Help! Amplifier & AVR vs. just AVR for music?

[tatony333]

Hi guys, I have a bit of a dilemma here hope you all can help. I am in the middle of renovating my basement, we are about 2 weeks out before its all done! I have a room that i will be using for movies and music together, the dimensions are aprrox 15x28 with the room opening up to a larger space in the back.
I purchased my speakers and reciever already for the front stage (2 polk rti a7 and polk csia6 centre) and a Denon avr-x3300w receiver I will be purchasing a svs sub. The front stage will be along the 15ft wall.
We will be enjoying movies in the room as a family quite often, I will be using the space for music alot personally. I have a opportunity to pick up a Emotiva basx a300 at a great price right now it belong to a work friend he needs to get rid of it right away.
I want to know if i hooked up the A300 to the denons preout will it make a noticable difference in sound?
I know the denon is rated at 105w 2ch driven and the a300 is rated at 150w 2ch rms. will the amp make a difference while listening to music? will it help the AVR while watching movies?
I would have loved to try it out to hear the difference myself but unfortunately im still 2 weeks away from the room being completed and he cant hold onto it for that long.
Thanks

 

[j_garcia]

Well, if it is a good price, it might be worth picking up. An additional 50w will give you more headroom and allow you to turn it up a bit more, but it will not technically "improve" the sound. Where the benefit comes is offloading that work from the receiver's power supply and that amp is only driving those two speakers. Ultimately it depends on how you listen.

 

[tatony333]

Well, if it is a good price, it might be worth picking up. An additional 50w will give you more headroom and allow you to turn it up a bit more, but it will not technically "improve" the sound. Where the benefit comes is offloading that work from the receiver's power supply and that amp is only driving those two speakers. Ultimately it depends on how you listen.

Thanks for the reply. i do like the option of being able to turn it up louder if needed. I know my speakers are not the best speakers around but they were the best i could buy in my budget. I have been researching online and i keep reading that the rti a7's like power and ultimately sound "better" when you feed them more quality wattage. Is this true? My dilemma i guess is do I buy the emotiva a300 at a great price now or do i hold off and purchase a more powerfull amp later on when my budget allows.
Thanks

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would wait and see how the Denon performs.

Most "FAMILIES" won't be listening to 100dB volume, but rather more like 80-90dB. The Polk rti a7 has a sensitivity of 89dB/watt/meter.

If you are sitting 4 meters away from the speakers and your volume is 90dB per speaker, then your amp only needs about 20 watts of power per speaker.

If your volume is 93dB per speaker, then 40W.

If volume is 96dB per speaker, then 80W.

If vol is 99dB, then 160W.

Doubling the power (from 100W to 200W) will get you 3dB of extra volume.

So I would wait and get a 200W amp IF the Denon TRULY needs the extra power.

http://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required

 

[tatony333]

I would wait and see how the Denon performs.

Most "FAMILIES" won't be listening to 100dB volume, but rather more like 80-90dB. The Polk rti a7 has a sensitivity of 89dB/watt/meter.

If you are sitting 4 meters away from the speakers and your volume is 90dB per speaker, then your amp only needs about 20 watts of power per speaker.

If your volume is 93dB per speaker, then 40W.

If volume is 96dB per speaker, then 80W.

If vol is 99dB, then 160W.

Doubling the power (from 100W to 200W) will get you 3dB of extra volume.

So I would wait and get a 200W amp IF the Denon TRULY needs the extra power.

http://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required

Wow. Thanks, that explanation on distance from and wattage was excellent. Yeah maby i'll wait and see what the Denon can do!
Thanks

 

[j_garcia]

I was going to say the same, the Denon may be enough, but until you try it out you won't know if you need the amp. Yes those speakers dip lower than a typical 8 ohm speaker and like power, but you still may not need the amp. To really get an appreciable bump in output, you'd need to step up to a more powerful amp compared to the 3300.

Most who say "improves" sound don't understand what is happening - you can turn it up louder without distortion and they perceive that as "better" when in fact it is just louder. That combined with the fact that they probably came from UNDER powering the speaker, anything would sound "better"

 

[tatony333]

I was going to say the same, the Denon may be enough, but until you try it out you won't know if you need the amp. Yes those speakers dip lower than a typical 8 ohm speaker and like power, but you still may not need the amp. To really get an appreciable bump in output, you'd need to step up to a more powerful amp compared to the 3300.

Most who say "improves" sound don't understand what is happening - you can turn it up louder without distortion and they perceive that as "better" when in fact it is just louder. That combined with the fact that they probably came from UNDER powering the speaker, anything would sound "better"

ok so maby well wait and save up for the xpa-gen3
Thanks guys!!

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd agree with the idea of trying the avr alone first; at least you have a model with pre-outs to have the option and I also would go bigger if I did get an external amp, maybe something like a Crown XLS1502 as long as your amp choice doesn't have aesthetic requirements highest on the list.

If all you have now are the three speakers/sub, then the avr may not show shortcomings until you add more speakers....ultimately I'd concentrate on higher sensitivity speakers to make your amp go further....

 

[Pogre]

I would wait and see how the Denon performs.

Most "FAMILIES" won't be listening to 100dB volume, but rather more like 80-90dB. The Polk rti a7 has a sensitivity of 89dB/watt/meter.

If you are sitting 4 meters away from the speakers and your volume is 90dB per speaker, then your amp only needs about 20 watts of power per speaker.

If your volume is 93dB per speaker, then 40W.

If volume is 96dB per speaker, then 80W.

If vol is 99dB, then 160W.

Doubling the power (from 100W to 200W) will get you 3dB of extra volume.

So I would wait and get a 200W amp IF the Denon TRULY needs the extra power.

http://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required

Is that for one, or both speakers? I couldn't find it on there, but I'm known to miss things on websites sometimes. If it is for one, would I add 3db to the sensitivity then?

 

[PENG]

ok so maby well wait and save up for the xpa-gen3
Thanks guys!!

That's a better plan. The XPA gen3 will give you more noticeable power, that the A300 may not. For now, just don't sit further than 12 ft, set your speakers to small, crossovers to 80 Hz, and the AVR should get you level as loud or almost as loud as you will get in the cinema. When listening to 2 channel music, the AVR's power supply has only two channels to feed, so it will do quite well too. If the A300 deal is really good, you can also consider getting it now and use it for the surround channels when you are ready for the XPA gen 3, but that only makes sense if you foresee increased power need in the future.

 

[j_garcia]

My kids have the A500 and it is a pretty nice amp actually. I like the size and the fact that it isn't like 70lbs like my XPA-5. A500 and the A300 are likely more powerful than most AVRs, but not to the point where they would be a serious upgrade from an AVR. A500 is meant to be used with something like the MC700 IMO.

 

[little wing]

Not to try and high jack this thread, but maybe this question might help the OP. I see threads all the time asking about adding external amps, and I know Gene did an article on the subject. But most responses to this question are met with questions like, how loud do you listen, what is the sensitivity of your speakers, how big is your room, are you using bass management, how far away are you from your speakers etc. But all things being equal, if I listen to music at -30db, then hook up an external amp, and listen to that same music at the same volume (-30db). are you likely to hear an improvement? More dynamics, more detail, etc.?

 

[lovinthehd]

Not to try and high jack this thread, but maybe this question might help the OP. I see threads all the time asking about adding external amps, and I know Gene did an article on the subject. But most responses to this question are met with questions like, how loud do you listen, what is the sensitivity of your speakers, how big is your room, are you using bass management, how far away are you from your speakers etc. But all things being equal, if I listen to music at -30db, then hook up an external amp, and listen to that same music at the same volume (-30db). are you likely to hear an improvement? More dynamics, more detail, etc.?

No.

 

[PENG]

Not to try and high jack this thread, but maybe this question might help the OP. I see threads all the time asking about adding external amps, and I know Gene did an article on the subject. But most responses to this question are met with questions like, how loud do you listen, what is the sensitivity of your speakers, how big is your room, are you using bass management, how far away are you from your speakers etc. But all things being equal, if I listen to music at -30db, then hook up an external amp, and listen to that same music at the same volume (-30db). are you likely to hear an improvement? More dynamics, more detail, etc.?

The problem is that you cannot go by the volume position alone, especially for music listening. There are just too many variables. For example, say you sit 8 ft away, now compared with someone who sits 16 ft away in the same room, that person will have to set the volume to -24 to get the same spl you are getting sitting 8ft away. So if your amp is outputting 2W for you, it will have to output 8W for that other person. That's just one factor, with more factors involved and compounding the issue, you can see that volume -30 just don't tell us enough to answer your question. YPAO should in theory calibrate your system to provide the spl per THX standard, that is 85 dB with volume at 0, but that's THX standard, and is specific for your room, at your MIC distance. It does not tell us anything about how much power you need just going by volume at -30. We need to know the power your AVR or amp is outputting at volume -30 in order to answer you question.

The online calculator linked below has been posted many times, but for your convenience, here it is again:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Enter the required data and it will tell you the maximum spl you should be getting at your listening position. Then the last step is, use a Radio Shack SPL meter to find out what is the average SPL you are getting when listening to music with volume set to -30. Please realize that it depends on the kind of music, some are mastered higher than others, so you should choose the music that you typically listen at volume -30. Come back with the two numbers (the online calculated spl at your amp's rated output, and the measured spl at your listening position), the rated output of your amp, and one of us will figure out how much power your amp, or AVR are outputting. If it is well below it's rated power, say 20-30 dB below, then adding a more powerful amp will unlikely improve dynamics or details.

 

[PENG]

No.

I think you are right, but you don't know that for sure. He could be listening to something that is mastered very hot, such that even at -30, the amp could theoretically be at or near it's limit. Again, I don't think that is the case, but let's not assume..

 

[lovinthehd]

I think you are right, but you don't know that for sure. He could be listening to something that is mastered very hot, such that even at -30, the amp could theoretically be at or near it's limit. Again, I don't think that is the case, but let's not assume..

Then again he doesn't specify what the specifics are, if the avr is calibrated to what standard (let alone the source), if the external amp has any more power than the avr's amp, the speakers, the material, etc. I'd go for 99% right

 

[PENG]

Then again he doesn't specify what the specifics are, if the avr is calibrated to what standard (let alone the source), if the external amp has any more power than the avr's amp, the speakers, the material, etc. I'd go for 99% right

I do agree -30 in all likelihood won't be very loud, but try listening to something on You tube you may agree with me. You have to try a few though, as they are just all over the place. So yes, I am concerned about the source that follows no standards. Sorry, no shortcuts for little wing.

 

[lovinthehd]

I do agree -30 in all likelihood won't be very loud, but try listening to something in You tube stuff you may agree with me. You have to try a few though, they are just all over the place. So yes, I am concerned about the source that follows no standards. Sorry, no shortcuts for little wing.

LOL I don't torture myself with most of the audio on youtube unless I have to but point taken; some on board avr sources via the net can be pretty hot too IME.....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not to try and high jack this thread, but maybe this question might help the OP. I see threads all the time asking about adding external amps, and I know Gene did an article on the subject. But most responses to this question are met with questions like, how loud do you listen, what is the sensitivity of your speakers, how big is your room, are you using bass management, how far away are you from your speakers etc. But all things being equal, if I listen to music at -30db, then hook up an external amp, and listen to that same music at the same volume (-30db). are you likely to hear an improvement? More dynamics, more detail, etc.?

When the Volume is absolutely level matched and no distortion and everything else being absolutely equal, I would say there is absolutely no improvement.

But I think the argument is that nothing is ever absolutely equal.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is that for one, or both speakers? I couldn't find it on there, but I'm known to miss things on websites sometimes. If it is for one, would I add 3db to the sensitivity then?

That's a good question.

I always assumed 1 Amp & 1 Speaker.

Otherwise, how would we calculate power for 5, 7, or 9 speakers at the same time?