Upgrading Subwoofers

[shadyJ]

Very nice speakers, very nice subs. Placement, toe-in, stand-off distances, everything looks good.

You going to get a matching center for the SVS speakers?

By the way, symmetrical subs with respect to the listening position is bound to exacerbate problems at the listening position. Asymmetrical placement is more likely to yield a smoother response.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks Shady. It's nice to have some confirmation that I've set things up properly.

Yes, a matching center is on the list. It's a little pricey though and my wife is still reeling from the shock of the sub purchase(s), though they're officially paid for now. A Umik mic, miniDSP HD and wireless transmitter/receiver for one of my subs is next on my list. I can live with the current center for now, I don't watch as much tv as I used to. Music has always been first for me anyway.

 

[Bucknekked]

You know what I'm discovering? And it makes sense to me too. I'm enjoying my music at lower volumes now. These VTF-3's barely need to move to produce deep bass and they're big enough for me to still feel it. Don't get me wrong, when I'm home alone or a favorite song comes up I'm turning it up, but for some background noise at low volumes it sounds better than with smaller subs. It's still enjoyable.

Pogre
Interesting observation on your listening levels. I have been noticing the same trend in my own listening habits since I established my own music room and set up a dedicated system just for music (and the occasional movie). Since doing that, I know that I consistently listen at lower levels than I used to. I also enjoy my listening more and am constantly listening for, and finding, rich content in my tunes.

I don't know the why of it, I am just noticing the phenomenon myself. Great minds think alike I guess.

 

[Pogre]

For me I think it's a matter of having things set up as optimally as I can and getting those monster subs. I was turning it up more often to compensate for the smaller subs and/or placement issues. I like to feel a little bass even at lower volumes. I get that now without having to turn it up as much.

I'm also even beginning to see that 18" subs wouldn't be "too big" for my room. I'm genuinely very happy with what I have though. If I do anything more with subs it would be to add 2 more behind me. That won't be in the budget for a long time though...

 

[Bucknekked]

For me I think it's a matter of having things set up as optimally as I can and getting those monster subs. I was turning it up more often to compensate for the smaller subs and/or placement issues. I like to feel a little bass even at lower volumes. I get that now without having to turn it up as much.

I'm also even beginning to see that 18" subs wouldn't be "too big" for my room. I'm genuinely very happy with what I have though. If I do anything more with subs it would be to add 2 more behind me. That won't be in the budget for a long time though...

Pogre
Apparently, you can't have too much horsepower, caliber, or subwoofer. I might add (after this last weeks series of posts) wattage in your amplifier or proof in your schnapps.

 

[Pogre]

Well I bought a Rocketfish wireless transmitter (open box, $40) and got some really weird results. I couldn't seem to get the 2 level matched without turning 1 way up and the other way down.

I wrestled with those subs for 5 hours trying to find the best spots. Turns out, right up front is the best spot for both, though there appears to be a 12db null on the right one between about 60-40 hz. From 40 to 35 hz it jumps back up 12 db. I need to get proper measuring equipment to be sure though. I used an spl app on my tablet and played 100 to 5 hz test tones in 5 db increments. There was a 10 or 12 db dip in the above frequencies on the right side. With both together the discrepancy isn't nearly as big. Like I said, I need the proper tools for this job. I'm just posting some observations from my crude experimenting.

One thing about the transmitter. I have no clue how or why, but when I unplugged the transmitter from my avr the other sub suddenly got a lot louder. I think there was something seriously wrong with it so I took it back. They're level matched now (except for the 12db dip starting at 60hz through 40hz on the right).

 

[Pogre]

I think I'm grasping all the different settings and port modes now. I run both ports open and eq 2 for movies and 1 port open, eq 1 for music. Some of the music I listen to has bass notes down into the 20 Hz range.

If I read everything correctly, it looks like eq 2 rolls off gradually starting at 30 Hz for more headroom and output while eq 1 let's it play much lower for more extension? Eq 1 should only be used for sealed or 1 port open. The port modes seem pretty simple. The more ports plugged, the tighter the bass and lower output? Er, wait... more extension sealed? I guess I'm a little confused.

The Q setting I'm not sure about. That's one area I hardly know anything about. I think I've sleuthed it out to understand that a higher Q = a flatter response at lower octaves and a lower Q will offer more output in the midrange. I have the Q set at 0.7 right now.

I 'think' it sounds pretty good, but it's so hard to tell with getting up, switching settings then sitting back down to listen. Some of the changes are obvious and others are more subtle. What I'd like is for you guys to see if I've interpeted everything correctly or if there's a setting I'm using that doesn't make sense. It's a little for me to absorb and I wouldn't be surprised if I misinterpreted something.

I know I need a mic and a mini, but the subs do offer a lot of different tuning options.

 

[shadyJ]

The EQ and plugged port settings do not vary the rate of rolloff of the subs, or the slope of the rolloff, they only change the frequency at which it occurs. But yes, having two ports open does allow for more headroom, at least above its tuning point. You can see this effect in this graph of a comparison between the VTF-2 output modes, the effect will also be true for the VTF-3, of course. The Q control changes the response by tapering off the low frequencies in favor of the mid bass frequencies. The changes they make to the response are illustrated on Hsu's product page for the VTF-3.

 

[Pogre]

Thank you for the graph and explanation. It's pretty clear. Every time I get something new or look something up, there's more to it. I'm more of a newb than I thought when I first joined this site.

You guys really need to do something about all these rabbit holes around here. Somebody's gonna break an ankle. I've fallen into prolly a half dozen already...

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thank you for the graph and explanation. It's pretty clear. Every time I get something new or look something up, there's more to it. I'm more of a newb than I thought when I first joined this site.

You guys really need to do something about all these rabbit holes around here. Somebody's gonna break an ankle. I've fallen into prolly a half dozen already...

Don't worry. We'll patch you up!!!
I know you've been focusing on level matching and ports, etc, but have you done any phase adjustments? I can get 10db swings if I reverse one of them. At the very least, I'd invest in an spl meter, until you get the mic and rew(which can feel like a lobotomy after reading all the help articles lol). Till then, run the lfe test tone in the avr with your phone in the LP and move the phase knob on one sub and watch the spl. When you have the most output that will mean your subs are in phase.(both at 0 could be correct but you will see the level change)(also phase is frequency depend). Then, run tones(YouTube) from say 20 to 150hz taking notes as you did. Pay attention to XO spl readings and if you have a dip there move the distance in the avr. Add one foot at a time and see what the Spl at XO is. Crossover frequency range support and phase is important and can be tricky. Or, save slamming your head in a door, and just get a umik. Lol

 

[Pogre]

Don't worry. We'll patch you up!!!
I know you've been focusing on level matching and ports, etc, but have you done any phase adjustments? I can get 10db swings if I reverse one of them. At the very least, I'd invest in an spl meter, until you get the mic and rew(which can feel like a lobotomy after reading all the help articles lol). Till then, run the lfe test tone in the avr with your phone in the LP and move the phase knob on one sub and watch the spl. When you have the most output that will mean your subs are in phase.(both at 0 could be correct but you will see the level change)(also phase is frequency depend). Then, run tones(YouTube) from say 20 to 150hz taking notes as you did. Pay attention to XO spl readings and if you have a dip there move the distance in the avr. Add one foot at a time and see what the Spl at XO is. Crossover frequency range support and phase is important and can be tricky. Or, save slamming your head in a door, and just get a umik. Lol

Very informative! Thank you. I finally got a check I was waiting on, so I'll probably be ordering the dsp and mic today or tomorrow. NOW I can finally get dirty and see exactly what's going on in my room. I'm pretty stoked. Well, at least until I start taking measurements and have a meltdown...

 

[2channel lover]

You know what I'm discovering? And it makes sense to me too. I'm enjoying my music at lower volumes now. These VTF-3's barely need to move to produce deep bass and they're big enough for me to still feel it. Don't get me wrong, when I'm home alone or a favorite song comes up I'm turning it up, but for some background noise at low volumes it sounds better than with smaller subs. It's still enjoyable.

Some updated pics. We just got some new carpet too. My wife wanted tile. I stood firm on carpet. Acoustic reasons and I just like it better.

View attachment 20358

View attachment 20359

That's Misty in the foreground. She likes Tool and Chevelle too. I love this system and you guys helped me put it together. Thanks to everyone who put up with my slow learning curve and endless questions. I really mean it. This is the best sounding system I've ever owned.

I'd like to have the subs a little more symmetrical, but that's where they sound the best. if I move the left one on the other side of the speaker it'll be in a corner (with a sliding glass door) firing right into the end of a sofa. Plus it's a dead spot when doing the crawl. I'd also have to move the main speakers closer together and I'd actually like them further apart.

On the right is a little (very little) entry and the door swings in. I have about 1/4" clearance between it and the sub when the door is open. It's in the best spot judging from the sub crawl. The one on the left is in the 2nd best spot. That's why I started the thread on wireless options for at least one of them. I'd like to get one behind me and see how it behaves or if I'll have any localization issues. Then I'd be able to get some more distance between my mains.

Right now they're ~9 1/2 feet apart and I sit 14 1/2' from them, right in the middle. I took the pics from my chair. I think I can get them to at least 13' apart by moving the sub on the right into the kitchen behind me, though it does have tile floors. Will that pose any issues?

Congrats! I see you've pulled the trigger on the subs!

Your systems looks nice, I'm envious!!

I'm still working on it...probably another couple months to have the LCR speakers and subs funded...I've basically started over from scratch, aside from the plasma. Got the pre-pro (7702mkii) and amps (3 outlaw monoblocks for LCR), (emo A500 for zone 2 & 3) still debating on the surround amps, but most likely going with another emo but the 7ch (700). Noble Fidelity L85mkii ceiling in Z2 & 3. I already had LCR speakers and a sub, so I've been able to listen to music while the build is in progress...the mono block get more punch out of my B&W M804.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks! Though it sounds like you're going to be blowing my stuff away when it's all said and done. You've got some pretty impressive amplification to go with some very nice speakers.

 

[2channel lover]

Thanks! Though it sounds like you're going to be blowing my stuff away when it's all said and done. You've got some pretty impressive amplification to go with some very nice speakers.

Thanks as well. I don't know about blowing anything away.

We downsized from a house and was living in a rather small townhome for a yr while this current home was being built so all my audio equipment was boxed up, CDs in storage, etc.

We got moved in this house a couple of years ago, and I still had most of it in boxes until earlier this yr. My neighbor kind of started the itch again. He's got a really nice audio system that I've listened to a couple of times and I then realized that it was time to upgrade.

Although I still think my speakers sound pretty good to be 20 yrs old. The new ones I'm planning on getting I've heard and they are considerably better. And I've never really done HT right so I'm looking forward to the finish.

 

[2channel lover]

@Pogre ...I guess I could go back thru this thread and learn the details, but if you don't mind me asking...what subs did you end up getting? Secondly, how large is your listening space? And finally, is it open to other rooms in the house?

My space is not very large 17'wx16'dx9'h...roughly 2450 cu ft. but it's not 4 walls and a door...loft space with 3 openings to other rooms.

I've narrowed my search down to 3 subs.

Rythmik...Fv15HP
HSU...VTF-3mk5hp
HSU...VTF-15hmk2

 

[Pogre]

I got a pair of VTF-3 MK5 HP's and I'm really enjoying them. There are a lot of tuning options and I don't think I've tried them all yet.

My room is a great-room layout that opens to the kitchen behind me. It's about 15 x 28' with another room to one side, a den (no door, an archway) about 10 x 12'. Vaulted ceilings, 11' at the peak and a hallway. I haven't done the math for cubic feet, but it's a lot. The MK-3's do a great job of filling my space and after hours of playing with placement I have a very even bass response throughout the entire area. That's the bonus you get with 2 subs.

 

[Pogre]

I just took some quick measurements and did some rough math figuring my ceiling height average at 10' and came up with 5910 cu ft.

*Edit: Apparently I qualify for the "extreme room size" category for bassaholics. I did not know that. @William Lemmerhirt you nailed it when you said minimum 15" subs. I feel even better about my purchase now.

 

[2channel lover]

I got a pair of VTF-3 MK5 HP's and I'm really enjoying them. There are a lot of tuning options and I don't think I've tried them all yet.

My room is a great-room layout that opens to the kitchen behind me. It's about 15 x 28' with another room to one side, a den (no door, an archway) about 10 x 12'. Vaulted ceilings, 11' at the peak and a hallway. I haven't done the math for cubic feet, but it's a lot. The MK-3's do a great job of filling my space and after hours of playing with placement I have a very even bass response throughout the entire area. That's the bonus you get with 2 subs.

Thanks....very interesting...15x28 plus adjoining rooms...your volume of space is a lot larger than mine. My adjoining spaces...one opening goes to a hallway, bath and guest bedroom...I'm not that concerned about that one...loft has another hall to the staircase down and also an overlook opening that adjoins spaces and that's where I'm concerned...family room, kitchen and dining are all open with vaulted ceilings.

I'm pretty sure you've run the numbers, but I think the VTF3 price for 2 saves about $350 over the VTF15 and almost a grand over the FV15. I know someone that has the FV15, that thing is a beast, but he only has one. I was leaning that way because of all of that adjoining space, but I'm pausing now.

 

[Pogre]

The adjoining space does count, unless you can close some doors. I did some math above and came up with 5910 cu ft. I measured the hallway and adjoining room and calculated that in also.

All of what you're considering are great subs. You get a lot of bang for your buck with Hsu though.

 

[Klipschhead302]

The adjoining space does count, unless you can close some doors. I did some math above and came up with 5910 cu ft. I measured the hallway and adjoining room and calculated that in also.

All of what you're considering are great subs. You get a lot of bang for your buck with Hsu though.

I hate you right now....

My wife just had to have this house, no great room, just a living room, a 15x14 living room.... balls.


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