Stereo amps Vs AVRs

[MrBoat]

Well dude, nice for you if you have 40 years of experience. A very few people have that experience in audio and a lot of peoples want to have "a good sound", so for that you need help when you don't have experience in audio, a help like RoomPerfect. And it's a VERY BIG difference between RoomPerfect On and Off, so I'm glad. Like I said, I don't have experience in audio, I study for years "how to anaesthetised people". So for that I need help in audio

I didn't come here to argue with people with experience who can manage the EQ by him self. But in the same time I can't admit opinions where people want to say an AVR can make the job like an integrate amp. I had listened a lots of AVR and integrate amp, with different price and always the integrate amp had better sound quality. Ah, one with experience can do the settings to have a better sound quality for stereo with an AVR, that for sure or even to make to sound like some cheap integrate amp, here I don't talk about +$3500 AVR, I talk about AVRs like mine, $1500-2000.
And to clarify, with the integrate amp i have much more "relief" in my music, much more dynamics, a better clarity between the instruments, like I told ya already, in the moment where the drummer "come out" in the Hey you - Pink Floyed, i had the impression he was in front of me, which with the SR6011 wasn't the same, with the Marantz it's VERY FLAT sound.

Don't forgot a think, VERY FEW(this one who have this job can do it, I mean you must study for years and years like others study medicine or engineering to what you want) people can manage a audio system like you can or others like you. So for them a think like RoomPerfect it's something amazing.

It's very sad when most of people here want "to take away" the happiness of someone saying he did a very bad choice. But the EGO is at very high level I see, here people don't want to help being impartial, they just want to impose their point of view, otherwise is not ok. Maybe in the future you can see the point of the people what they ask and give a answer to that not what you like to do.

It didn't take 40 years to get this experience. Audio is not as complicated as the salesmen like to make you think. If you do not have all this software and computer, you will figure out how to make it work if you want to. Almost nobody these days agrees with me on this. Most people cannot fathom that a human being can make these adjustments. Even though a human being designed and analyzed the equipment that makes these adjustments for you. A computer was not born knowing how to do this. A human being had to teach it how, initially at least.

I think perhaps this minor language barrier is making this discussion more difficult. Also, "dude" is kind of disrespectful in this context with regard to your elders from different generations who were raised with better manners. It's showing your lack of experience with a lot of things. No young person in real life calls me "dude." That would be like me calling you "junior," or "boy," to fortify my opinion. I am just telling you these things because others that read this may never have the funds for a $4000 amplifier. If they know that they can get an audibly similar performance from something less, just by figuring out how to do so themselves, then more people have good sounds and maybe the salesmen have to work more (fat chance) honestly.

I agree that the integrated amp can make better sound for "you." But you cannot say it makes it better for everyone. There are other tricks to achieve this. Many here have said great speakers are one of those ways. It's as true, or even more so than what you are claiming. There is a middle road with these things that can combine to make the best of all worlds. But that will not afford the salesman/marketer his Ferrari in one day.

There are only so many adjustments a computer can make to your equipment. While it may generally optimize it for your space, it does not mean it is the best sound or even close. There are too many factors involved. The computer would have to design your speakers, your room, and perform surgery on your ears and your brain to do this. It is possible that many people's environment will allow them to achieve the same level of performance or beyond with less. For all you know, both of our setups could be producing the same exact sounds, just with the differences in environment alone.

 

[Bucknekked]

I think perhaps this minor language barrier is making this discussion more difficult. Also, "dude" is kind of disrespectful in this context with regard to your elders from different generations who were raised with better manners. It's showing your lack of experience with a lot of things. No young person in real life calls me "dude." That would be like me calling you "junior," or "boy," to fortify my opinion.

MrBoat
I can't pass the "dude" comment up. It's too good. You are more correct than you know.

I will skip most of the story, but, a few years ago I worked with an executive that called 90% of the folks who came in to his office and sat in the chair in front of him "dude". Dude, was his favorite handle for talking to most of the folks he was in charge of, or vendors who came to call on him.

Skip forward to a roast done on him by his best buds on the occasion of his wedding. One of his best buds gave us the key to this fellows expressions. In other words, what did this fellow mean when he said "xx" expression. The very first one he explained was the meaning of "dude". When this guy called you "dude", what he meant was "moron". He then decoded many other clever and cool sounding expressions.

When he said that, the entire room erupted in laughter. And then some very squinted eyes. He'd called practically everyone there "dude" many, many times. It was a lot less fun being called dude by this guy after the bachelor party explanation.

Surely that means we should be careful of calling people nicknames like dude unless we know them.
Yeah, and don't call me Shirley.

 

[whiplash]

It didn't take 40 years to get this experience. Audio is not as complicated as the salesmen like to make you think. If you do not have all this software and computer, you will figure out how to make it work if you want to. Almost nobody these days agrees with me on this. Most people cannot fathom that a human being can make these adjustments. Even though a human being designed and analyzed the equipment that makes these adjustments for you. A computer was not born knowing how to do this. A human being had to teach it how, initially at least.

I think perhaps this minor language barrier is making this discussion more difficult. Also, "dude" is kind of disrespectful in this context with regard to your elders from different generations who were raised with better manners. It's showing your lack of experience with a lot of things. No young person in real life calls me "dude." That would be like me calling you "junior," or "boy," to fortify my opinion. I am just telling you these things because others that read this may never have the funds for a $4000 amplifier. If they know that they can get an audibly similar performance from something less, just by figuring out how to do so themselves, then more people have good sounds and maybe the salesmen have to work more (fat chance) honestly.

I agree that the integrated amp can make better sound for "you." But you cannot say it makes it better for everyone. There are other tricks to achieve this. Many here have said great speakers are one of those ways. It's as true, or even more so than what you are claiming. There is a middle road with these things that can combine to make the best of all worlds. But that will not afford the salesman/marketer his Ferrari in one day.

There are only so many adjustments a computer can make to your equipment. While it may generally optimize it for your space, it does not mean it is the best sound or even close. There are too many factors involved. The computer would have to design your speakers, your room, and perform surgery on your ears and your brain to do this. It is possible that many people's environment will allow them to achieve the same level of performance or beyond with less. For all you know, both of our setups could be producing the same exact sounds, just with the differences in environment alone.

Dear Sir, so sorry if you are feel offended, but that tells me a lot of your "capacity" and your frustration, and here doesn't matter the generations or any thing else. If you can't argument and you go to "link" about a word, that say a lot.

And I have really enough of you all who still go to saying are the same thing the Marantz SR6011 with Lyngdorf TDAI-2170. NOT JUST FOR ME MAKE BETTER SOUND! And like I said I'm pretty sure even with your experience you can't GIVE the relief to the sound with the Marantz which I have with Lyngdorf.

And for all those who read that and don't have experience like me, I say to them to go to the store and to listen the same speakers with an AVR and with an integrate amp and after that to take the decision.

 

[Bucknekked]

It didn't take 40 years to get this experience. Audio is not as complicated as the salesmen like to make you think.

I agree that the integrated amp can make better sound for "you." But you cannot say it makes it better for everyone. There are other tricks to achieve this.

MrBoat
Along with the dude thing, which I wrote a separate post for, I sing your praises on the rest of your observations. It didn't take me 40 years to get good at listening to audio either. It only took me a few trips to the store to figure out the guy at the store was more interested in selling stuff than helping me find the best sounding stuff. It only took me a few magazine reviews to figure out most writers in the audio industry live in a different realm than I do and they play by very different rules than my world has.

I enjoy the AH forums because its a very different approach to the audio hobby than you'll see most other places. More facts for sure. More objective information for sure. And plenty of hard headed believers with a point of view they wish to make sure you understand.

I enjoy your point of view because its a lot like mine. That don't mean we're right of course.
Oh, who am I kidding. Of course we're right.

 

[whiplash]

MrBoat
I can't pass the "dude" comment up. It's too good. You are more correct than you know.

I will skip most of the story, but, a few years ago I worked with an executive that called 90% of the folks who came in to his office and sat in the chair in front of him "dude". Dude, was his favorite handle for talking to most of the folks he was in charge of, or vendors who came to call on him.

Skip forward to a roast done on him by his best buds on the occasion of his wedding. One of his best buds gave us the key to this fellows expressions. In other words, what did this fellow mean when he said "xx" expression. The very first one he explained was the meaning of "dude". When this guy called you "dude", what he meant was "moron". He then decoded many other clever and cool sounding expressions.

When he said that, the entire room erupted in laughter. And then some very squinted eyes. He'd called practically everyone there "dude" many, many times. It was a lot less fun being called dude by this guy after the bachelor party explanation.

Surely that means we should be careful of calling people nicknames like dude unless we know them.
Yeah, and don't call me Shirley.

Thank you for the explication. I thought "dude" it's something friendly, a synonym to "man" or "budy".
Didn't thought is a rude expression. At least i use it with my friends who lives in US or UK and they are not offended about that.

 

[Mark of Cenla]

I have listened to five pairs of speakers with an integrated amp (Onkyo A-9050) and an AVR (Pioneer VSX-523k), and there is very little difference in the sound in the same room with the same speakers. The speakers are these:

Polk Rti4
Polk RtiA1
Boston Acoustics A26
Pioneer SP-BS23LR
Sony SS-CS5 (Core)

To me there is not much of a difference between an integrated amp and an AVR (or most other receivers). Peace and goodwill.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you for the explication. I thought "dude" it's something friendly, a synonym to "man" or "budy".
Didn't thought is a rude expression. At least i use it with my friends who lives in US or UK and they are not offended about that.

"man" and "buddy" aren't particularly respectful either but somewhat depends on your familiarity with the person, their age and location (in Los Angeles dude is far more common than many places ). "man" is similar to "dude" but a bit older, more a 60s/70s thing, dude came along later. I'd say a stranger calling me dude or man is pushing it a bit, though; sir would be too much on the other hand. No reason to address anyone with "dude" "man" or even "sir" in a post, we know who is being addressed if you simply use the handle or use a quote.

 

[Bucknekked]

"man" and "buddy" aren't particularly respectful either but somewhat depends on your familiarity with the person, their age and location (in Los Angeles dude is far more common than many places ). "man" is similar to "dude" but a bit older, more a 60s/70s thing, dude came along later. I'd say a stranger calling me dude or man is pushing it a bit, though; sir would be too much on the other hand. No reason to address anyone with "dude" "man" or even "sir" in a post, we know who is being addressed if you simply use the handle or use a quote.

The older I get, and the more silver in my hair, I get the "sir" comment from the youngin's way too much for my liking. I think most youngin's that use the sir comment do so in a genuine fashion: a term of respect. But, for me, I just don't feel like being a sir. I still work for a living. I still struggle with things. I don't feel like a sir, but, I guess as I get greyer I'm doomed to hear it at the grocery store more and more.

I believe your observations on dude being a more west coast phenomenon may be correct. I tend to look at dude as kind of a surfer culture thing. Perhaps along the coasts where surfin is prevaient, I would think dudes get more mention.

I think the moral of the story on terms of address is well stated by lovinthehd: no need to use a term of address on a forum. In real life, you know more about the people you speak with and you can afford more intimate and casual forms of address. In a forum, using a cute term or form of address is bound to come off the rails sooner or later

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Futile.

Trying to change people's audio-religion is futile. If they don't find the answers themselves, which often requires a lot of time and money, it's impossible to convince them.

I have a friend who tried to convince me that lossless audio played via $7,500 pre-pros, $3,000 amps, and $22,000 speakers will still not sound as good as Vinyl on his $1,000 Onkyo Integrated Amp and his $1,000 Polk speakers.

No matter how much you explain, how many double-blind studies you quote, it is Futile.

 

[Bucknekked]

Futile.

Trying to change people's audio-religion is futile. If they don't find the answers themselves, which often requires a lot of time and money, it's impossible to convince them.

No matter how much you explain, how many double-blind studies you quote, it is Futile.

I have seen some of the "analog is superior" posts and of course the vinyl lovers posts as well. While I don't begrudge anyone their heartfelt opinions, its when you come to a public forum based on a topic and expound a point of view that just doesn't measure up that the heartburn sets in for me. Your quoted example of vinyl verses digital methods is apt.

I suppose the problem of "changing peoples minds" is more universal than audio. Trying to get anyone, even yourself, to change an opinion or behavior can be treacherous business. People are, in my opinion, remarkably resistant to change and almost impervious to advice. It is truly a wonder that as many opinions get changed as they do on a forum like AH. I have changed many of mine since hanging out here. Maybe not by leaps and bounds, but I have definitely modified my views on many topics. In my own defense, I did come here to learn and not to expound so maybe that's why I am vulnerable to learning new ideas. I am still here to learn. I hope folks keep putting out good ideas.

 

[whiplash]

Futile.

Trying to change people's audio-religion is futile. If they don't find the answers themselves, which often requires a lot of time and money, it's impossible to convince them.

I have a friend who tried to convince me that lossless audio played via $7,500 pre-pros, $3,000 amps, and $22,000 speakers will still not sound as good as Vinyl on his $1,000 Onkyo Integrated Amp and his $1,000 Polk speakers.

No matter how much you explain, how many double-blind studies you quote, it is Futile.

Yes, maybe just in my brain and others brains of peoples who listening my system with AVR and after with integrate amp find a huge difference. Maybe we all are idiots. Just the simple fact of having an $4000 integrate amp give us an impression of a better sound. I will ask at one of my friends, who is psychiatrist to give me some treatment, but hell, even him made this difference. Well don't know what to do.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, maybe just in my brain and others brains of peoples who listening my system with AVR and after with integrate amp find a huge difference. Maybe we all are idiots. Just the simple fact of having an $4000 integrate amp give us an impression of a better sound. I will ask at one of my friends, who is psychiatrist to give me some treatment, but hell, even him made this difference. Well don't know what to do.

So when you had your friends over you had both the integrated amp and avr hooked up, level matched and quick switching so that you could compare with some degree of accuracy (let alone a blind comparison)? Useless information otherwise. Many say their wives can tell the difference when actually the wife is probably just being nice to her husband with his crazy hobby Ask your psychiatrist friend if he is aware of the myriad claims in audio that are supported mostly by expectational bias.....

 

[whiplash]

I prefer to stop any comment because otherwise I will start to be very "acide". Many of you are already more than "acide" in yours comment. Like I said, it's not even worth to "listen" many of you, because you really don't know about you are talking about. I really wish one of you, who still say I did a bad choice to have the occasion to "listen" the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170, damn, I really wish that and after to come here and to describe the feeling. But maybe having that frustration(cause I didn't "listening" yours opinions, I mean to remain just with the AVR, and that after I show you a few test made by this site by qualify people, not like me without experience, where "it's obvious" an AVR, and most the cheap AVRs can't be compared in stereo with a decent integrate amp, and don't forgot, I have MUCH MORE than a decent integrate amp ) you manifest, even after listening, you will start to say bulls... .

But for all my "FRIENDS" I want to say it again and LOUD, I'm damn so HAPPY about my choice!

Kind regards

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Maybe we all are idiots

Nobody here ever said that.

I see double-blind drug studies all the time at the hospital where I work. There is one study going right now as I type this.

Of course, drug studies can't truly be compared to audio studies (amps, speakers), but the goal is the same - to remove as much human bias as possible.

What do you think about double-blind studies comparing amplifiers? Do you think they are valid?

 

[whiplash]

Nobody here ever said that.

I see double-blind drug studies all the time at the hospital where I work. There is one study going right now as I type this.

Of course, drug studies can't truly be compared to audio studies (amps, speakers), but the goal is the same - to remove as much human bias as possible.

What do you think about double-blind studies comparing amplifiers? Do you think they are valid?

I dunno what are you comparing, but seems you all want just to make me to say, yes AVR it's at least the same or even better in sound quality like an integrate amp. But hell no, never you will hear that from me.

I dunno exactly what you want to say with double-blind studies, but if you mean the studies made by other people with speakers or amplifiers or what will be, it's hard to say yes I trust them 100%. Anytime is coming the doubt did they say the real thing or was they payed to say that, but if you think like that, you will never buy nothing. And here in France are some site about audio who can be trusted. I mean, when you see thousand and thousand of test about a lots of brands who most are big rivals you tend to believe at least something about they are saying. And what I'm concerned about my choice with the integrate amp, I read test made by french peoples, by italian peoples(I speak both languages) and by germans people(I use google translate, and it's so damn bad the translation ).
I read all that and joined the forums because it's true, I had fear to spend so much money and to do not have the satisfaction, much better sound quality. But I really have and I really enjoy it!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I dunno what are you comparing, but seems you all want just to make me to say, yes AVR it's at least the same or even better in sound quality like an integrate amp. But hell no, never you will hear that from me.

I dunno exactly what you want to say with double-blind studies, but if you mean the studies made by other people with speakers or amplifiers or what will be, it's hard to say yes I trust them 100%. Anytime is coming the doubt did they say the real thing or was they payed to say that, but if you think like that, you will never buy nothing. And here in France are some site about audio who can be trusted. I mean, when you see thousand and thousand of test about a lots of brands who most are big rivals you tend to believe at least something about they are saying. And what I'm concerned about my choice with the integrate amp, I read test made by french peoples, by italian peoples(I speak both languages) and by germans people(I use google translate, and it's so damn bad the translation ).
I read all that and joined the forums because it's true, I had fear to spend so much money and to do not have the satisfaction, much better sound quality. But I really have and I really enjoy it!

This amp/preamp/integrate amp/AVR debate will last forever. So nobody expects everyone to agree. We expect people to disagree.

But if you are asking for opinions, you got them. It's not about "Right & Wrong".

Everything we say is based on our own experience.

So the bottom line is, some people believe that AVR will sound every bit as good or better than integrated amps. Some people think integrated amps sound better than AVR.

The salient thing is that we all enjoy our systems. Many of us are just looking for better seats, music, movies, and TV shows to enjoy.

 

[Dave Blount]

This amp/preamp/integrate amp/AVR debate will last forever. So nobody expects everyone to agree. We expect people to disagree.

But if you are asking for opinions, you got them. It's not about "Right & Wrong".

Everything we say is based on our own experience.

So the bottom line is, some people believe that AVR will sound every bit as good or better than integrated amps. Some people think integrated amps sound better than AVR.

The salient thing is that we all enjoy our systems. Many of us are just looking for better seats, music, movies, and TV shows to enjoy.

Agreed and with that being said I'll take a top quality integrated over an AVR for two channel application any day of the week.

 

[sterling shoote]

OP,
I have no experience with an AVR. I have no experience with an integrated amp. All of my experience has been with pre and power amplification, both stereo and multi-channel. I've never thought much about these devices as having a sound. I do think about these products however as being quiet and powerful enough to drive my speakers without clipping. I also think about my preamplifier's control capabilities over the sort of source components I want to integrate into my system. So far, my 17 year old Sony TA-E9000ES pre/pro and Sony TA-P9000ES multi-channel analog preamp have accommodated me. And now, having added an Airport Express streamer to my pre/pro I can even enjoy my music wirelessly from computer or iPhone. I mention my experience since it appears I have power amplification and control amplification qualifications not centered upon a sound appeal. It's why I think I've just spent too much time with this thread. It's two or three minutes of leisure time I'll never get back, which could have been spent on a thread more meaningful to me on this forum. At any rate, from the responses you've made to posts here, it seems you want to argue with many here having very informed opinions. What's the point of that? Let it roll, dude. If you really want opinion, then consider them grasshopper, LOL.

 

[panteragstk]

Agreed and with that being said I'll take a top quality integrated over an AVR for two channel application any day of the week.

I think this discussion would have more relevance if it stuck to a specific quality level.

If both pieces are under say $500 I don't see how one could possibly sound better unless the amp section is better and the speaker is hard to drive.

If we're talking say over $2000 per unit I'd really hope an integrated amp at that price would have better amp section than a receiver in that price range. Will it matter? I would say that totally depends on the speakers and their difficult ohm loads.

I will say that from personal experience the only thing that has ever made my system sound better is better speakers...

 

[Dave Blount]

I think this discussion would have more relevance if it stuck to a specific quality level.

If both pieces are under say $500 I don't see how one could possibly sound better unless the amp section is better and the speaker is hard to drive.

If we're talking say over $2000 per unit I'd really hope an integrated amp at that price would have better amp section than a receiver in that price range. Will it matter? I would say that totally depends on the speakers and their difficult ohm loads.

I will say that from personal experience the only thing that has ever made my system sound better is better speakers...

Agreed, my reply was meant as an 'apples to apples' comparison .