Why limit a subwoofer

[Pogre]

Pogre, firstly, ignore frequencies below 18 Hz. Your subs aren't aren't really designed to play those frequencies, unless you set them in sealed mode. Also keep in mind that your tablet's microphone isn't very accurate at deep frequencies, so you don't know how well it is measuring very low frequency sound. I wouldn't give it much credibility below 30 Hz. For now, just get the subs to where they sound good, and let the tweaking wait till later, when you have some real tools to get the job done, ie a good calibration mic and software like REW.

Yeah, I know. It's the ocd... *twitch*

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't think it's an exception to the rule.

People have used XO settings ranging from 40Hz - 150Hz, and people have placed their subwoofers at various locations based on what sounded best to them.

There is no 1 setting or 1 location.

If you've tried different XO settings and the 100Hz or 120Hz or 150Hz sounds best to you, then go with that. You can always easily change it anytime.

If your subwoofers sound best when they are close to your main speakers, then go with that.

 

[j_garcia]

Sub is pretty much personal preference. What mine calibrates to I usually drop it down a few notches because it only sounds good in the sweet spot and too loud everywhere else.

You want to limit it because the driver is typically chosen/designed for the range it is to reproduce. It does a particular range well and should be kept in its optimum range for best results IMO. I don't want my mains to try to do 20Hz tones for the same reason I don't want my sub trying to do 3K.

 

[lovinthehd]

What do you mean by CD Direct? That is your cd player on the cd input, in direct mode that still uses the sub and level/delay set by the dsp? Just curious, as my Denon and Onkyo avrs don't use the sub in direct mode (since direct is only 2.0 content, that's makes sense as to what direct means).

 

[j_garcia]

What do you mean by CD Direct? That is your cd player on the cd input, in direct mode that still uses the sub and level/delay set by the dsp? Just curious, as my Denon and Onkyo avrs don't use the sub in direct mode (since direct is only 2.0 content, that's makes sense as to what direct means).

If you have multichannel analog inputs, they bypass the AVR/pre's processing. A CD player via analog would not unless a "direct" mode was activated on the AVR/Pre.

 

[lovinthehd]

If you have multichannel analog inputs, they bypass the AVR/pre's processing. A CD player via analog would not unless a "direct" mode was activated on the AVR/Pre.

A cd player via analog would (generally, most cd players aside those capable of SACD multich) only have 2.0 available so not sure what your point is as to multi-ch inputs or my question about how direct mode is incorporating the sub.....i.e. I'm curious about @MrBoat's particular use of the term or what his specific source/avr setup is.

 

[j_garcia]

Some receivers/pre's have the ability to have the sub still in the mix even in direct mode I believe, but both the mains and sub would be playing the same frequencies.

 

[MrBoat]

Some receivers/pre's have the ability to have the sub still in the mix even in direct mode I believe, but both the mains and sub would be playing the same frequencies.

As is the case with mine. But my amp (Behringer nu3000dsp) can control what the sub plays. So now, (my PC is hooked up to the CD analog inputs on the AVR) I have the sub limited at about 50hz and the mains are bypassing the AVR's dsp, or tone controls, or whatever you want to call them. I can EQ both the sub, and the input from my desktop. The total input is via the soundcard on the pc, which has a 10 band, graphic EQ.

My main speakers, Fusion-12 Tempests, play down to the lower 40's and they do it well. Probably because of the 12" woofers and the size of my room along with the gains here as well.

Now via parametric and dynamic EQ in the Behringer software, which also is on my desktop, I have been experimenting with the filters, the low shelf and high shelf settings, different gain levels etc. It's just the long way around to figuring out specifically what does what.

It always sounded great, but now I am finding inter-tonal qualities in things like the lower bass guitar frequencies and percussion.

The sweet spot around these settings, along with the sound card's EQ, can be pretty big, and can be changed depending on what kind of music I am playing and helps, especially when recording quality may not be so great.

 

[MrBoat]

What do you mean by CD Direct? That is your cd player on the cd input, in direct mode that still uses the sub and level/delay set by the dsp? Just curious, as my Denon and Onkyo avrs don't use the sub in direct mode (since direct is only 2.0 content, that's makes sense as to what direct means).

CD direct on mine, still shows the display. Pure direct, turns off everything but the amps. Sub still plays regardless unless I shut it off in the speaker control menu. I could kind of achieve the same thing setting the fronts to Large, but then I would have the effects of the AVR coloring the main speakers. That's not bad, but direct is much better in my case. I am using my desktop pc, which has a CD player, as the CD on the AVR. It's been awhile but that is where I read to hook my computer Y cable to.

 

[MrBoat]

Sub is pretty much personal preference. What mine calibrates to I usually drop it down a few notches because it only sounds good in the sweet spot and too loud everywhere else.

You want to limit it because the driver is typically chosen/designed for the range it is to reproduce. It does a particular range well and should be kept in its optimum range for best results IMO. I don't want my mains to try to do 20Hz tones for the same reason I don't want my sub trying to do 3K.

Does this change between a sub with a single voice coil or a dual voice coil? Are there differences other than the impedance options between the two? I notice some subwoofers freq response are much different.

 

[shadyJ]

Singe voice coil will typically not have much of a difference from DVC in terms of performance.

 

[MrBoat]

I don't think it's an exception to the rule.

People have used XO settings ranging from 40Hz - 150Hz, and people have placed their subwoofers at various locations based on what sounded best to them.

There is no 1 setting or 1 location.

If you've tried different XO settings and the 100Hz or 120Hz or 150Hz sounds best to you, then go with that. You can always easily change it anytime.

If your subwoofers sound best when they are close to your main speakers, then go with that.

I'm just trying things and finding some surprises outside of the general consensus. Not out to prove, or disprove anything. It's interesting at any rate and I am enjoying what I am finding.

 

[Verdinut]

I don't have vocals coming from the subwoofer. I did get some of the bass notes from a regular guitar. It didn't clash with the mains or anything like that. I also set the sub to just overlap the lowest frequencies of the main speakers a bit. That sounds pretty righteous.

You're not listening to the right singers. Hear some basso profondos from Russia!

 

[Verdinut]

Pogre, firstly, ignore frequencies below 18 Hz. Your subs aren't aren't really designed to play those frequencies, unless you set them in sealed mode. Also keep in mind that your tablet's microphone isn't very accurate at deep frequencies, so you don't know how well it is measuring very low frequency sound. I wouldn't give it much credibility below 30 Hz. For now, just get the subs to where they sound good, and let the tweaking wait till later, when you have some real tools to get the job done, ie a good calibration mic and software like REW.

Pogre's subs are not going to reach lower frequencies at high output if their enclosures are sealed.

With any type of woofer, the low frequency response will start to roll off at a higher frequency in a sealed box than with a properly tuned ported box configuration, and it will lose efficiency because the back wave will be lost in the cabinet instead of getting out of it to amplify the front wave.

As stated above, with the sealed cabinet the woofer might reach lower frequencies but at a much lower output level which might not be that important or noticeable.

 

[Verdinut]

Does this change between a sub with a single voice coil or a dual voice coil? Are there differences other than the impedance options between the two? I notice some subwoofers freq response are much different.

Either one or two voice coils should not have any effect on the frequency response.

However, some subwoofers are designed to perform well for both cinema and music. Some are only meant to be used for sound effects in movies and they are not necessarily as linear in their frequency response, because high fidelity is not their purpose but mainly vibration and punch.

 

[shadyJ]

Pogre's subs are not going to reach lower frequencies at high output if their enclosures are sealed.

With any type of woofer, the low frequency response will start to roll off at a higher frequency in a sealed box than with a properly tuned ported box configuration, and it will lose efficiency because the back wave will be lost in the cabinet instead of getting out of it to amplify the front wave.

As stated above, with the sealed cabinet the woofer might reach lower frequencies but at a much lower output level which might not be that important or noticeable.

I understand that, but if he seals the cabinets, he might get some output below tuning, as opposed to none in ported modes, but probably not enough to worry about.

 

[lovinthehd]

CD direct on mine, still shows the display. Pure direct, turns off everything but the amps. Sub still plays regardless unless I shut it off in the speaker control menu. I could kind of achieve the same thing setting the fronts to Large, but then I would have the effects of the AVR coloring the main speakers. That's not bad, but direct is much better in my case. I am using my desktop pc, which has a CD player, as the CD on the AVR. It's been awhile but that is where I read to hook my computer Y cable to.

So an analog 2.0 output from your computer into line level inputs on the avr, and your bass management still works in your avr in direct....by coloring the speakers you mean duplicating frequencies in both sub and speakers? An LFE+Main setting as some avrs call that?

 

[MrBoat]

So an analog 2.0 output from your computer into line level inputs on the avr, and your bass management still works in your avr in direct....by coloring the speakers you mean duplicating frequencies in both sub and speakers? An LFE+Main setting as some avrs call that?

Yes, the sub still works in direct.

I notice an overall tonal change in the main speakers, or, "warmer" sounding for lack of a better explanation, in CD Stereo mode. Direct mode sounds more like my integrated amps of old. Stereo mode sounds fine. I can listen to it like that no problem.

The biggest difference between Stereo and Direct was with older recordings. They definitely like Direct mode better. This is the second time it has occurred to me. I listened in pure direct for awhile and went back to stereo mode when I started messing with the crossover settings for the sub in the AVR and just left it that way for awhile. Got busy for a few days and forgot what changes I had made.

The other day when we were exchanging tunes in the "What are you listening to" thread, I chanced back upon Direct and it woke things up a lot.

One cut, from Tom Scott & The L.A. Express, recorded in 1974, sounded marvelous in Direct comparatively. That sent me on a classic journey that lasted hours. Again with that album you posted, the tentacles one. I listened to that entire album in Direct mode, as intense as that one is, and the detail was astonishing. I've been working with it ever since.

 

[MrBoat]

I haven't checked if the actual crossover settings in the AVR are still available in Direct mode. I haven't gotten that far yet. But the Subwoofer pre out still does. I will be sure to check though.

 

[Verdinut]

I understand that, but if he seals the cabinets, he might get some output below tuning, as opposed to none in ported modes, but probably not enough to worry about.

If someone had access to the Thiele/Small parameters of the subwoofer, by entering the proper info into an appropriate software program such as BassBox Pro, he would be able to get a reasonably accurate answer for comparing the responses.