Why limit a subwoofer

highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If that's 41hz, then OMG, wtf am I doing trying for the low 30's for the music I listen to?

Finally, I'm not intent to find out the hard way. Just curious beyond what has turned into the "only" way. I managed to get some pretty good responses to my question, regardless.

My speakers, by today's standards, are too big (thankfully) for my room and my subwoofer is too small, yet it sounds beautiful. I dared to play the speakers full range for approximately 600 hrs and analyze by ear, exactly how much ambient presence, or bass was missing, just like we used to do before separate subwoofers and computers became a thing. I lucked out somehow.

Some people add mid bass modules to their systems to fill in between the lacking mid bass of their too small main speakers and their subs. I just noticed that the freq responses of subwoofers varied a lot from one brand or type to the next. Thought it might be nice if a speaker that takes such a big amount of space in a system would do more than just sub bass.
Subwoofers are needed more for special effects in TV and movies or when the main speakers are unable to reach the lower frequencies. For most music and TV/Movie sound, reaching into the 30Hz-40Hz range is fine but for pipe organ, large symphonic bass drum and some synthesized sounds, that lowest octave really matters.

BTW- what you hear from a bass guitar when someone pucks the open E string is more of the first harmonic than the fundamental of 41.2Hz unless the instrument has that string is plucked at the 12th fret. If it has a low B string, it can go down to about 34 Hz but again, that won't be heard unless the string is plucked at the 12th because of the way a string vibrates.

This is the reason great mid-bass is more important than deep bass for a lot of applications and music styles.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Yes, but I think you have this backwards.

A small, fragile audiophile driver, one intended for use in small domestic speakers, is certainly not appropriate for music production, but that doesn't mean a robust, linear, high sensitivity driver is inappropriate for reproduction. If anything, the driver intended for production has serious advantages (pretty much everything but WAF).
No, I'm pretty sure I had it right the first time. When I had my store, we built clubs, recording studios, radio stations, and even a few stadium systems. We sold gear to Rock Bands that usually bought stuff from Music Stores. UREI, Tascam, Klipsch Pro (which most people have never heard of and wouldn't recognize their products) & Klipsch consumer, JBL Pro (different line than JBL consumer, which we didn't sell), Bryston, BGW, all the microphone brands, ... and we serviced and installed everything we sold, on the Pro side and the High End side. I've been inside those speaker boxes, I've re-coned those Altecs and Celestion woofers. We sold Auritone speakers ... a Pro Market component that was deliberately built to sound crappy to check how the mix or the broadcast would sound on a cheap AM radio.

Do not confuse robustness with wide frequency response, and don't assume every HiFi speaker has a stamped tin woofer with a weedy voice coil inside.

Companies build products to a standard that they set, for a market they intend to cater to. High efficiency is not the sole province of the Sound Reinforcement industry, nor is robustness.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
I'm not making any assumptions, just reflecting the reality of the situation, in the context of the design of OP's specific speaker.

That driver is not used up into cone break-up frequencies in his design. It is large (low imd), sensitive (~1/10 amp power required compared to a typical domestic driver), very linear over it's band pass, and brings dynamic range that a smaller driver, however expensive it is, could never compete with. From a speaker design perspective, that driver, employed as it is, has few weaknesses.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Okay, you made me look.

Fs of 51 Hz

An impedance curve that is below 8 ohms over 150 to 400 Hz.
Rising to 150 ohms at the Fs point, and about 28 ohms at the upper limit of about 4500 Hz

High Frequency response up-tilted relative to 1 KHz
A 4~5 dB peak at about 2500 Hz
Down 5 dB relative to 1 KHz @ 4500 Hz; down 10 dB @ 5 KHz

Relatively flat low end, down to 150 Hz; a dip of about 3 dB at around 225 Hz
Low/ mid response lightly shelved downward referenced to 1 KHz,

Down 5 dB at 80 Hz; Down 10 dB at 60 Hz; down 15 dB at about 45 Hz

99.2 dB 1W/1M with the speaker mounted in a true infinite baffle (back side is in another room than the measuring microphone).

1/6th inch Xmas
Paper cone, cloth double half-roll surround.
Close to 12" piston diameter.

Looks like a good sound reinforcement / guitar cabinet driver to me. Plays loud. Not much extreme low end, ideal for venue sound reinforcement. Elevated upper mids, ideal for guitar cabinet. Very smoothed factory response curve, so we can't really know how ragged the response is, but that is fairly common with loudspeaker manufacturers. Needs a big box to preserve the low frequency response if that is required.

I personally wouldn't use this driver for a home HiFi system, but if I were to, it's a near ideal candidate for subwoofer reinforcement.

-Eminence Design Documentation for DeltaPro12 driver:

" ...
Small Mid/Hi Sat Box or Hi Pwr Floor Wedge:
Displacement and thermally limited to 400 watts. Must use a 24 dB per octave high pass filter set to 100 Hz or higher to protect woofer from overexcursion.
-3 dB @ 86.52 Hz and 600 Hz; -12 dB @ 65 and 4 kHz
1-W SPL = 96.66 dB; 2.83-V SPL = 98.12 dB

Med Vented Cab.; Mid/High or Floor Monitor:
Displacement limited to 350 watts. Must use a 24 dB per octave high pass filter set to 70 Hz or higher to protect woofer from overexcursion.
-3 dB @ 72.38 Hz and 1.5 kHz; -12 dB @ 55 and 4 kHz
1-W SPL = 96.66 dB; 2.83-V SPL = 98.12 dB

Larger Vented Cab.; Med Pwr Full Range Use.
Displacement limited to 150 watts. Must use a 24 dB per octave high pass filter set to 50 Hz or higher to protect woofer from overexcursion.
-3 dB @ 60.03 Hz and 1.2 kHz; -12 dB @ 40 and 4 kHz
1-W SPL = 96.66 dB; 2.83-V SPL = 98.12 dB

Small Sealed Cab.; Hi Pwr Midrange or Vocal Wedge.
Limited to 300 Watts; use a steep high pass filter set to 150 Hz or higher.
-3 dB @ 119.2 Hz and 1.2 kHz; -12 dB @ 50 and 4 KHz
1-W SPL = 96.66 dB; 2.83-V SPL = 98.12 dB
..."

The difference in system SPL reflects 2.83V into the minimum impedance of 5.71 ohms vs 1W/1M/8 ohms. If you look at the enclosure cone excursion graphs, they are not kidding about the high pass filter. Excursions approaching a full inch at low frequencies in some cases, with an Xmas of a sixth of that. In other words, ignore the crossover filter and it's re-cone time.
 
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Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
...
BTW- what you hear from a bass guitar when someone pucks the open E string is more of the first harmonic than the fundamental of 41.2Hz unless the instrument has that string is plucked at the 12th fret. If it has a low B string, it can go down to about 34 Hz but again, that won't be heard unless the string is plucked at the 12th because of the way a string vibrates.

This is the reason great mid-bass is more important than deep bass for a lot of applications and music styles.
I think you meant second harmonic (H2); the first harmonic is the fundamental.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think you meant second harmonic (H2); the first harmonic is the fundamental.
Yeah, I did, but I intended to write 'first overtone'. I was still on my first cup, AKA 'daily training wheels'.

Did you do much with Altec 417B?
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
J2B, now that you've looked at the driver's raw performance, take a look at the results after the network's full bsc and contouring are taken into account. The OP's speakers are a prime example of deft employment of pro-audio drivers in a legit high fidelity speaker, and one that's still reasonably affordable.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
The argument here is strange, that a speaker has to be truly full range, with extension down to 20 Hz, to be high fidelity? I don't agree, since we have subwoofers, and these speakers are intended to be played with subs.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I see, well, yes if you're running Eminence drivers yes, they do have, and are designed to have, output into the midrange. But, they are not true HiFi speakers; they are Sound Reinforcement / Guitar Amp speakers (depending on model; I didn't look yours up) and often don't have particularly good extreme low bass response. In a live music situation, output below 100 Hz is a problem to be corrected, not a feature to be exploited, so most music speakers are designed to limit extreme Low Frequency output.

I don't mean to imply they are not good quality; quite the opposite. But they were designed to *create* sound, not *reproduce* sound, and there is a difference.

A Bass Guitar with standard tuning will have a Low E at about 41 Hz, but many players do not use standard tuning, and if you were to ask what frequency you would need to meet to be able to play back every bass guitar on the available music today, you would want to be flat into roughly 30 Hz. If you don't need the ability to play low synthesizer notes, or don't like Bach and won't be listening to Pipe Organ recordings, you could stop there. If you do want to play one or both of the above "exception" instruments, then you might even want to place your Low Frequency rolloff to begin as low as perhaps 16 Hz.

So, there is some method to the Subwoofer madness.

There is a corollary, though, and that is humans don't necessarily need to hear the fundamental with low bass notes; we can accept a resonant peak somewhere in the 2nd harmonic (2H) and sometimes 3rd harmonic (3H) range and enjoy the result. Say, the system reproduces mostly 82 Hz for your low E 41 Hz fundamental. That's how low-fi speakers, and more than a few HiFi speakers, still manage to produce a listenable result. A lot of smaller driver speakers ... you know, the ones with 4", 6" and 8" drivers we are suggesting would be best for mid-bass and above ... do exactly that, covering their inability to play true low bass notes.

I haven't suggested a subwoofer is necessary in a system, and certainly using 12" drivers in a full range system is one way to ameriorlate that situation. That might be assigned the task of the very lowest notes, or it might be asked to cover a wider range, but it's usually a matter of pick one, not both.

But just so you know, subs are not new to me, and I built my first subwoofer system in the 1970's. I've used 15", 18" and even the legendary Hartley 24" driver in some builds. Without seeing your speakers I am none the less confident that I've built ones that were bigger. We even built one where the entire basement was the inside of the enclosure, the subs firing into the floor of the room above.

That was a time when we did use large woofers in not just 3-way but also in 2-way systems, but it also was a time when good, synthetic cone 6 and 8" drivers from companies like Son-Audax and KEF were just entering the market.

What happened to me is what I'm suggesting you should consider ... that a great midrange, where perhaps 80% of the musical information lies, frees up the space for a great woofer. It was evident then, and has evolved since from black magic and a certain "art" in a speaker designer's skill set, to science. It is really not difficult to design a good DIY full range system today, although it does take effort, it's certainly within the realm of most relatively handy people's abilities if they apply themselves.

The point being, however that both drivers perform better than either would alone. Just some food for thought. And the jury was out, came back, and gave it's verdict a long time ago. It's really not even brought up anymore in serious loudspeaker design circles.

With regard to the size of subwoofers, they are today much, much more compact than what was achievable in the past for the same low frequency response. So, although relatively large, they are not large in the grand scheme of things. And if you get above perhaps 120 Hz, maybe even a little lower, you can do that in a box the size of a shoebox or smaller.

Nor do low frequency notes need to originate in front of you (or wherever the setup requires, such as a 5.x or 7.x, etc system) as your front stereo pair do. They are not directional, up to a point.

So, another reason why they are often recommended ... you can put them almost anywhere in the room, with certain limitations that are important but can be overcome with relatively small changes in location, up to about 80 Hz.

Anything above that frequency, and humans with both ears in functional condition will start to locate the source of the sound (direction). So your sub can't be off to one side AND have response above about 80 Hz (the exact number will vary depending on the crossover characteristics).

The smaller and less obtrusive the stereo main pair are, the easier they are to place. Placement is a critical criteria in system Sound Quality (SQ).

That makes a subwoofer with "satellites" a viable option for the modern home. Now, some people ... I suspect you are one ... don't have an issue with large loudspeakers in the room. Not everyone is lucky enough to be in that position. But it's just one more reason for the popularity of a 2.1 or larger system configuration.

Please note I am not referring to what are marketed as subwoofers; I am referring to actual subwoofers. There are a lot of products in the marketplace that are incapable of actual sub-bass reproduction (20~40 Hz) along with low bass that wear the name.

Advertising is a shady game. Somehow we aren't supposed to say "lies" out loud, when we are fed lies by copywriters. But that's the reality of the world we live in; the companies that are selling you products are not actually interested in your best interests, they are interested in converting your cash to their cash. Some do it more ethically than others, but fundamentally they are all engaged in the same game.

I have always said here, and elsewhere, that it's not my system, it's yours. That does not mean I won't give my honest advice, and the benefit of my experience, when asked and I feel willing to reply. I do ignore many, many posters here not because I'm trying to be rude, but because I am not interested in giving half an answer when I could give a full one. Doing so requires my attention, which is limited, as I do have a life. So every once in a while I'll engage in discussion with someone, such as yourself.

It does mean, however, that the ultimate judge of what is right for you is you. If you are happy, then you have achieved your objective. I just don't understand why you would ask a question you have no intention of considering answers to. You seem more interested in defending your ideas and the existing system you have rather than seeking answers regarding how to improve what you have. Maybe I am reading your responses wrong, but it seems to be that way.

"Main" (as in "primary") is used to refer to audio equipment; "Mains" ( plural form) refers to the AC wiring that runs through your home.

Everything has to be taken in context. There are people willing to trade extreme Low Frequency reproduction ability for some other aspect ... perhaps they want a killer midrange, use a full-frequency single crossover-less driver to achieve that, and are happy with the result.

Others ... especially those who want to combine a music and movie playback system into one ... want the widest frequency response from the bottom to the top with visceral power and are willing to give up that last tenth of detail that having crossovers in the system will tend to kill.

Neither is more "right" than the other, they are just different, and there are a dozen other system goals that compete with one another; give a little here, take a little there. Knowing what you want from the audio gear is the most important first step in building a system.

Many people have no idea what they want, so if offered advice is going to be any help at all, you have to start with helping them find that answer, because no system you build without that answer will be satisfactory (unless you just don't care).

I am not convinced you have answered that question yet, or if you have, you've kept it from us, which is a mistake.
It wasn't that I was unhappy with my sound, I was more perplexed as to the lack of discussion or, hands-on approaches with DSP and bass management for starters. ShadyJ caught it and offered some suggestions. I took his suggestions as a starting point. I wanted to play with the DSP of the sub's external amp with regard to sub woofer sound quality, or duty.

At the same time I was reading other discussions. It was very difficult to find anything that does not include HT. Even when you get someone who claims something like; "90% music," they're building in tuning that is trying for below 20hz as a goal. Just looking at the numbers, from a subwoofer newbie perspective, with the actual sub frequency range essentially being from say, 20-65hz, why does a sub woofer driver have a freq response up to 1000hz? Hence the initial question. Some subwoofer drivers freq response is much narrower say, 20-400hz. When we are crossing over systems on average of 60-100hz, these freq response numbers start to sound rather. . . .superfluous. Many subwoofer drivers are very powerful, well built drivers. Just seemed odd that so little is asked of it. Look at the size and complexity at some of the enclosures they are putting them in.

From my subwoofer newbie perspective, whenever you start using things to do multiple (movies and music) tasks, or more emphasis in a certain direction, there are trade offs elsewhere. This is with just about everything known to man and nature. To me, it looks as if the current trend is more towards a novelty of trying to brag about how low one can get a subwoofer to go and that is where the conversation seemingly ends. Very little about the fine tuning and actual sound quality above 30hz. Often times, when you look at the rest of the equipment they have listed in their signature line, you may notice that their main, bookshelf sized speakers, roll off at 60hz or above. How good is this often times, 'single' subwoofer that reaches below 20hz, or multiples located about the room or behind furniture at times, doing in the 30-80hz range? Do they just do well by default? Are they really picking up the detail of something like the roll off exchange from a fretless bass from the mains to the sub?

This thread was a starting point. It's hard to find detailed conversations about the fine tuning or people actually trying anything different, and even harder to find people who dare try to use their own ears. On the other hand, while trusting the numbers and current methodology, tons and tons of troubleshooting and dismissed equipment.

There wasn't a lot going on here on the forum. I wanted to have a discussion about subwoofers and DSP. I was curious of the full range capabilities of my subwoofer or subwoofers in general. I listen to what people here tell me. I even try what they suggest. I was hoping that perhaps maybe others with an external DSP amp for their sub might try exploring the settings and report back, just for the heck of it.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
All things considered, I would rather have the sub be able to play higher frequencies than 80 Hz than not. Some times they can do a lot better at 100 or 125 Hz than the bookshelf speakers I sometimes use. Yes, often the main speakers can dig down to 50 Hz, maybe 40, but they don't do that nearly as well as subs. Also, the subs can sometimes have a smoother response above 80 Hz than the main speakers.

By the way, very few subwoofer drivers will be able to play up to 1 kHz well. I don't know of any that could. The things needed to do to a driver to get it to play low frequencies well will adversely affect high frequency playback. There will always be trade-offs in design.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Subwoofers are needed more for special effects in TV and movies or when the main speakers are unable to reach the lower frequencies. For most music and TV/Movie sound, reaching into the 30Hz-40Hz range is fine but for pipe organ, large symphonic bass drum and some synthesized sounds, that lowest octave really matters.

BTW- what you hear from a bass guitar when someone pucks the open E string is more of the first harmonic than the fundamental of 41.2Hz unless the instrument has that string is plucked at the 12th fret. If it has a low B string, it can go down to about 34 Hz but again, that won't be heard unless the string is plucked at the 12th because of the way a string vibrates.

This is the reason great mid-bass is more important than deep bass for a lot of applications and music styles.
I get that. It was late and I was late for bed and much of which kind of goes without saying, really. I've just heard him rattle the windows just tuning his Fender and he did say standard tuning, which he uses most with the band he plays with which covers mostly classic stuff.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
All things considered, I would rather have the sub be able to play higher frequencies than 80 Hz than not. Some times they can do a lot better at 100 or 125 Hz than the bookshelf speakers I sometimes use. Yes, often the main speakers can dig down to 50 Hz, maybe 40, but they don't do that nearly as well as subs. Also, the subs can sometimes have a smoother response above 80 Hz than the main speakers.

By the way, very few subwoofer drivers will be able to play up to 1 kHz well. I don't know of any that could. The things needed to do to a driver to get it to play low frequencies well will adversely affect high frequency playback. There will always be trade-offs in design.
I understand. I was more curious that if the freq response is higher, will it play 80, or even 100hz better than one that limits out much lower? Other things I notice is the difference with the size of the actual voice coils, excursion measurements and even with the style and constructs of the surrounds, motor types and other 'mechanical' considerations with the type of actual bass output.

Music tends to peak and sustain way differently than movies.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The argument here is strange, that a speaker has to be truly full range, with extension down to 20 Hz, to be high fidelity? I don't agree, since we have subwoofers, and these speakers are intended to be played with subs.
Why do you mention subwoofers AND subs, when they're the same thing.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I get that. It was late and I was late for bed and much of which kind of goes without saying, really. I've just heard him rattle the windows just tuning his Fender and he did say standard tuning, which he uses most with the band he plays with which covers mostly classic stuff.
I don't know how much you know about these instruments, but....

If he plays a Precision, that could explain this. The Precision is known for 'the Fender thump', which can be heard as being more percussive than most bass guitars because of the placement of its one pickup location. It uses one pickup for each pair of strings, fairly close to the end of the fretboard and on a 22 fret neck, this puts it close to where the 24th fret would be, which is two octaves above the open string. It not only moves more air, it also makes things move more than a bass with two pickups.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I don't know how much you know about these instruments, but....

If he plays a Precision, that could explain this. The Precision is known for 'the Fender thump', which can be heard as being more percussive than most bass guitars because of the placement of its one pickup location. It uses one pickup for each pair of strings, fairly close to the end of the fretboard and on a 22 fret neck, this puts it close to where the 24th fret would be, which is two octaves above the open string. It not only moves more air, it also makes things move more than a bass with two pickups.
I don't know a lot about these instruments. He may have even explained, and it went over my head beyond that of a need to know basis. He actually has multiple bass guitars, a couple that he built, IIRC. He also mentioned something about much of the bass and percussion in modern music being synthetic and not always to the best interest of the music, or instead, taking one of the musicians out of the mix or a trivial convenience perhaps.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I understand that, but if he seals the cabinets, he might get some output below tuning, as opposed to none in ported modes, but probably not enough to worry about.
In a ported mode, you will still get some output below tuning, but you have to be careful with the power driven into the woofer, because the cone becomes unloaded below the box tuned frequency and it's displacement can exceed its xmax with consequent damage.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It wasn't that I was unhappy with my sound, I was more perplexed as to the lack of discussion or, hands-on approaches with DSP and bass management for starters. ShadyJ caught it and offered some suggestions. I took his suggestions as a starting point. I wanted to play with the DSP of the sub's external amp with regard to sub woofer sound quality, or duty.

At the same time I was reading other discussions. It was very difficult to find anything that does not include HT. Even when you get someone who claims something like; "90% music," they're building in tuning that is trying for below 20hz as a goal. Just looking at the numbers, from a subwoofer newbie perspective, with the actual sub frequency range essentially being from say, 20-65hz, why does a sub woofer driver have a freq response up to 1000hz? Hence the initial question. Some subwoofer drivers freq response is much narrower say, 20-400hz. When we are crossing over systems on average of 60-100hz, these freq response numbers start to sound rather. . . .superfluous. Many subwoofer drivers are very powerful, well built drivers. Just seemed odd that so little is asked of it. Look at the size and complexity at some of the enclosures they are putting them in.

From my subwoofer newbie perspective, whenever you start using things to do multiple (movies and music) tasks, or more emphasis in a certain direction, there are trade offs elsewhere. This is with just about everything known to man and nature. To me, it looks as if the current trend is more towards a novelty of trying to brag about how low one can get a subwoofer to go and that is where the conversation seemingly ends. Very little about the fine tuning and actual sound quality above 30hz. Often times, when you look at the rest of the equipment they have listed in their signature line, you may notice that their main, bookshelf sized speakers, roll off at 60hz or above. How good is this often times, 'single' subwoofer that reaches below 20hz, or multiples located about the room or behind furniture at times, doing in the 30-80hz range? Do they just do well by default? Are they really picking up the detail of something like the roll off exchange from a fretless bass from the mains to the sub?

This thread was a starting point. It's hard to find detailed conversations about the fine tuning or people actually trying anything different, and even harder to find people who dare try to use their own ears. On the other hand, while trusting the numbers and current methodology, tons and tons of troubleshooting and dismissed equipment.

There wasn't a lot going on here on the forum. I wanted to have a discussion about subwoofers and DSP. I was curious of the full range capabilities of my subwoofer or subwoofers in general. I listen to what people here tell me. I even try what they suggest. I was hoping that perhaps maybe others with an external DSP amp for their sub might try exploring the settings and report back, just for the heck of it.
If your question about frequency response for a sub going to 1KHz, are you referring to the Eminence Delta or the Ultimax? If so, you aren't considering the fact that it was never designed for home use and it's definitely not designed to be used as a subwoofer. Does it produce notes that fall in the range of a sub? Under the right circumstances, definitely. Will it happen in a small enclosure? Absolutely not, unless it uses a long, large diameter vent and the signal going to it is limited. This driver is geared toward guitar and bass players who need mid-range, as well. Stick this in a sealed 4-12 cabinet and it works great for a Marshall head OR a bass because A) a Marshall head doesn't produce a lot of bass and B) four drivers in that arrangement act like a larger diaphragm.

This is about the Delta Pro12a right? If so, look at the attachment and you'll see that they handle a fair amount of power, but not if the tuning and box aren't right.

https://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_Pro_12A_cab.pdf

Some people are obsessed with hitting the lowest frequencies- I think they may come from car audio, but that's not the same listening or acoustical environment, by any stretch of the imagination. Most music and sound tracks don't use anything below 20Hz but it's a good number to use as a lower goal because that's one of the the theoretical limits of human hearing.

Something you might like to know- bass players blow speakers more often because they don't understand what is being sent to them than because of high power. In fact, some bass amplifiers have a built-in HP filter at about 35Hz specifically because it's possible to produce frequencies in the sub-20Hz range, even if the instrument's tuning isn't that low. If you have heard of 'beat frequency', this is the reason- play two notes that are close together and you can produce not only the intended notes, you can also produce the sum and difference frequencies which, if the original notes are G (on the E string) and A (open A string), the difference is 6Hz and a lot of people use the beat frequency to tune their instruments. A member of a bass player's forum is also an Electrical Engineer and he offers a product that connects between the instrument and the effects and amp- it filters sub-35Hz frequencies at a steep slope in order to allow himself (originally) to play at high SPL without puking his speakers and when others heard the difference (actually, there's no difference, other than the amplifier and speakers being happier) and saw that the cone's excursion was greatly reduced, he started to receive orders. Many people who design speaker enclosures ignore the fact that below the port tuning frequency, the woofer isn't controlled well, if at all.
 
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M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
So with all this said, does anyone here actually explore the entire capability of their subwoofer drivers capabilities? Does anyone ever try to see what audio skills they have beyond that of knowing their way around the auto functions of their AVRs? When people come in and ask for solutions to a problem with bass management, and the common cure tends to revolve around recalibration with yet another piece of equipment, or what essentially can amount to doing the same thing over and over that did not cure the problem in the first place, is that always the final answer?

I fixed my buddy's ''too bright'' speakers. He had condemned horn speakers entirely and basically dismissed a $1000.00 pair of tower speakers to the overflow of his garage. According to a rather broad consensus of the internet, horn speakers are bright, or even harsh. It had never occurred to him, or his AVR, the 'experts' at Best Buy, to instead, EQ the source. Why? Because it's too simple and is often not included with much of the source equipment with any real fine detail and is rarely ever really discussed.

Does this happen with subwoofers too? Is this why we may also need 10's of thousands of dollars for room treatments?
 

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