Sub bottoming out

[Halon451]

sigh...

Just when I think I finally have my system dialed back in and tuned up something happens that leaves me once again frustrated.

Last night I decided to watch an old favorite of mine, "Fight Club" on blu-ray. *spoiler alert below caution* It's not a terribly action packed movie in terms of loud explosions, car chases and such and the Yamaha showed me I was processing the discs DTS-HD MA soundtrack. But there are a few scenes that throw a lot of LFE to the sub, particularly the explosion in Ed Norton's character's apartment, then again at the end when the buildings are detonated and brought down by Project Mayhem. Most of the film played very well, except those scenes in particular completely overwhelmed even my mighty SVS 12" ported sub. I had never before heard that sub actually bottom out and as long as I've had it now I didn't even think it was possible considering the work I've put it through. Nonetheless it happened and happened badly and I thought "well that's not good."

YPAO is set to manual EQ (copied from natural setting and tweaked to taste); levels are matched by YPAO and then double checked manually with my SPL meter at reference level. I do run the sub a few db hot but I've always done this and it never overworked the sub to the point of bottoming out. Just enough to add a bit more oomph to those types of scenes.

With the Yamaha RX-A2060 there is in fact an EQ curve for the sub but YPAO seems to do nothing to it below my crossover frequency of 80Hz. There's a big boost in the sub curve at around 130hz but it shouldn't have any effect as that frequency since that region is being directed back to my speakers right?

At any rate I have the ability to manually tweak sub level EQ but probably need to get an accurate measurement using REW and a calibrated mic. Would this be the recommended approach? Or is there anything else I can try?

A lot of other content seems much more balanced and no indication of bottoming out though with a few sources I've noticed it got rather close.

 

[Halon451]

Anyone here have any experience with the Antimode 8033? I know miniDSP gets recommended around here a lot, but I stumbled across some really good reviews on the Antimode unit which seems specifically built for subwoofers. Thought it appears to be a European product, I found a few online retailers who are selling it in the US.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I quit looking when I saw the price. They've been reviewed and recommended a lot, but you can do better for less. I use a Behringer feedback destroyer. 40 bucks. Still had the plastic wrap on it. Steep learning curve but there is a very in depth guide and lots of tips available.

 

[Halon451]

Agreed. $500 USD is a bit rich for my blood. Could almost get me to sub #2 for that price. How is it you use the behringer FBD for your sub?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

One of its functions is parametric EQ. If you don't want to go manual you can use it with REW and a midi connection. Sorry if I'm too short. On the road at the moment...(parking lot, lol)

 

[Pogre]

Which one do you have Halon? I'm remembering PB13 Ultra? Or is it the PB2000?

 

[shadyJ]

Any of the newer SVS subs should not be bottoming out at all. If it is a model with the Sledge amps, there might actually be something wrong with the driver.

But if it is using the older analogue amps and the driver is in good shape, you might think about getting a miniDSP and putting a high pass filter on it, plus you have the ability to EQ the subs better as well.

Another thing to consider is the sub simply does not have enough headroom for how loud you want to watch- and if you were driving it to bottom out, believe me you were running into a whole lot of distortion prior to that point. You might just thing about replacing it with a more powerful subwoofer.

 

[Halon451]

Which one do you have Halon? I'm remembering PB13 Ultra? Or is it the PB2000?

It's the older PB12-NSD, most comparable to their PB-2000 now. I "think" it's their original version before they started making them with the 400 watt Sledge amp.

 

[Halon451]

Any of the newer SVS subs should not be bottoming out at all. If it is a model with the Sledge amps, there might actually be something wrong with the driver.

But if it is using the older analogue amps and the driver is in good shape, you might think about getting a miniDSP and putting a high pass filter on it, plus you have the ability to EQ the subs better as well.

Another thing to consider is the sub simply does not have enough headroom for how loud you want to watch- and if you were driving it to bottom out, believe me you were running into a whole lot of distortion prior to that point. You might just thing about replacing it with a more powerful subwoofer.

See my reply above. I think it's a version without the Sledge amp. I doubt the driver is bad I push it and have pushed it often but never to the point of breaking up like that. Knowing my system and the limitations I've experienced with the newer receivers inability to properly address PEQ in the sub region it seems I've got an erroneous frequency peak somewhere between 20 and 80hz that is driving it over the edge. Maybe if I can identify that peak and tamp if down using the Yammy's manual EQ adjust?

Most of the LFE sounds are coming through pretty solidly without distortion or bottoming out. if the driver was bad I don't think I'd be hearing that. It would tend to sound bad at all frequencies, no?

 

[Halon451]

Hence my thinking that REW might pretty explicitly display such a problematic frequency fairly easily. If I need a finer level of adjustment then what the AVR offers, I could then pony up for the miniDSP but the manual EQ on the Yammy is fairly decent. I can select several bands and adjust the Q, so it may be all I need to do.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

See my reply above. I think it's a version without the Sledge amp. I doubt the driver is bad I push it and have pushed it often but never to the point of breaking up like that. Knowing my system and the limitations I've experienced with the newer receivers inability to properly address PEQ in the sub region it seems I've got an erroneous frequency peak somewhere between 20 and 80hz that is driving it over the edge. Maybe if I can identify that peak and tamp if down using the Yammy's manual EQ adjust?

Most of the LFE sounds are coming through pretty solidly without distortion or bottoming out. if the driver was bad I don't think I'd be hearing that. It would tend to sound bad at all frequencies, no?

Even if it is a peak, it's the room producing it, not the sub. Peaks are feee output, so your sub isn't doing more work, it's just a buildup at those frequencies.

 

[shadyJ]

See my reply above. I think it's a version without the Sledge amp. I doubt the driver is bad I push it and have pushed it often but never to the point of breaking up like that. Knowing my system and the limitations I've experienced with the newer receivers inability to properly address PEQ in the sub region it seems I've got an erroneous frequency peak somewhere between 20 and 80hz that is driving it over the edge. Maybe if I can identify that peak and tamp if down using the Yammy's manual EQ adjust?

Most of the LFE sounds are coming through pretty solidly without distortion or bottoming out. if the driver was bad I don't think I'd be hearing that. It would tend to sound bad at all frequencies, no?

As was said, peak has nothing to do with over-driving the sub. It is far more likely to be related to a null, at least if you have tried to EQ the null.

As for the driver being bad, if it was knocked out of alignment, it would sound normal except that it would be bottoming out more easily than normal. Have you moved the sub recently? Has it experienced some kind of bump or shock?

 

[Halon451]

As was said, peak has nothing to do with over-driving the sub. It is far more likely to be related to a null, at least if you have tried to EQ the null.

As for the driver being bad, if it was knocked out of alignment, it would sound normal except that it would be bottoming out more easily than normal. Have you moved the sub recently? Has it experienced some kind of bump or shock?

Nah not at all. I have moved it but definitely haven't knocked it or anything. It sits on a foam isolation pad so when I move it I usually just slide it across the floor on that thing.

 

[shadyJ]

If the driver is fine, then the sub is just running out of steam at low frequencies and is over-riding the limiter. You could put in some kind of high-pass filter- or you could get a subwoofer that has the headroom that can cope with the levels you are listening at.

 

[Halon451]

Even if it is a peak, it's the room producing it, not the sub. Peaks are feee output, so your sub isn't doing more work, it's just a buildup at those frequencies.

How can you tell the difference? At least to my ears it sure sounded like the sub was waffling during those scenes.

I do have some noticeable nulls in the room but at the listening position it seems to be fairly decent. I haven't EQ'd anything below my crossover frequency. It shows a flat line on the curve in the receiver settings < 80hz so YPAO didn't touch it either.

 

[lovinthehd]

Has this been experienced with any but this one soundtrack?

 

[Halon451]

Btw that waffling bottomed out sound was audible everywhere in the room even when I stood in locations where I know I have a null. It was coming from the sub.

And again, been using this sub a long time, never had these issues and listened to movies at the same volumes. It's yet another deviation in my sound quality after buying the new AVR.

 

[Halon451]

Has this been experienced with any but this one soundtrack?

Not quite as severely. Like I said there have been other sources where it seemed to come close but didn't go into full spazz mode like it did with this one.

 

[Verdinut]

I strongly suspect that you are driving your system at SPLs over reference level and that you would most likely need a second sub.

 

[lovinthehd]

Not quite as severely. Like I said there have been other sources where it seemed to come close but didn't go into full spazz mode like it did with this one.

Might look into some more heavy hitting soundtracks and see what happens. Saw no particular comments as to issues with this soundtrack at data-bass.com in this thread at least. What master volume setting was this at? You raise sub level via avr? By how much?