Why limit a subwoofer

M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I just read that Pure, or Direct mode deactivates bass management in the AVR, which should be a good thing if I want to use the DSP of the Inuke for the sub, so they don't conflict with each other, I would think.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I may be wrong in my assumptions but, seems weird trying to run 2 channel music through an AVR, with all it's included enhancements designed for what amounts to totally different demands with regard to audio for surround sound movies, vs. audio of music. Just considering the difference in averages and peaks between the two, tells me that it should be better to let more of the system resources go to the amps instead of all the other functions simultaneously.

Perhaps this is why I am having a better experience in Direct mode, more than just being a preference? I may have even read something to this effect earlier on in this venture when I researched the settings. I will revisit the subject to be sure.

Could this be why that those who swear by integrated amps vs. AVR for music listening notice a difference enough to swear by it? Is it possible also that they have not tried a more powerful AVR in Direct mode for fair comparisons?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I just read that Pure, or Direct mode deactivates bass management in the AVR, which should be a good thing if I want to use the DSP of the Inuke for the sub, so they don't conflict with each other, I would think.
Bass management is the avr using a crossover between the sub and speakers...so now I'm back to thinking that LFE+Main is enabled when you're in direct (vs LFE mode....what does it say?)....I looked at another post to see which avr, the Denon 3802, right? Reading the manual is a bit confusing especially some of the subwoofer mode notes on page 12. Maybe its just late, I'll look again in the morning.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
In every AVR I have ever used, pure direct mode sent the full range signal to the speakers, with no processing and no bass management from the sub. The AVR is only acting as a simple amplifier in this mode.

If you want the subwoofer involved in playback at all, do not use pure direct mode.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
In every AVR I have ever used, pure direct mode sent the full range signal to the speakers, with no processing and no bass management from the sub. The AVR is only acting as a simple amplifier in this mode.

If you want the subwoofer involved in playback at all, do not use pure direct mode.
The sub still plays in either CD Direct, or Pure Direct modes. The amp I have driving the sub is the Behringer NU3000dsp. If I use the Bass Management of the AVR, the crossover settings range from 40-250hz in 20hz increments and that is pretty much what the "Bass Management" consists of that I can tell other than level settings perhaps.

If I use the DSP of the Behringer, the crossover settings are incremental in tenths of a hertz. The Behringer has access to a lot more filters, although, being new at this, other than what effects I have noticed by moving the settings, I am not entirely sure which ones apply to sub bass frequencies. High Pass, Low Pass, High Shelf, Low Shelf, Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley, PEQ. . . .

This amp is also used for other things besides subwoofers, hence the curiosity with the specifics that I cannot find much discussion on, or information in the manual.

Even without specifics in the manual, or a complete education of crossovers/filters, a basic discussion or information in a manual that says something like; "For sub-bass frequencies, or stand-alone subwoofer use, you need not be concerned with certain functions." Or something even vaguely to that effect.

I realize that this is 'pro' equipment. As such, most professionals should likely know all these things. That's probably the penalty for someone like me trying to work outside of my pay grade. :)
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Your AVR should be taking care of the crossover slope, not the amplifier's DSP. Unless you are taking care of the crossover outside of the AVR, which is the only reason why the sub should be playing in pure direct mode. If so, you can probably just use the typical THX crossover on the sub with some good results, a 24 dB / octave slope LPF on the subs and a 12 dB / octave HPF on the mains.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Bass management is the avr using a crossover between the sub and speakers...so now I'm back to thinking that LFE+Main is enabled when you're in direct (vs LFE mode....what does it say?)....I looked at another post to see which avr, the Denon 3802, right? Reading the manual is a bit confusing especially some of the subwoofer mode notes on page 12. Maybe its just late, I'll look again in the morning.
Denon 3805. The Bass Management section contains either LFE+Main, or LFE. In pure direct mode, you cannot access it because all the systems display functions are disabled. You can still access it in CD Direct and even change the settings, although, I do not know if this is having any effect in CD Direct mode, or that I can tell. I think LFE is really only for movies that are 5.1 and beyond surround though, right? Not so for 2 channel music?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Denon 3805. The Bass Management section contains either LFE+Main, or LFE. In pure direct mode, you cannot access it because all the systems display functions are disabled. You can still access it in CD Direct and even change the settings, although, I do not know if this is having any effect in CD Direct mode, or that I can tell. I think LFE is really only for movies that are 5.1 and beyond surround though, right? Not so for 2 channel music?
Okay, I'll look at that manual instead. I'm still getting accustomed to the manual and setup layout of the used 3808 I picked up (a lot different from my 4520).

What Denon means by the LFE vs LFE+Main settings is that in LFE mode you're allowing the avr to set up bass management via using a crossover between speaker/sub when speakers are set to small; if all speakers are set to large then the LFE channel only carries recorded content in sources with a .1/LFE channell; LFE+Main allows use of the sub even when speakers are set to large (and will thus overlap or duplicate frequency ranges between the speakers and sub).

Here's Batpig's explanation from his Denon-to-English manual help pages while I go check out "CD Direct":

Q. Can you explain more about DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes, and how they differ from STEREO mode?

A. The major difference is that, when in DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes, the receiver bypasses most (or all) of the additional processing circuitry such as Tone Controls (bass/treble) and Bass Management. Theoretically, bypassing or shutting off any unneeded circuitry should deliver slightly "purer" audio quality; in practice, you may or may not hear a difference.

If you look in Denon's manuals, they quote their S/N ratio specs in DIRECT mode, which implies that DIRECT will have a slightly lower noise floor than regular STEREO mode.

The key functional difference for most setups is that, when in DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode, the speakers are treated as large regardless of how you set things up in the 2CH DIRECT/STEREO menu.

The only difference between DIRECT and PURE DIRECT mode is that PURE DIRECT shuts off all the video circuitry, including the display on the receiver itself. Note that if you use PURE DIRECT with an HDMI source, the video will still remain on as the receiver needs to keep the HDMI circuitry active to process the audio. In other respects they are the same; PURE DIRECT and DIRECT share all settings, including surround parameters, subwoofer mode, channel levels, etc.

To set up audio for 2-channel listening, you need to use the 2CH DIRECT/STEREO menu found under MANUAL SETUP > AUDIO SETUP. However, because of the quirks of DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes, the settings are not always obvious in how they function. In typical Denon fashion, the settings do NOT apply equally to STEREO and DIRECT modes! Here is a summary of the behavior of this special sub menu:

When in STEREO mode:

- All settings -- e.g. small vs. large, crossover freq., etc. behave normally

- Remember that there is NO LFE signal in a stereo source, so if you want the sub to play while in STEREO mode you either need to set your speakers to SMALL with an appropriate crossover, or set sub to LFE+MAIN to activate "double bass".

When in DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode:

- "Small" vs. "Large" is ignored (the front speakers are always treated as "large")

- The subwoofer will be active only if the LFE+MAIN setting is on, and it will be "double bass" because the front speakers will be treated as "large". ** note that you can still have the sub set to LFE in the "normal" subwoofer setup menu, this is just referring to the "2CH DIRECT/STEREO" settings

- The "crossover" frequency effectively functions as an LPF (low pass filter) for the subwoofer's "double bass", but does NOT affect the fronts (again, because of the first bullet point). The "crossover" thus effectively becomes an upper limit or "cap" for the double bass effect. So a good strategy is to set the "crossover" to where your front speakers naturally roll off, to try and get a smooth "blend" despite the double bass.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Lovinthehd you are absolutely correct on that report. I think that is the set up for all AVRs and pre/pros.

In my integrated system, when in direct or pure direct my external bass management takes over. The sound is indistinguishable and measures the same. The reason I have duplicated the bass management is to handle sources like SACD connected to the multi channel inputs that would otherwise have bass management.

Once calibrated I never alter bass management or any speaker levels. LFE is captured when resent and sent to the four 10" bass drivers.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Looking at the 3805 manual (still somewhat confusing as to their layout and possibly translation to an extent....batpig's stuff can be helpful) it seems you do have some specific sub setup options for general speaker setup, as well as specific direct mode setup (can even turn on room eq settings for direct mode). See manual pages 30-37 for some details as to direct and sub use. I don't see a particular "CD Direct" mode, assume this means input selected is CD and the mode selected is Direct and that you've enabled the use of the sub via Main+LFE.

More interesting would be what your particular setup is as far as these various settings in the avr go....
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Your AVR should be taking care of the crossover slope, not the amplifier's DSP. Unless you are taking care of the crossover outside of the AVR, which is the only reason why the sub should be playing in pure direct mode.
Yes, this is what I was hoping to achieve. To use a more hands on, fine tune approach with the subwoofer. Also, to learn the effect of the different filters in the external amp.

If so, you can probably just use the typical THX crossover on the sub with some good results, a 24 dB / octave slope LPF on the subs and a 12 dB / octave HPF on the mains.
So far, the highest setting I used was LP 12 with the subwoofer. Taking into account the obvious gains of my listening environment, and with what I feel is normal bass for the music I listen to. Even in a sealed enclosure, with only a 12" subwoofer, it can at times, rattle the fillings in my teeth if I let it. That's not the effect I am after.

I have not gotten to the level settings in the AVR yet, either. It occurs to me that since I bought it used, it could still have the previous owners settings in it. I don't have it hooked up to a TV and have had to do this at the front panel so I am a bit slow getting into all that. This is a lot to take in coming from the old world of audio.

I appreciate your participation in tis thread. This all helps.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Okay, I'll look at that manual instead. I'm still getting accustomed to the manual and setup layout of the used 3808 I picked up (a lot different from my 4520).

What Denon means by the LFE vs LFE+Main settings is that in LFE mode you're allowing the avr to set up bass management via using a crossover between speaker/sub when speakers are set to small; if all speakers are set to large then the LFE channel only carries recorded content in sources with a .1/LFE channell; LFE+Main allows use of the sub even when speakers are set to large (and will thus overlap or duplicate frequency ranges between the speakers and sub).

Here's Batpig's explanation from his Denon-to-English manual help pages while I go check out "CD Direct":

Q. Can you explain more about DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes, and how they differ from STEREO mode?

A. The major difference is that, when in DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes, the receiver bypasses most (or all) of the additional processing circuitry such as Tone Controls (bass/treble) and Bass Management. Theoretically, bypassing or shutting off any unneeded circuitry should deliver slightly "purer" audio quality; in practice, you may or may not hear a difference.

If you look in Denon's manuals, they quote their S/N ratio specs in DIRECT mode, which implies that DIRECT will have a slightly lower noise floor than regular STEREO mode.

The key functional difference for most setups is that, when in DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode, the speakers are treated as large regardless of how you set things up in the 2CH DIRECT/STEREO menu.

The only difference between DIRECT and PURE DIRECT mode is that PURE DIRECT shuts off all the video circuitry, including the display on the receiver itself. Note that if you use PURE DIRECT with an HDMI source, the video will still remain on as the receiver needs to keep the HDMI circuitry active to process the audio. In other respects they are the same; PURE DIRECT and DIRECT share all settings, including surround parameters, subwoofer mode, channel levels, etc.

To set up audio for 2-channel listening, you need to use the 2CH DIRECT/STEREO menu found under MANUAL SETUP > AUDIO SETUP. However, because of the quirks of DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes, the settings are not always obvious in how they function. In typical Denon fashion, the settings do NOT apply equally to STEREO and DIRECT modes! Here is a summary of the behavior of this special sub menu:

When in STEREO mode:

- All settings -- e.g. small vs. large, crossover freq., etc. behave normally

- Remember that there is NO LFE signal in a stereo source, so if you want the sub to play while in STEREO mode you either need to set your speakers to SMALL with an appropriate crossover, or set sub to LFE+MAIN to activate "double bass".

When in DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode:

- "Small" vs. "Large" is ignored (the front speakers are always treated as "large")

- The subwoofer will be active only if the LFE+MAIN setting is on, and it will be "double bass" because the front speakers will be treated as "large". ** note that you can still have the sub set to LFE in the "normal" subwoofer setup menu, this is just referring to the "2CH DIRECT/STEREO" settings

- The "crossover" frequency effectively functions as an LPF (low pass filter) for the subwoofer's "double bass", but does NOT affect the fronts (again, because of the first bullet point). The "crossover" thus effectively becomes an upper limit or "cap" for the double bass effect. So a good strategy is to set the "crossover" to where your front speakers naturally roll off, to try and get a smooth "blend" despite the double bass.
Thank you for this. I have read a lot to this effect, just not in a condensed format such as that you have posted. Thank you for taking interest. this is excellent information and now I know where it is so I don't have to go skating to a bunch of different threads on different forums for bits and pieces.

Much appreciated. Now, I am glad I asked.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Looking at the 3805 manual (still somewhat confusing as to their layout and possibly translation to an extent....batpig's stuff can be helpful) it seems you do have some specific sub setup options for general speaker setup, as well as specific direct mode setup (can even turn on room eq settings for direct mode). See manual pages 30-37 for some details as to direct and sub use. I don't see a particular "CD Direct" mode, assume this means input selected is CD and the mode selected is Direct and that you've enabled the use of the sub via Main+LFE.

More interesting would be what your particular setup is as far as these various settings in the avr go....
Ahh, before reading this post, it occurred to me that being I came across this AVR used, it could still have settings for an entirely different use and most likely does. That may even be why direct sounds better to my ears, for having other erroneous settings throughout the AVR vs my speakers, which are entirely different than the previous owner's. And he was into movies.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, this is what I was hoping to achieve. To use a more hands on, fine tune approach with the subwoofer. Also, to learn the effect of the different filters in the external amp.



So far, the highest setting I used was LP 12 with the subwoofer. Taking into account the obvious gains of my listening environment, and with what I feel is normal bass for the music I listen to. Even in a sealed enclosure, with only a 12" subwoofer, it can at times, rattle the fillings in my teeth if I let it. That's not the effect I am after.

I have not gotten to the level settings in the AVR yet, either. It occurs to me that since I bought it used, it could still have the previous owners settings in it. I don't have it hooked up to a TV and have had to do this at the front panel so I am a bit slow getting into all that. This is a lot to take in coming from the old world of audio.

I appreciate your participation in tis thread. This all helps.

I think you need measurement mic/REW to really use the dsp you have available to you though; you can use the external amp's dsp in addition to using the avr for crossover in any case.

A tv definitely is easier than the panel for the adustments. You could do a microprocessor reset to set it to all the default settings, but I'd go into those settings and see where they are first as a guideline to what you have been experiencing now. It is a lot different from pure analog 2ch stuff :)
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I think you need measurement mic/REW to really use the dsp you have available to you though; you can use the external amp's dsp in addition to using the avr for crossover in any case.

A tv definitely is easier than the panel for the adustments. You could do a microprocessor reset to set it to all the default settings, but I'd go into those settings and see where they are first as a guideline to what you have been experiencing now. It is a lot different from pure analog 2ch stuff :)
That will be the next thing I buy, most likely. A mic. I am curious as to what that will actually do. Especially now being I have two of these same AVRs.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
This has been a reverse approach to this whole thing, having just come down from a bunch of DIY stuff right out of my audio gate, so to speak. It's just now coming together really. This is all part of that; "Now what?" crossroad with putting it all together.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
The mains woofer is actually very good. Too good perhaps to be limited at 80hz. A lot of this likely has to do with the music I am generally listening to these days, which is not so busy in the mid range as say, rock and heavy vocal music.

I have been listening to it for a couple days now. CD Direct has made the biggest difference. Apparently, my ears don't care 'as much' for the coloration the AVR adds with it's built in tone controls.

Volume level is yet another. With the larger woofers of the mains, it sounds best turned up a little.

Part of this is because I do not understand the amp driving the sub yet. What each function of the DSP does. I am just getting into that. Hard to find any broad discussion on that without getting into movies. Just when I think I am onto something, I see "War of the Worlds" mentioned and I am back to square one. Just got into Parametric and Dynamic EQ and playing with the adjustments. I may be finally onto something here

It would be nice to be able to read something broken down more in laymen terms with regard to bass settings (like here, music heads, try this) other than how much technical mumbo jumbo one can possibly squeeze into a sentence, with the other extreme to that end basically translating to; "Bass dude Bass."
Well, you seem intent on learning the hard way. That isn't such a bad thing ... the lessons are usually well learned that way.

I am sure the "mains woofer" (see, you are already teaching yourself new things, starting with your own unique language) is very good. Most are these days. I am a little perplexed by your statement that the music you listen to "is not so busy in the mid range". What, is it nothing but cymbals and bells, maybe a triangle strike every now and then?

The midrange (about 250 Hz~2 KHz) is exactly where you want this "very good" woofer to operate within. Why bother if you somehow have found a kind of music that doesn't operate in that range?

You should maybe search out the fundamental note frequencies of various instruments. There are very few instruments with fundamental notes above 2 KHz (piccolo, pipe organ, harp, 88-key piano) and most don't go above 1200 Hz when playing the very highest note on the scale (guitar, saxophone, violin, trumpet, female vocal) and many are much lower (cymbals, 800 Hz; Snare Drum 300 Hz, Male Vocal 800 Hz).

What notes did you think compromised the "midrange"?

I don't know what speakers you have, but maybe pop the woofer, get access to the internals, and disconnect the other drivers. Listen through your woofer only. Then think about how good it is at mid frequencies.
 
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M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Well, you seem intent on learning the hard way. That isn't such a bad thing ... the lessons are usually well learned that way.

I am sure the "mains woofer" (see, you are already teaching yourself new things, starting with your own unique language) is very good. Most are these days. I am a little perplexed by your statement that the music you listen to "is not so busy in the mid range". What, is it nothing but cymbals and bells, maybe a triangle strike every now and then?

The midrange (about 250 Hz~2 KHz) is exactly where you want this "very good" woofer to operate within. Why bother if you somehow have found a kind of music that doesn't operate in that range?

You should maybe search out the fundamental note frequencies of various instruments. There are very few instruments with fundamental notes above 2 KHz (piccolo, pipe organ, harp, 88-key piano) and most don't go above 1200 Hz when playing the very highest note on the scale (guitar, saxophone, violin, trumpet, female vocal) and many are much lower (cymbals, 800 Hz; Snare Drum 300 Hz, Male Vocal 800 Hz).

What notes did you think compromised the "midrange"?

I don't know what speakers you have, but maybe pop the woofer, get access to the internals, and disconnect the other drivers. Listen through your woofer only. Then think about how good it is at mid frequencies.
Yes. the main speakers (the mains woofers) woofers. Which are the Eminence Delta Pro-12A. The main speakers woofer as compared to the subwoofer. I built my speakers. I've been listening to music from an analytical perspective for over 40 years. Grew up with musicians and bands, and sat in on a lot of performances from garages, warehouses to more professional environments.

Not so busy midrange, say, multiple (with distortion added) guitars, keyboards, synthesizers etc in hard rock, compared to something like smooth Jazz. Some music has a lot more going on in the mid range all at once, and then add vocals, compared to music that has no vocals etc. I was hoping this was obvious enough. I have friends who have a 3 piece band. There isn't a whole lot heaped on top of each other in the mid range. Sometimes the guitar player finger picks, sometimes he strums. Sometimes the drummer just plays a snare drum. It's very easy to pick apart, comparatively. I have another friend who plays a Fender bass guitar. He told me it will go right around 41hz. I've heard him play. If that's 41hz, then OMG, wtf am I doing trying for the low 30's for the music I listen to?

Finally, I'm not intent to find out the hard way. Just curious beyond what has turned into the "only" way. I managed to get some pretty good responses to my question, regardless.

My speakers, by today's standards, are too big (thankfully) for my room and my subwoofer is too small, yet it sounds beautiful. I dared to play the speakers full range for approximately 600 hrs and analyze by ear, exactly how much ambient presence, or bass was missing, just like we used to do before separate subwoofers and computers became a thing. I lucked out somehow.

Some people add mid bass modules to their systems to fill in between the lacking mid bass of their too small main speakers and their subs. I just noticed that the freq responses of subwoofers varied a lot from one brand or type to the next. Thought it might be nice if a speaker that takes such a big amount of space in a system would do more than just sub bass.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
I see, well, yes if you're running Eminence drivers yes, they do have, and are designed to have, output into the midrange. But, they are not true HiFi speakers; they are Sound Reinforcement / Guitar Amp speakers (depending on model; I didn't look yours up) and often don't have particularly good extreme low bass response. In a live music situation, output below 100 Hz is a problem to be corrected, not a feature to be exploited, so most music speakers are designed to limit extreme Low Frequency output.

I don't mean to imply they are not good quality; quite the opposite. But they were designed to *create* sound, not *reproduce* sound, and there is a difference.

A Bass Guitar with standard tuning will have a Low E at about 41 Hz, but many players do not use standard tuning, and if you were to ask what frequency you would need to meet to be able to play back every bass guitar on the available music today, you would want to be flat into roughly 30 Hz. If you don't need the ability to play low synthesizer notes, or don't like Bach and won't be listening to Pipe Organ recordings, you could stop there. If you do want to play one or both of the above "exception" instruments, then you might even want to place your Low Frequency rolloff to begin as low as perhaps 16 Hz.

So, there is some method to the Subwoofer madness.

There is a corollary, though, and that is humans don't necessarily need to hear the fundamental with low bass notes; we can accept a resonant peak somewhere in the 2nd harmonic (2H) and sometimes 3rd harmonic (3H) range and enjoy the result. Say, the system reproduces mostly 82 Hz for your low E 41 Hz fundamental. That's how low-fi speakers, and more than a few HiFi speakers, still manage to produce a listenable result. A lot of smaller driver speakers ... you know, the ones with 4", 6" and 8" drivers we are suggesting would be best for mid-bass and above ... do exactly that, covering their inability to play true low bass notes.

I haven't suggested a subwoofer is necessary in a system, and certainly using 12" drivers in a full range system is one way to ameriorlate that situation. That might be assigned the task of the very lowest notes, or it might be asked to cover a wider range, but it's usually a matter of pick one, not both.

But just so you know, subs are not new to me, and I built my first subwoofer system in the 1970's. I've used 15", 18" and even the legendary Hartley 24" driver in some builds. Without seeing your speakers I am none the less confident that I've built ones that were bigger. We even built one where the entire basement was the inside of the enclosure, the subs firing into the floor of the room above.

That was a time when we did use large woofers in not just 3-way but also in 2-way systems, but it also was a time when good, synthetic cone 6 and 8" drivers from companies like Son-Audax and KEF were just entering the market.

What happened to me is what I'm suggesting you should consider ... that a great midrange, where perhaps 80% of the musical information lies, frees up the space for a great woofer. It was evident then, and has evolved since from black magic and a certain "art" in a speaker designer's skill set, to science. It is really not difficult to design a good DIY full range system today, although it does take effort, it's certainly within the realm of most relatively handy people's abilities if they apply themselves.

The point being, however that both drivers perform better than either would alone. Just some food for thought. And the jury was out, came back, and gave it's verdict a long time ago. It's really not even brought up anymore in serious loudspeaker design circles.

With regard to the size of subwoofers, they are today much, much more compact than what was achievable in the past for the same low frequency response. So, although relatively large, they are not large in the grand scheme of things. And if you get above perhaps 120 Hz, maybe even a little lower, you can do that in a box the size of a shoebox or smaller.

Nor do low frequency notes need to originate in front of you (or wherever the setup requires, such as a 5.x or 7.x, etc system) as your front stereo pair do. They are not directional, up to a point.

So, another reason why they are often recommended ... you can put them almost anywhere in the room, with certain limitations that are important but can be overcome with relatively small changes in location, up to about 80 Hz.

Anything above that frequency, and humans with both ears in functional condition will start to locate the source of the sound (direction). So your sub can't be off to one side AND have response above about 80 Hz (the exact number will vary depending on the crossover characteristics).

The smaller and less obtrusive the stereo main pair are, the easier they are to place. Placement is a critical criteria in system Sound Quality (SQ).

That makes a subwoofer with "satellites" a viable option for the modern home. Now, some people ... I suspect you are one ... don't have an issue with large loudspeakers in the room. Not everyone is lucky enough to be in that position. But it's just one more reason for the popularity of a 2.1 or larger system configuration.

Please note I am not referring to what are marketed as subwoofers; I am referring to actual subwoofers. There are a lot of products in the marketplace that are incapable of actual sub-bass reproduction (20~40 Hz) along with low bass that wear the name.

Advertising is a shady game. Somehow we aren't supposed to say "lies" out loud, when we are fed lies by copywriters. But that's the reality of the world we live in; the companies that are selling you products are not actually interested in your best interests, they are interested in converting your cash to their cash. Some do it more ethically than others, but fundamentally they are all engaged in the same game.

I have always said here, and elsewhere, that it's not my system, it's yours. That does not mean I won't give my honest advice, and the benefit of my experience, when asked and I feel willing to reply. I do ignore many, many posters here not because I'm trying to be rude, but because I am not interested in giving half an answer when I could give a full one. Doing so requires my attention, which is limited, as I do have a life. So every once in a while I'll engage in discussion with someone, such as yourself.

It does mean, however, that the ultimate judge of what is right for you is you. If you are happy, then you have achieved your objective. I just don't understand why you would ask a question you have no intention of considering answers to. You seem more interested in defending your ideas and the existing system you have rather than seeking answers regarding how to improve what you have. Maybe I am reading your responses wrong, but it seems to be that way.

"Main" (as in "primary") is used to refer to audio equipment; "Mains" ( plural form) refers to the AC wiring that runs through your home.

Everything has to be taken in context. There are people willing to trade extreme Low Frequency reproduction ability for some other aspect ... perhaps they want a killer midrange, use a full-frequency single crossover-less driver to achieve that, and are happy with the result.

Others ... especially those who want to combine a music and movie playback system into one ... want the widest frequency response from the bottom to the top with visceral power and are willing to give up that last tenth of detail that having crossovers in the system will tend to kill.

Neither is more "right" than the other, they are just different, and there are a dozen other system goals that compete with one another; give a little here, take a little there. Knowing what you want from the audio gear is the most important first step in building a system.

Many people have no idea what they want, so if offered advice is going to be any help at all, you have to start with helping them find that answer, because no system you build without that answer will be satisfactory (unless you just don't care).

I am not convinced you have answered that question yet, or if you have, you've kept it from us, which is a mistake.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
I don't mean to imply they are not good quality; quite the opposite. But they were designed to *create* sound, not *reproduce* sound, and there is a difference.
Yes, but I think you have this backwards.

A small, fragile audiophile driver, one intended for use in small domestic speakers, is certainly not appropriate for music production, but that doesn't mean a robust, linear, high sensitivity driver is inappropriate for reproduction. If anything, the driver intended for production has serious advantages (pretty much everything but WAF).
 
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