Help! Amplifier & AVR vs. just AVR for music?

[lovinthehd]

That's a good question.

I always assumed 1 Amp & 1 Speaker.

Otherwise, how would we calculate power for 5, 7, or 9 speakers at the same time?

What calculator do you use?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What calculator do you use?

The Crown Amp calculator.

http://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required

 

[tatony333]

This is all great info, I never realized sound had so much variables!
My seating position will be approx 11 to 12 feet away from fronts, I guess I'll have to wait and see if the denon x3300w is up to the task of powering the Rti a7's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[lovinthehd]

The Crown Amp calculator.

http://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required

Try this one instead to add in room effects and multiple speakers http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

The Crown one is more intended for professional large venue type situations

 

[little wing]

The problem is that you cannot go by the volume position alone, especially for music listening. There are just too many variables. For example, say you sit 8 ft away, now compared with someone who sits 16 ft away in the same room, that person will have to set the volume to -24 to get the same spl you are getting sitting 8ft away. So if your amp is outputting 2W for you, it will have to output 8W for that other person. That's just one factor, with more factors involved and compounding the issue, you can see that volume -30 just don't tell us enough to answer your question. YPAO should in theory calibrate your system to provide the spl per THX standard, that is 85 dB with volume at 0, but that's THX standard, and is specific for your room, at your MIC distance. It does not tell us anything about how much power you need just going by volume at -30. We need to know the power your AVR or amp is outputting at volume -30 in order to answer you question.

The online calculator linked below has been posted many times, but for your convenience, here it is again:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Enter the required data and it will tell you the maximum spl you should be getting at your listening position. Then the last step is, use a Radio Shack SPL meter to find out what is the average SPL you are getting when listening to music with volume set to -30. Please realize that it depends on the kind of music, some are mastered higher than others, so you should choose the music that you typically listen at volume -30. Come back with the two numbers (the online calculated spl at your amp's rated output, and the measured spl at your listening position), the rated output of your amp, and one of us will figure out how much power your amp, or AVR are outputting. If it is well below it's rated power, say 20-30 dB below, then adding a more powerful amp will unlikely improve dynamics or details.

My receiver is the Yamaha RX A3060 and my speakers are the Ascend Acoustics Towers. The couch is about 9 feet away from the speakers. The highest volume I will normally listen is about -20, and that is for relatively shorts periods of time. The music sounds very clean to me, at these volumes, which I consider quite high. But I admit I have not taken any measurements. My sub is from Rythmik (F12). My initial feeling was that I don't really need anymore amplifier power since the receiver is rated at 150 x 2, but I was curious as to what, say a 200 watt amp might do to improve sound.

 

[PENG]

My receiver is the Yamaha RX A3060 and my speakers are the Ascend Acoustics Towers. The couch is about 9 feet away from the speakers. The highest volume I will normally listen is about -20, and that is for relatively shorts periods of time. The music sounds very clean to me, at these volumes, which I consider quite high. But I admit I have not taken any measurements. My sub is from Rythmik (F12). My initial feeling was that I don't really need anymore amplifier power since the receiver is rated at 150 x 2, but I was curious as to what, say a 200 watt amp might do to improve sound.

My receiver is the Yamaha RX A3060 and my speakers are the Ascend Acoustics Towers. The couch is about 9 feet away from the speakers. The highest volume I will normally listen is about -20, and that is for relatively shorts periods of time. The music sounds very clean to me, at these volumes, which I consider quite high. But I admit I have not taken any measurements. My sub is from Rythmik (F12). My initial feeling was that I don't really need anymore amplifier power since the receiver is rated at 150 x 2, but I was curious as to what, say a 200 watt amp might do to improve sound.

Let me put it this way, if you normally watch movies at volume -20, or even -10, adding an amplifier of 200W per channel won't do anything for you because your Yamaha will be cruising at a fraction of a watt average output, with peaks of 30-40W.

My concern is that you keep referring to music. That's tricky because I cannot judge how loud you listen to music at volume -20. As I mentioned, some music source media are mastered so hot that even at -30 your amp could be driven to it's clipping point. I cited You-tube as an example, for some You-tube material I had to set my volume to -50.

So if you can confirm that you listen to, say, most blu ray movies, or live concerts such as Adele's, at -20, then your 3060 is averaging output of fractional watts with peaks to 30-40, or maybe 60W in some extreme scenarios with peaks that may last no more than a fraction of a second. That means the 3060 will not need any help at all, especially for two channel music.

 

[little wing]

Let me put it this way, if you normally watch movies at volume -20, or even -10, adding an amplifier of 200W per channel won't do anything for you because your Yamaha will be cruising at a fraction of a watt average output, with peaks of 30-40W.

My concern is that you keep referring to music. That's tricky because I cannot judge how loud you listen to music at volume -20. As I mentioned, some music source media are mastered so hot that even at -30 your amp could be driven to it's clipping point. I cited You-tube as an example, for some You-tube material I had to set my volume to -50.

So if you can confirm that you listen to, say, most blu ray movies, or live concerts such as Adele's, at -20, then your 3060 is averaging output of fractional watts with peaks to 30-40, or maybe 60W in some extreme scenarios with peaks that may last no more than a fraction of a second. That means the 3060 will not need any help at all, especially for two channel music.

Most movies are watched at a volume of around -25dbs, maybe slightly louder but not much. The dialogue and effects always sound clean with no strain or clipping, at least not to my ears. Music sounds dynamic and clean as well. I did listen to the Adele concert by the way and it sounded really good. I fretted a long time over whether or not to go the Av Pre Amp Power amp route, but the PRE PROs I was looking at (Anthem, Marantz, Yamaha) and say an Outlaw amp, would have cost me about 4k or more, that's why I ultimately chose a receiver. I was just wondering if I might be missing anything, but in all honesty the system sounds good and accurate. Last year I had these same speakers in a 11 by 14 room with a couch close to one speaker, and they sounded fuller. Now I have the system in a 12 1/2 by 17ft room with a small throw rug and sparse furniture and the speakers do sound a little different. More open for sure. I think maybe room treatment and a second sub down the line might be more helpful in my situation.

 

[little wing]

No.

short and sweet

 

[PENG]

little wing: Please also know that some of the predecessor of your RX-A3060, such as the RX-V2600 and V3900 had been bench tested to confirm their very capable "dynamic" output of 300-400W into 4 ohms and over 500W into 2 ohms if your speaker dip that low. I can provide the link if you are interested.

One can debate whether such short term (probably in the order of 20 ms) dynamic capability are useful, but in my opinion it is better to have it than not to have it. You won't find too many integrated or even power amps have such capability.

 

[little wing]

little wing: Please also know that some of the predecessor of your RX-A3060, such as the RX-V2600 and V3900 had been bench tested to confirm their very capable "dynamic" output of 300-400W into 4 ohms and over 500W into 2 ohms if your speaker dip that low. I can provide the link if you are interested.

One can debate whether such short term (probably in the order of 20 ms) dynamic capability are useful, but in my opinion it is better to have it than not to have it. You won't find too many integrated or even power amps have such capability.

Peng You are a wealth of information. Thank you. That link would make for interesting reading if you wouldn't mind providing. I also have the RX-V2500 that is no slouch in the power department. But this 3060 is a beast really. I am going to forgo the idea of adding an amp right now

 

[PENG]

Peng You are a wealth of information. Thank you. That link would make for interesting reading if you wouldn't mind providing. I also have the RX-V2500 that is no slouch in the power department. But this 3060 is a beast really. I am going to forgo the idea of adding an amp right now

Here it is one for the RX-V2400, 348V into 4 ohms at 0.5% THD:

http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/

for the RX-V2600, 413W into 4 ohms at 1% THD, 260.3W, 2 channel driven continuous, at 0.5% THD, also into 4 ohms

http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/download2006/reports/may06/yamaha_rxv2600_(analogue).html

and for the RX-V3900, 374W into 4 ohms at less than 0.75% THD, 475W at 0.181% TDH into 2 ohms.

Again, those are dynamic output tests, so expect the tests were for very short duration, but do read the full test results, there are pages of them and you will see that even the 2 channel continuous results were excellent, far exceeded their published specifications. The 5 channel test results were much lower, most likely due to the design of the protective circuit.

To read the RX-V2400 review you can just follow the link but to read the other two you have to register, only take a few minutes so I hope you don't mind.

Audioholics also has a full review on the RX-V2600, but they did not do the dynamic test IIRC.

Let me know what you think after, thanks.