Best subwoofer for money under 2000€

[rojo]

What are the dimensions of your room? Is there any openings to other areas?

His room is ~1581 cubic feet. It is a square room, 4m x 4m x 2.8m. There are two doorways.

@Morquecho I think going dual subs will be of greater importance in your situation, as square rooms tend to have difficult acoustics. That said, it is a smaller room, so you won't need a lot of output. I think two of these BK Elec Platinum subs would give you plenty of output for that space for roughly the same price as a single SVS SB2000 or XTZ 1x12. Or with a little smaller footprint, the 10" XLS200. If you aren't that concerned about floor real estate and prefer ground shaking output with the deepest notes, then go with a pair of Monolith+. If you are limited to choose solely between the SVS and the XTZ subs, go with the XTZ. You get an excellent discount, and the ability to choose sealed or ported at will offers far greater flexibility than the SB2000 would offer.

Tuning dual subs can be a little tricky though. Which receiver do you use? Unless your AVR already offers independent correction of dual subwoofers, do you enjoy tweaking and fiddling with electronics, exerting complete control? Or would you prefer to give up a little control and spend a little more for easy and automatic?

Re: mains, Marshall Guthrie reviewed the XTZ Cinema series quite favorably. I've also heard nice things about the Revels you're considering. I'd say start with whichever offers you the lowest risk in-home trial. If you can return the Revels without having to pay return shipping, start with those; or likewise with the XTZ. In the U.S., XTZ offers free shipping both ways. Not sure whether the same holds true with shipping to Finland though.

 

[shadyJ]

His room is ~1581 cubic feet. It is a square room, 4m x 4m x 2.8m. There are two doorways.

Oops I missed that in his post somehow. I think in a room like that, the SB-2000s will suffice. The 1x12s may still be very good though, since it supports a sealed operating mode with an included port plug.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Hi guys, I'm a bit late to the party, but have a similar question.

I am actually almost in the same situation. Live in Finland, want to get 2 subs, use is for movies, music and gaming, more or less in equal proportion, and budget is similar, some €2000. My room is 4ish x 4 x 2.8 mts with 2 door openings.

I have narrowed it down to the SVS SB-2000 and the XTZ 1x12, those seem to be the best options for my room size, since the SB13-ultra and the 3x12 would be way too much for my room dimensions.
Prices are similar, SVS is €850 in black ash, piano gloss is €950, and XTZ is also €850 only matte black, the good thing is that I can get the XTZs with a discount for €700 each.
How do they compare in performance?

I have been looking as speakers as well, and if I get the SVS, I would match the subs with the concerta2 M16/C25/S16 speakers (they sound great and come in gloss black as well).
If i get the XTZ, I would match the subs with probably the rest of the cinema series since the color is the same and they seem to be well regarded.
What do you think about Amphion seakers? I recently found out about them, I know they are from Finland, but haven't hear them, and I can't find much information about them in internet, Argon1/5c/0 would be the set of amphions, the dealer said they are good, but i had to leave and didn't get a chance to hear them.
Those 3 speaker sets are in the same prince range here in Finland.

I hope somebody is still reading this post, what is your opinion?
a) 2 XTZ 1x12 subs + XTZ cinema 3 M6 for mains and 2 S5 for surrounds
b) 2 XTZ 1x12 subs + 2 Amphion argon 1s for mains , 2 argon 0s for surrounds and the center 5c
c) 2 SVS sb-2000 subs + Revel concerta2s, 2 M16s for mains, center C25, and S16s for surrounds

By the way, newbie here, my first post in audioholics ever! =)

Tervetuloa. For subs you really cant beat BK in european market for their value. If you want small footprint pair of XXLS400-DF will do it in your room. If you want to shake floor then get a pair of Monolith+. When buying a pair I believe Mareks can give you small discount if you contact them.

About amphion, I personally compared them with KEF R series and they fall far behind in same price range.

Edit: I was comparing Argon 3 to R500 as I noticed you are looking for bookself speakers, I personally have been really happy with the R500.

 

[Morquecho]

Hello
Thanks to everyone for your inputs.

Floor real state is not an issue.
I checked the BK webpage, and their subs, as you all mention, seem to be of great performance:value ratio in the UK. However, it seems like bringing them from UK to Finland is not so cheap, they ship only to UK and close by area for free. They didn't have a quote for Finland directly in their webpage, instead, they redirected me to a distributor (marek), that increases the price significantly, the monolith (which seems roughly comparable with the xtz 1x12) goes to €950, that's €270 of B&M commission which does not add any value, way too much commission in my opinion.

BK XXLS400 are €750, which is almost about the same as what the XTZ with the discount (those €700 per sub include shipping), and from those 2, I think the XTZs would be better option, because of what you suggested, flexibility of tunning either sealed or ported to adjust to the room, and also because I think is better a bit too much power than a bit too less, in case I move down the road to a bigger place and I find myself in need of that extra power.

I use at the moment an entry level Yamaha receiver, which only has one sub preout, but I am planning to get a miniDSP for bass management (will upgrade receiver at some point in the future).

So it seems like we have a winner, I'll order the XTZs and see how it goes

@tyhjaarpa , thanks for the input about the Amphions, I was already skeptical about them since their webpage has very little technical information, no frequency response graphs or anything.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Hello
Thanks to everyone for your inputs.

Floor real state is not an issue.
I checked the BK webpage, and their subs, as you all mention, seem to be of great performance:value ratio in the UK. However, it seems like bringing them from UK to Finland is not so cheap, they ship only to UK and close by area for free. They didn't have a quote for Finland directly in their webpage, instead, they redirected me to a distributor (marek), that increases the price significantly, the monolith (which seems roughly comparable with the xtz 1x12) goes to €950, that's €270 of B&M commission which does not add any value, way too much commission in my opinion.

BK XXLS400 are €750, which is almost about the same as what the XTZ with the discount (those €700 per sub include shipping), and from those 2, I think the XTZs would be better option, because of what you suggested, flexibility of tunning either sealed or ported to adjust to the room, and also because I think is better a bit too much power than a bit too less, in case I move down the road to a bigger place and I find myself in need of that extra power.

I use at the moment an entry level Yamaha receiver, which only has one sub preout, but I am planning to get a miniDSP for bass management (will upgrade receiver at some point in the future).

So it seems like we have a winner, I'll order the XTZs and see how it goes

@tyhjaarpa , thanks for the input about the Amphions, I was already skeptical about them since their webpage has very little technical information, no frequency response graphs or anything.

Shipping from UK would be around 50€, so yes, it will still leave around 200€ for the retailer, but I personally got discount for duals, but we are still talking about 150€ for the retailer each sub. Of course you have to take finnish taxes in consideration in this case as well, and they are high as you know. It is really a shame that BK doesn't sell directly to Finland as it does to other parts in europe. BK has better WAF than XTZ how ever and this was big factor for me and I also like DF configuration. One thing it adds is warranty from Mareks, so you would be dealing with finnish guys instead of BK guys in UK in case something goes wrong. Even at 750€ for XXLS400 and 950€ for Monolith+ they are still great value, better value than SVS in europe imo. For XTZ I can't say as I haven't found too much information about those subs, but they should do the job if you don't need the output of Monolith+.

 

[shadyJ]

Shipping from UK would be around 50€, so yes, it will still leave around 200€ for the retailer, but I personally got discount for duals, but we are still talking about 150€ for the retailer each sub. Of course you have to take finnish taxes in consideration in this case as well, and they are high as you know. It is really a shame that BK doesn't sell directly to Finland as it does to other parts in europe. BK has better WAF than XTZ how ever and this was big factor for me and I also like DF configuration. One thing it adds is warranty from Mareks, so you would be dealing with finnish guys instead of BK guys in UK in case something goes wrong. Even at 750€ for XXLS400 and 950€ for Monolith+ they are still great value, better value than SVS in europe imo. For XTZ I can't say as I haven't found too much information about those subs, but they should do the job if you don't need the output of Monolith+.

I think for the XTZ 1x12, you can expect about 1/3 of this sub, which is still pretty respectable performance. That 3x12 is pretty much just three stacked 1x12s. Same amplifiers, same driver, same enclosure volume. The only difference is the 1x12 may not be able to dig as deep since the overall larger cabinet volume of the 3x12 could more easily accommodate a deeper tuning point.

 

[rojo]

Apples to apples, Sub 1x12 vs SB2000, with the PB2000 added just for fun; CEA-2010 1m peak values:

............Sub 1x12.....SB2000.....PB2000
16Hz.....101.1 dB........n/a............n/a
20Hz.....108.6 dB.......101.1 dB.....112.8 dB
25Hz.....114.7 dB.......106.1 dB.....116.6 dB
31.5Hz..117.2 dB.......111.8 dB.....118.6 dB
40Hz.....122.7 dB.......117.3 dB.....119.1 dB
50Hz.....123.0 dB.......117.8 dB.....119.5 dB
63Hz.....122.1 dB.......118.2 dB.....120.5 dB

Well, maybe Golden Delicious to Honeycrisp, since the XTZ values were supplied by the manufacturer, as opposed to the SVS values coming from an independent reviewer. (Edit: converted RMS values to peak for Sub 1x12.)

 

[shadyJ]

Apples to apples, Sub 1x12 vs SB2000, with the PB2000 added just for fun; CEA-2010 1m peak values:

............Sub 1x12.....SB2000.....PB2000
16Hz.....101.1 dB........n/a............n/a
20Hz.....105.6 dB.......101.1 dB.....112.8 dB
25Hz.....111.7 dB.......106.1 dB.....116.6 dB
31.5Hz..116.2 dB.......111.8 dB.....118.6 dB
40Hz.....119.7 dB.......117.3 dB.....119.1 dB
50Hz.....120.0 dB.......117.8 dB.....119.5 dB
63Hz.....119.1 dB.......118.2 dB.....120.5 dB

Well, maybe Golden Delicious to Honeycrisp, since the XTZ values were supplied by the manufacturer, as opposed to the SVS values coming from an independent reviewer.

I don't see where XTZ is saying their measurements are peak or RMS. Their numbers do strike me as plausible for RMS; that is about what I would expect.

 

[rojo]

I don't see where XTZ is saying their measurements are peak or RMS. Their numbers do strike me as plausible for RMS; that is about what I would expect.

2m RMS anechoic values are often calculated from 1m peak values by subtracting 9dB, right? Given that XTZ supplied 2m ground plane values that are 6dB lower than the 1m values, and the 2m values are specified as 2π half-space radiation for a 3dB gain over anechoic, I'm inferring the 1m values are peak. Is this a dangerous assumption?

 

[Morquecho]

Yeah, taxes here make a big difference in price, I was looking to get dual Speedwoofer10s from RSL when I first started to check the subs, but the cost was way too high, shipping + taxes made the price more than half price more expensive.

You are right about the looks, XTZ's designed are not the most appealing looking, the subs are still ok, but the speakers with the grille off are not nice looking at all, they need the grille on.
Fortunately for me WAF is quite flexible, so 1x12 should do just fine.

I also checked the warranty, BK has 2 years overall, while XTZ has 2 years in electronics and 5 in the rest, would be dealing with Sweden if something goes wrong, but at least they seem to have good customer support, the answer promptly to emails and stuff, and 3 years more warranty in drivers sounds nice.

That 3x12 looks like it's really a monster, even Gene said "one of the most powerful subwoofers Audioholics has ever measured" in here:
http://www.audioholics.com/product-awards/2015-audioholics-productyear
So two 3rds of that power for dual 1x12 would be more than I can wish for, plus room gain should defintely make them go deep down in frequency

Thanks for the comparision @rojo , I'm still learning that stuff, so not so good yet in putting them all in the same terms, so thanks for taking the time

 

[shadyJ]

2m RMS anechoic values are often calculated from 1m peak values by subtracting 9dB, right? Given that XTZ supplied 2m ground plane values that are 6dB lower than the 1m values, and the 2m values are specified as 2π half-space radiation for a 3dB gain over anechoic, I'm inferring the 1m values are peak. Is this a dangerous assumption?

Yes, just subtract 9 dB from 1 m peak values to get 2 m RMS values: 6 dB for doubling distance and 3 dB for peak to RMS.

What throws me off is that the 2m measurements in their chart for the 3x12 is pretty spot on Ricci's measurements for the 3x12, except Ricci states his measurements in RMS. Since CEA-2010 specifies measurements to be shown by 1 m peak, I would normally assume that to be the case, unless stated otherwise. XTZ does not say otherwise, but it looks to me like RMS values for that subwoofer.

 

[rojo]

Yes, just subtract 9 dB from 1 m peak values to get 2 m RMS values: 6 dB for doubling distance and 3 dB for peak to RMS.

What throws me off is that the 2m measurements in their chart for the 3x12 is pretty spot on Ricci's measurements for the 3x12, except Ricci states his measurements in RMS. Since CEA-2010 specifies measurements to be shown by 1 m peak, I would normally assume that to be the case, unless stated otherwise. XTZ does not say otherwise, but it looks to me like RMS values for that subwoofer.

Should I pad the 1x12 values +3dB then? My confusion was in thinking Butterworth's data were representing anechoic values while XTZ illustrated ground plane. I was confusing CEA-2010 ratings with sensitivity ratings, which is silly and embarrassing in retrospect. This hobby gets complicated sometimes.

 

[shadyJ]

Should I pad the 1x12 values +3dB then? My confusion was in thinking Butterworth's data were representing anechoic values while XTZ illustrated ground plane. I was confusing CEA-2010 ratings with sensitivity ratings, which is silly and embarrassing in retrospect. This hobby gets complicated sometimes.

Anechoic testing is not done with subwoofers, so this is all ground plane (groundplane will give you the same response as anechoic for bass frequencies, but not the same sound pressure level). Brent Butterworth reports CEA-2010 results in both 1 m peak and 2 m RMS now, but originally he only did 1 m peak. To be honest I am not certain what you should pad the XTZ values by, since they don't say whether their measurements are reported as peak or RMS, but their results look like they were using 2 m RMS. One thing about RMS is it is not a part of the CEA-2010 protocol. It is just an informal convention used by some testers.