Power Ratings in Modern AVR's

[Halon451]

Agreed on all counts. Live person, as long as it's not the gatekeeper, is always the best. And I would also be amazed that a spade would come loose, but it did happen to me, and like you said, it probably wasn't a great connection in the first place. Also, since so much voice content is below the tweeter range, it might not be the tweeter. Have you listened closely to cymbals, and lead guitar stuff? Just typing out loud...
Hey, you should ask Ed if your 01's qualify for the upgrade program, lol!

Hah! Yeah I wouldn't argue if they wanted to just send me a full set of new Primes to replace my old S-series!

I should've clarified. Yes distortion most noticeable on those high freq effects. So s's in vocals, cymbal/hi-hat sounds, glass breaking, etc.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hah! Yeah I wouldn't argue if they wanted to just send me a full set of new Primes to replace my old S-series!

I should've clarified. Yes distortion most noticeable on those high freq effects. So s's in vocals, cymbal/hi-hat sounds, glass breaking, etc.

Ok cool. You maybe did clarify. I can tend to be muddy. Lol

 

[Halon451]

Ok cool. You maybe did clarify. I can tend to be muddy. Lol

Have you checked your spade connectors?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Lmao!

 

[KEW]

Some miscellaneous comments:

Phone vs email - I have experienced more than one company that, for whatever reason, provided good support through one method of communication, but was abysmal using the other. I have learned I am best served to "ping" a company using both email and phone and see which one gets the quicker/better response.

Power specifications - The key is to understand that the FTC method of specifying power has not changed in the past 4 decades (pretty sure that is true). Whether it should have changed is a different debate (I think it should have). The FTC requirement is for two channels (on any two or more channel amp) driven over a specified frequency range, at a specified level of THD, at a specified impedance, and evaluated as RMS Watts. This is a standard and in this sense, any claims that manufacturers are playing loose with these specs is very unlikely. Unfortunately, the standard does allow them to select the impedance and distortion they test at; which often prevents us from comparing apples to apples.
In today's world of 5, 7, or even 9 channels of amps in one box, manufacturers have been creative in how they state the power of there units, but if you dig, you should find the FTC standard specs which is teh best we have to work with.
PS - my first stereo was a ~1970 $60 Juliette Cassette Stereo System which provided 750 watts per channel (this is before the FTC spec was enacted). Looking back, it was obvious that instead of RMS watts, those watts were either JBF (Just Before Fire) watts aka IALS (Immediately After Lightening Strike) watts!

Damaged drivers - If you have any reason to believe a driver is not working properly, you should investigate that ASAP! Taking SVS and Marantz on wild goose chases seems like a waste of time... unless that is just what you do for fun (NTTAWWT)!

Shorted connections/terminals - Just as with the damaged drivers, give these a look over as soon as possible! Make sure there are no stray wires at your banana plug terminals. Also check the length of the speaker cable for any kinks etc. My brother went through three amps before he found out that his cat had used a claw to punch a hole through the speaker cable that gave an intermittent short (when turned up loud enough to "bridge" the short) the short showed up as distortion and over time the AVR would trip off sooner and sooner. That devious cat cleverly hid his handiwork such that the only way to detect it was to run your fingers over the cable and feel it! Last, I had a dostortion problem which turned out to be poor contact at an RCA terminal. The RCA cables were stiff and the way this one was twisted, the stiffness of the right channel cable was trying to pull the left channel connection out. It did - not enough to kill the sound, but enough to distort the heck out of it!

 

[KEW]

Another simple investigative test you can do is run all of your speakers full range (just by-pass sub for now). See how loud you can play before you hear distortion.
Now, cross the sub to all channels at 200Hz and see how loud it is when the distortion starts.
Full range is putting greater demands on the AVR's amp and if that is the problem, the amp should start falling on its face at a lower volume. If it starts at the same SPL as before, then it is a safe bet that it is the drivers which start to distort whenever you reach that level.
Please note that this is a "sloppy" test as it may render conclusive results if you detect obvious differences, but subtle differences will be inconclusive.

I am pretty convinced that something is wrong with the speakers or connection and that is what changed between now and your earlier system that did such a great job, but this is a real mystery and please let us know as you figure it out!

 

[mtrycrafts]

I noticed that from the product page but looking in the manual it's a little more cautious, with a footnote indicating its the FTC rule, so 2ch measurement....

LOL. The truth is out there. One must seek it.

 

[Halon451]

Some miscellaneous comments:

Phone vs email - I have experienced more than one company that, for whatever reason, provided good support through one method of communication, but was abysmal using the other. I have learned I am best served to "ping" a company using both email and phone and see which one gets the quicker/better response.

Power specifications - The key is to understand that the FTC method of specifying power has not changed in the past 4 decades (pretty sure that is true). Whether it should have changed is a different debate (I think it should have). The FTC requirement is for two channels (on any two or more channel amp) driven over a specified frequency range, at a specified level of THD, at a specified impedance, and evaluated as RMS Watts. This is a standard and in this sense, any claims that manufacturers are playing loose with these specs is very unlikely. Unfortunately, the standard does allow them to select the impedance and distortion they test at; which often prevents us from comparing apples to apples.
In today's world of 5, 7, or even 9 channels of amps in one box, manufacturers have been creative in how they state the power of there units, but if you dig, you should find the FTC standard specs which is teh best we have to work with.
PS - my first stereo was a ~1970 $60 Juliette Cassette Stereo System which provided 750 watts per channel (this is before the FTC spec was enacted). Looking back, it was obvious that instead of RMS watts, those watts were either JBF (Just Before Fire) watts aka IALS (Immediately After Lightening Strike) watts!

Damaged drivers - If you have any reason to believe a driver is not working properly, you should investigate that ASAP! Taking SVS and Marantz on wild goose chases seems like a waste of time... unless that is just what you do for fun (NTTAWWT)!

Shorted connections/terminals - Just as with the damaged drivers, give these a look over as soon as possible! Make sure there are no stray wires at your banana plug terminals. Also check the length of the speaker cable for any kinks etc. My brother went through three amps before he found out that his cat had used a claw to punch a hole through the speaker cable that gave an intermittent short (when turned up loud enough to "bridge" the short) the short showed up as distortion and over time the AVR would trip off sooner and sooner. That devious cat cleverly hid his handiwork such that the only way to detect it was to run your fingers over the cable and feel it! Last, I had a dostortion problem which turned out to be poor contact at an RCA terminal. The RCA cables were stiff and the way this one was twisted, the stiffness of the right channel cable was trying to pull the left channel connection out. It did - not enough to kill the sound, but enough to distort the heck out of it!

Good points made here. I'm not really trying to lead either SVS or Marantz on a wild goose chase, I just feel I've exhausted most of my solutions at this point short of doing the basic wiring checks and tweeter swap, which I intend to do tonight. I would be utterly relieved to find that it was just a wayward connection that I can fix in about one minute and move on from all this! Even a bad tweeter would make me happy, cause then I can at least just re-appropriate the identical one from one of the surrounds, call up SVS and order a new one. I'll at least restore my center channel sound until it arrives. I have to, however, anticipate that I may not be that lucky and hold other, more drastic options in reserve, such as taking it back altogether and trying a different AVR. I don't have any cats and my speaker wires run pretty smooth; I've been back behind there often enough lately to ensure they are free of said kinks or twists. A bad connection inside a banana plug obviously would not be visible, which is why I intend to take the plugs out of the equation altogether and just connect them via newly stripped bare wire. They also have a good bend radius and nothing is getting jammed up against a wall or anything when I push the console back. Only RCA connection I use is for the subwoofer output.

As for power ratings - a lot of my confusion in my OP has been resolved. I better understand the ratings and at least the differences in how they're represented. I still don't understand why they list a rating at 10% THD, other than maybe to showcase the limit at which point the amp will either blow your speakers out completely or shut off. But then again it was someone, maybe you Kurt who said bigger power numbers sells more! I'd bet the average consumer has no idea what THD even is or why it's important. That's why I come here to ask questions instead of going to my friends.

 

[Halon451]

Another simple investigative test you can do is run all of your speakers full range (just by-pass sub for now). See how loud you can play before you hear distortion.
Now, cross the sub to all channels at 200Hz and see how loud it is when the distortion starts.
Full range is putting greater demands on the AVR's amp and if that is the problem, the amp should start falling on its face at a lower volume. If it starts at the same SPL as before, then it is a safe bet that it is the drivers which start to distort whenever you reach that level.
Please note that this is a "sloppy" test as it may render conclusive results if you detect obvious differences, but subtle differences will be inconclusive.

I am pretty convinced that something is wrong with the speakers or connection and that is what changed between now and your earlier system that did such a great job, but this is a real mystery and please let us know as you figure it out!

Mystery indeed. I may try that too if I have time. It could be that I've simply stumbled on on inherent weakness in the newly christened Marantz SR6011 that hasn't hit the airwaves quite yet. If that's the case, then you heard it here first folks!!

 

[Halon451]

At least the back of my entertainment console has never been cleaner and more free of dust and dog hair lol. I have a hand vac in hand every time I pull that sucker out away from the wall.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Just as with the damaged drivers, give these a look over as soon as possible! Make sure there are no stray wires at your banana plug terminals.

Another check to make is to make sure every speaker connection has the proper phase, meaning that on every amp connection and every speaker connection it should be negative to negative and positive to positive. A few years ago a friend was complaining of weak deep bass, and I found he was bi-wiring, and had the woofers accidentally wired out of phase. I was a hero with just a connection flip.

 

[M Code]

Power specifications - The key is to understand that the FTC method of specifying power has not changed in the past 4 decades (pretty sure that is true). Whether it should have changed is a different debate (I think it should have). The FTC requirement is for two channels (on any two or more channel amp) driven over a specified frequency range, at a specified level of THD, at a specified impedance, and evaluated as RMS Watts. This is a standard and in this sense, any claims that manufacturers are playing loose with these specs is very unlikely. Unfortunately, the standard does allow them to select the impedance and distortion they test at; which often prevents us from comparing apples to apples.
In today's world of 5, 7, or even 9 channels of amps in one box, manufacturers have been creative in how they state the power of there units, but if you dig, you should find the FTC standard specs which is teh best we have to work with.
PS - my first stereo was a ~1970 $60 Juliette Cassette Stereo System which provided 750 watts per channel (this is before the FTC spec was enacted). Looking back, it was obvious that instead of RMS watts, those watts were either JBF (Just Before Fire) watts aka IALS (Immediately After Lightening Strike) watts!

This needs clarification..
In 1973 the FTC did release their amplifier disclosure statue. Basically specifed the amplifier must be run & preconditioned for 1 hour @ 1/3 rated power, THD and load impedance. Then measurements were taken for Power, THD, Bandwidth & Load impedance for 5 minutes if the bandwidth was 20Hz-20kHz measurements were taken @ 20Hz, 1kHz and 20kHz, both channels driven. Certain brands only disclosed power, THD @ 1kHz so that became the bandwidth.

In the mid-70s everything was stereo, 2-channel. But then as surround sound and multi-channel products were launched the law was relaxed and the FTC no longer pursued any enforcement. In fact back then the only brand being trueful about power output was Marantz, who relaesed their incredible 2500 (250W x 2) and 2600 (300W x 2) receivers with scopes which today sell for >$5K.. Pioneer attempted to challengel them with their SX-1250 but the 1250 failed the FTC preconditioning, Pioneer continued to advertise it the most powerful receiver until they were sued by Marantz and they pulled the 1250 ads.

Fast forward to the 90s, next as the AVR market got more competitive prices, another power spec game was started.. EIA(trade association) later to become the CEA stepped in and produced their 590 standard. Basically their technical standards committee made up of representatives from Sony, Panasonic, Bose.. rewrote the standards..
Measure power output for 1 channel driven @ full power, while the other 6 channels are driven @ 1/8 power. Since most AVRs were 7.1 the brand basically used 2 channel power in their disclosure. (1 channel full power & 6 channels @ 1/8 power= 1 3/4 channels so they started stating specs as stereo.

Today the remaining established audio brands are respectful but others are outright liars. For example, the Pyle brand sells their PT3300 amplifier (3000 watts) for $112.... Total BS and misleading but without any monitoring or prosecution they get away with their bogus cliams.

https://www.amazon.com/Pyle-PT3300-3000-Watt-Power-Amplifier/dp/B0010K8IM6

Stay with the established brands, their specs are generally are more honest. However note thet sometimes they include the din disclosure from their euro models/versions which are significantly higher..

Just my $0.02...

 

[Halon451]

Another check to make is to make sure every speaker connection has the proper phase, meaning that on every amp connection and every speaker connection it should be negative to negative and positive to positive. A few years ago a friend was complaining of weak deep bass, and I found he was bi-wiring, and had the woofers accidentally wired out of phase. I was a hero with just a connection flip.

I double checked all those early on, plus Audyssey may have likely flagged a polarity reversal during any of the several calibrations I ran with it.

 

[M Code]

Hah! Yeah I wouldn't argue if they wanted to just send me a full set of new Primes to replace my old S-series!

I should've clarified. Yes distortion most noticeable on those high freq effects. So s's in vocals, cymbal/hi-hat sounds, glass breaking, etc.

What happens if U turn off Audyssey??
Does the distortion go away?
We have found in certain instances Audyssey can cause distortion....
Before condemning the AVR or loudspeaker, try that..

Just my $0.02...

 

[Halon451]

This needs clarification..
In 1973 the FTC did release their amplifier disclosure statue. Basically specifed the amplifier must be run & preconditioned for 1 hour @ 1/3 rated power, THD and load impedance. Then measurements were taken for Power, THD, Bandwidth & Load impedance for 5 minutes if the bandwidth was 20Hz-20kHz measurements were taken @ 20Hz, 1kHz and 20kHz, both channels driven. Certain brands only disclosed power, THD @ 1kHz so that became the bandwidth.

In the mid-70s everything was stereo, 2-channel. But then as surround sound and multi-channel products were launched the law was relaxed and the FTC no longer pursued any enforcement. In fact back then the only brand being trueful about power output was Marantz, who relaesed their incredible 2500 (250W x 2) and 2600 (300W x 2) receivers with scopes which today sell for >$5K.. Pioneer attempted to challengel them with their SX-1250 but the 1250 failed the FTC preconditioning, Pioneer continued to advertise it the most powerful receiver until they were sued by Marantz and they pulled the 1250 ads.

Fast forward to the 90s, next as the AVR market got more competitive prices, another power spec game was started.. EIA(trade association) later to become the CEA stepped in and produced their 590 standard. Basically their technical standards committee made up of representatives from Sony, Panasonic, Bose.. rewrote the standards..
Measure power output for 1 channel driven @ full power, while the other 6 channels are driven @ 1/8 power. Since most AVRs were 7.1 the brand basically used 2 channel power in their disclosure. (1 channel full power & 6 channels @ 1/8 power= 1 3/4 channels so they started stating specs as stereo.

Today the remaining established audio brands are respectful but others are outright liars. For example, the Pyle brand sells their PT3300 amplifier (3000 watts) for $112.... Total BS and misleading but without any monitoring or prosecution they get away with their bogus cliams.

https://www.amazon.com/Pyle-PT3300-3000-Watt-Power-Amplifier/dp/B0010K8IM6

Stay with the established brands, their specs are generally are more honest. However note thet sometimes they include the din disclosure from their euro models/versions which are significantly higher..

Just my $0.02...

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing this.

 

[Halon451]

What happens if U turn off Audyssey??
Does the distortion go away?
We have found in certain instances Audyssey can cause distortion....
Before condemning the AVR or loudspeaker, try that..

Just my $0.02...

Yes sir. Have run it in all modes, Audyssey on, off, flat, bypass, pure direct.

*Edit: Also, Cinema EQ on and off, Dynamic Volume, Dynamic EQ both on and off, various surround modes, you name it.

 

[Halon451]

However, due to my room challenges and speaker limitations, those other modes don't sound so great at all. It's much improvement with it on, so even if it was Audyssey fouling things up I'd still be in a pickle, having to choose between good but distorted sound or distortion-free bad sound. It's unfortunate it doesn't give you any ability to adjust EQ with Audyssey on.. it decides what's best and that's that.

 

[KEW]

This needs clarification.

Thanks M Code, always nice to see you chime in ... especially regarding industry history/practices/trends!

I knew I had some uncertainty in what I was saying, but had no idea how full of crap I was, LOL!
Thanks for the corrections!

 

[Verdinut]

However, due to my room challenges and speaker limitations, those other modes don't sound so great at all. It's much improvement with it on, so even if it was Audyssey fouling things up I'd still be in a pickle, having to choose between good but distorted sound or distortion-free bad sound. It's unfortunate it doesn't give you any ability to adjust EQ with Audyssey on.. it decides what's best and that's that.

I suspect that the power rating of your receiver is too low. When Audyssey boosts some frequencies, let's say 10 dB, the power amp has to output 10 times more power and it may go into a clipping state.
I doubt that distortion would be caused in the Audyssey software. It most likely is caused by an overloaded amplifier (overloaded by Audyssey however) .
If your receiver has pre-outs, and you have access to external power amps, it might be worthwhile to try this avenue and compare the results.

With the SR6011, you can let Audyssey off and adjust EQ manually. With my SR5010, I can do it and doubt that you shouldn't be able to. Did you read all your manual? I know it's 300 pages but it's very useful.

 

[PENG]

I suspect that the power rating of your receiver is too low. When Audyssey boosts some frequencies, let's say 10 dB, the power amp has to output 10 times more power and it may go into a clipping state.
I doubt that distortion would be caused by the Audyssey software. It most likely is caused by an overloaded amplifier.
If your receiver has pre-outs, and you have access to external power amps, it might be worthwhile to try this avenue and compare the results.

Audyssey is smart enough to limit any such boost to just a few db, not 10. It also doesn't do much above 200 hz.

Besides, Halon is getting the breakup even in pure direct. I think the speaker is the culprit. Don't forget he had no such trouble with the Pio that was even slightly less powerful.