sub setup in the avr?

I have played with my subs a lot as far as different crossovers as well as eq modes and ways of positioning subs, etc. I don't see how anyone can recommend a blanket eq setting to you, though let alone one valid for music vs "HT". Everyone has different tastes in not just music but playback on a home system (which really doesn't always compare well to a pro live venue type setup) and my house curve may not be yours (let alone specific dsp setup for your Behringer iNuke amp). It's a good thing to do to understand your own gear and measurements are a surer way to "see" what's going on than the brain/ear interface (altho I'm not saying discard the brain/ear input, just help it along with something more substantive and repetitive and shareable like measurements can provide).

I have the sub coming in at around 50hz. The mains are rated down to 40, with perhaps 42 being more consistent in that range. I used the levels that shadyJ recommended trying earlier in this thread and so far, that works the best with the most kinds of music I listen to, some that I haven't tried it with yet. Also, I notice the sub output is more consistent regardless of volume played at. Before, the sub output was going up substantially and I was having to adjust the gain to keep it from reaching into the clipping range. I haven't messed with the amp much since, but I did store the settings in the amp and named it so I remember where I was when I tried it.

 

[Pogre]

I don't remember if you posted this here, but have you ever just set it up with lfe only and a crossover of 50hz? Or 80? Did you sat you tried some room correction software and didn't like what it did? Sorry man, I didn't keep up with this thread very well.

 

[Bucknekked]

I'm not a purist and actually far from it or, that doesn't really matter to me. To my ears, direct mode sounds better with the main speakers. To the contrary, I am more likely what would be considered a practical minimalist. I like to exhaust all of the known possibilities before giving up on something. Not doing so seems wasteful to me.

I can even understand why people adhere to a measurement system. It's just another thing. I have nothing against it. I'll probably even end up there myself, eventually.

When you said you run yours in direct mode a few weeks ago I decided to try that in my little part of the world. I liked it. I'm still doing it. I had to fool with the subwoofer a bit to get it to work in direct, but hey, its working now better than ever.

 

[MrBoat]

I don't remember if you posted this here, but have you ever just set it up with lfe only and a crossover of 50hz? Or 80? Did you sat you tried some room correction software and didn't like what it did? Sorry man, I didn't keep up with this thread very well.

I started out using CD Stereo, the LFE+Main, Speakers set to small, crossed over at 80hz, then 60, 40, 100 etc. It was ok. Then I set the Denon to CD direct and liked what I heard. Also tried the speakers set to Large. None of which has been bad, just good and better, if that makes sense. I love the sound of the main speakers. The mid bass on those is beautiful.

 

[MrBoat]

I love the sound of the main speakers. The mid bass on those is beautiful.

I had not remembered how much so until I trimmed them off at 80hz and did without it for awhile while I was still subwoofer happy, and then switched them to large again.