Power Ratings in Modern AVR's

[lovinthehd]

In another thread your center is back from the edge of the table, have you tried bringing it forward to avoid reflections off the table to see if that would help?

 

[Halon451]

In another thread your center is back from the edge of the table, have you tried bringing it forward to avoid reflections off the table to see if that would help?

Yes sir. Did that two Audyssey runs ago and it definitely helped smooth out the bit of harshness but not the issue of distortion I'm experiencing.

 

[PENG]

I even played a much more tame flick. A comedy in fact. There were scenes where one of the characters would yell or holler and very noticeable breaking up. And this was at a much more modest volume, maybe 65-70 db on the SPL meter.

If the center speaker sounded like that at 65-70 dB SPL then that may be the problem, that something went defective, most likely just the tweeter. Also, if you were getting 80-85 dB average when watching movies, that's very loud but then your SR6011 should have no trouble doing the job in that room and provide the needed dynamic head room. I mean, we are no guessing any more.

 

[Halon451]

So I've had some time to just sit back and think on all this. Bracketing out any weird issues going on with my tweeters or mid-range drivers, the speakers I'm using aren't the problem. It doesn't make logical sense. Though yes, they can be a difficult load for lower end AVR's, it doesn't make sense that they should be struggling with anything at the $1k price point and above. Last night I proved with my SPL meter and a fairly tame movie soundtrack that I'm experiencing distortion even at low to moderate volume levels and not much surround sound content being driven. Several years ago, when I had even less money to spend on HT gear than I do now, I did a LOT of research on these. I had already read the links PENG posted and many more, and was convinced this was the speaker system for me. I was not let down. They have been one of the finest additions to my setup and have run close to flawlessly for nearly 9 years. They definitely have some inherent weaknesses in terms of FR, but nothing that a good calibration and adequate sub can't compensate for. For my room size, they have actually been perfect.

PENG, if you're still following this thread - I could not locate Ed Mullen's direct email address - any way you could PM that to me please? SVS website only has a general email form; alternately I've always gotten great support by just calling them up, but not sure I'd be able to get in touch with Ed directly that way. I don't necessarily fault the speakers, but I would still like to speak with him to see if he can shed some light on what I'm using to power these satellites and what I may need to focus on to restore the system back to its previous glory. He may also be able to evaluate whether or not it is in fact a tweeter issue or something.

So we have explored the many facets of AVR power ratings, how they are presented, explored and compared THD graphs for multiple receivers and equated power output and capability between my old Pioneer which drove those speakers quite well, to my new Marantz, which seems to be struggling for whatever reason we can't yet pin down. On paper, taking an objective approach, the Marantz does appear to be superior to the old Pioneer, so I'm a bit baffled on why I'm experiencing these issues. Power ratings are all over the map, and include some specs that are impossible to even achieve in the real world without damaging speakers - this has been problematic in making comparisons. Yet the bench test comparisons have yielded a pretty solid guideline to follow.

My gut instinct at this point is to try and restore as similar a lineup as possible to the one I had before, which would entail me taking the Marantz back and getting the Pioneer Elite SC-LX701. However, as has been discussed; the inclusion of the Class D amplification in that model may not allow for an accurately equivalent but upgraded solution. I honestly don't know what the real difference would be in terms of A/B vs. Class D, other than I know Class D is much more efficient. There's absolutely no guarantee the Pioneer, or even the Yamaha I mentioned would yield any better results until I actually tried them out in my setup.

One last silly thing I may try is to check the integrity of my connections. With all the moving of stuff around, it's maybe possible a connection became loose. I use banana plugs on the back of the AVR for the LCR channels, and they are that type that are fairly difficult to attach to 12 gauge wire. I don't suspect this is the root of my problem, but it will at least eliminate one more possibility. I may just take the bananas off, strip a new section of fresh bare copper and attach them directly to the posts. I only use banana plugs because they're much easier to connect/disconnect than trying to screw in the bare wire.

So. While I'm still within my return window for the Marantz, as much of a pain in the ass as it is, I may very well just bite the bullet and take it in for an exchange; first to try out the Pioneer, then failing that, the Yamaha. In that order. If the problem persists after that, then clearly my speakers have fallen off and may just not be performing quite as well as they used to. I have always planned to upgrade them eventually, that would just give me that much more reason to make it happen as quickly as HT funds will allow.

To me, considering all that has been talked about, discussed, evaluated - this makes the most logical sense at this point. Does this seem like a sensible approach?

 

[PENG]

Yes I am still following this thread because I am curious to know what went wrong with your system. As you know I am a believable of those SVS speakers and while I agree with TLS Guy in principle, I disagree to his take on your speakers. The SBS-01 (M) may be classified as satellite speakers, but with 2X5.25" woofers, they are practically good size bookshelf speakers.

Now back to your latest reported issues, that is, breaking up at spl as low as 65-70 dB, that is not normal for sure. You have been saying you are happy with the L/R, so it is quite possible that your center speaker has gone bad.

I don't have Mr. Mullen's direct email, but when I emailed SVS customer service I specifically asked for him to address my questions and he did almost every time. There is no harm trying to get him on the phone either.

 

[Halon451]

Yes I am still following this thread because I am curious to know what went wrong with your system. As you know I am a believable of those SVS speakers and while I agree with TLS Guy in principle, I disagree to his take on your speakers. The SBS-01 (M) may be classified as satellite speakers, but with 2X5.25" woofers, they are practically good size bookshelf speakers.

Now back to your latest reported issues, that is, breaking up at spl as low as 65-70 dB, that is not normal for sure. You have been saying you are happy with the L/R, so it is quite possible that your center speaker has gone bad.

I don't have Mr. Mullen's direct email, but when I emailed SVS customer service I specifically asked for him to address my questions and he did almost every time. There is no harm trying to get him on the phone either.

TLS Guy is certainly entitled to his evaluation and I appreciate his feedback. I also get the impression that he has a lot of experience with very high end speakers and of course his transmission line variety, so his view is likely biased against some mid-level product such as the SVS S-series. And it's fair, there's no way these would stack up to the types of speakers I'm sure he is more accustomed to. But for me, with my limited budget, small room size and other constraints, these have served me quite well. Exceeded my expectations in fact.

Before I go taking anything back I will get in touch with Ed, verify my connections and maybe swap out that tweeter like I had mentioned. I do all this, and I'm still having problems, that Marantz is going back, bottom line. I literally will not know what else I can do but that.

 

[PENG]

TLS Guy is certainly entitled to his evaluation and I appreciate his feedback. I also get the impression that he has a lot of experience with very high end speakers and of course his transmission line variety, so his view is likely biased against some mid-level product such as the SVS S-series. And it's fair, there's no way these would stack up to the types of speakers I'm sure he is more accustomed to. But for me, with my limited budget, small room size and other constraints, these have served me quite well. Exceeded my expectations in fact.

Before I go taking anything back I will get in touch with Ed, verify my connections and maybe swap out that tweeter like I had mentioned. I do all this, and I'm still having problems, that Marantz is going back, bottom line. I literally will not know what else I can do but that.

Sound like a good plan.

 

[Halon451]

Alright, I just emailed SVS and put ATTN: Ed Mullen in the subject line. Gave him the rundown, things I've tried, things I still intend to try and as much detail as I could on both the old and new AVR, along with my rudimentary measurements last night and observations on the distortion I'm hearing. All without trying to write a novel, lol. I'll let you know what he says when he responds.

 

[Halon451]

My letter to Ed:

Good morning sir,

I currently own the older S-series 5.1 system with a PB-12NSD sub. Speakers are SCS-01(M)'s for Mains, SCS-01 center, and SBS-01 (x2) for surrounds. Following a recent 4k upgrade which ultimately led me to replacing my old trusted Pioneer Elite (VSX-23TXH) with a newer Marantz (SR-6011) receiver for 4k pass-through I have had issues restoring the superb sound of these speakers in my system.

I am an active member on an A/V forum (Audioholics) and a previous customer of SVS's products. I have been very active lately trying to pinpoint the root cause of these issues and one member suggested I reach out to you directly. I should note that these speakers have performed almost flawlessly for the 9 or so years I've had them, running off the old Pioneer, they have given me truly wonderful, dynamic sound paired with that sub, with no issues, other than a recent failed 5.25" driver which I had replaced a few weeks ago after contacting SVS.

The issue I'm having is that I can't seem to restore the dynamics I had with my old system, higher frequency sounds from the center sound highly compressed and distorted and even running the Marantz's Audyssey calibration tool multiple times have yielded some improvements in the overall frequency response in-room, but have not fixed this issue. I've ensured the signal path is sending uncompressed PCM audio to the AVR without any special "add-ons" switched on, other than the room correction filters from the calibration.

I suspected maybe the new Marantz just wasn't as powerful as the old Pioneer, yet bench test data on each reveals the opposite. Both are "loosely" rated at 110w per channel, but THD measurements performed by Sound & Vision show the Marantz having a bit more headroom, so it doesn't make sense why these speakers are now under-performing in 5.1 when they absolutely dazzled me before the AVR upgrade. In 2.1 stereo mode, music sounds superb, the L and R speakers regaining the strength and clarity I know they are capable of.

However for HT use, the system sounds weak. I still suspect that it may be a power-issue, and given the fact that the only thing that has really changed in my setup to affect the sound quality is the AVR, my gut instinct points me there.

With the distortion coming in on the center channel (even at low to moderate volume levels without the soundtrack pushing the other four channels very hard at all), I've suspected that maybe its silk-dome tweeter may be going bad... seeing as how I did just have to replace a driver in one of the SCS-01's, given their age and the fact I've at times pushed them pretty hard for action movies.. it's possible. I planned to swap out the center tweeter with one from one of the surrounds which have been subject to far fewer demands over the years and see if that distortion issue goes away.

Failing that, the only other thing I can suspect is that the AVR, despite its superiority on paper and from lab tests, just isn't driving these speakers very well at all. Do you have any insight on this, and what is truly best for these speakers?

I am still within my return window for the AVR, so I was considering swapping it out with either the Pioneer Elite SC-LX701 or the Yamaha RX-A2060, both of which are one tier up from both the Marantz SR-6011 and my old Pioneer, both provide more power per channel, and overall just seem like much more robust AVR's. Not quite sure on Pioneer's choice to go with Class D amplification in their newer Elites, but that's a different discussion.

Anyway, I appreciate any insight or feedback you can offer. If you suspect that yes, maybe it's a tweeter issue, or maybe you even know of similar issues with Marantz and SVS speaker pairings. Or can suggest the specs I need to really focus on if I decide to take the Marantz back in order to restore these speakers back to their previous glory.

I do plan to upgrade to either the Prime or Ultra 5.1 system at some point, when cash allows, but that will be some time. I just want to get these old S-series speakers singing as loudly and clearly as I have always known them to sound.

Thank you in advance sir, and have a great day!

Rob
Loyal SVS Customer

 

[Halon451]

^^ Hopefully that more or less covers most of what we've discussed in this now, 7-page long thread.. lol

 

[PENG]

Very well written, but you may want to tell him your room dimensions and sitting distance. As you know, how much power one needs depend a lot on those two factors. If you room is like 15X25X10 and sit 15 ft away you will need 400 to 500W per channel amp and run it from a 20A circuit lol..

 

[Halon451]

Very well written, but you may want to tell him your room dimensions and sitting distance. As you know, how much power one needs depend a lot on those two factors. If you room is like 15X25X10 and sit 15 ft away you will need 400 to 500W per channel amp and run it from a 20A circuit lol..

Ah dammit, good point. I meant to include that, but I got to where I felt the email was already getting too long and wrapped it up, completely forgetting to mention distance/room size. I guess he can probably deduce that the room size and distance is probably not a concern given that they've sounded spectacular for years with my old system. Hopefully. I did indicate that nothing else has changed except for replacing the AVR, at least in terms of the audio in my new 4k setup.

 

[Halon451]

If and when he responds, he may ask the question and I will let him know that info. He may give me some insight on the tweeter going bad, possibly suggest replacing it, but if he points at the Marantz, that puppy is done. She'll be sitting on a returns rack in Best Buy quicker than you can say "Pioneer!"

 

[PENG]

Ah dammit, good point. I meant to include that, but I got to where I felt the email was already getting too long and wrapped it up, completely forgetting to mention distance/room size. I guess he can probably deduce that the room size and distance is probably not a concern given that they've sounded spectacular for years with my old system. Hopefully. I did indicate that nothing else has changed except for replacing the AVR, at least in terms of the audio in my new 4k setup.

Very true, you can't suddenly need more power just because you changed the TV regardless of anything else lol..

 

[Halon451]

I've gained a lot of knowledge from this thread and I sincerely appreciate all the input and feedback. I'm very much a "set it and forget it" kind of guy when it comes to this stuff. And when I got it set way back when and had it sounded spectacular I did in fact "forget it." I don't like constantly tweaking, I just want to enjoy my system for its intended use. So as such, many years later I almost feel like a newbie coming back into all this and essentially starting from scratch again with all new gear.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Since you're in test mode anyway, and use banana plugs. Just to hear it more accurately I'd unplug every speaker except the center and watch a movie with lots of dialogue. Put your ear right up close to the speaker and try to determine if it is the tweeter for sure. Since you already replaced a mid, it could be that those mids are just susceptible to failure. Also open that speaker up and check the connections inside. I had (ironically on an svs) a sub that suddenly started a crackling sound at moderate volumes. I pulled the driver and found the female spade connector was off, but still resting on the terminal, just enough to make sound. This was a huge relief and I got lucky. Maybe something to do while you're waiting for Ed, who is great by the way.

 

[Halon451]

Yeah, I can do that for sure. It seems unlikely that an internal connection would have just come loose like that though, these speakers for the most part have barely moved an inch the entire time I've had them set up. And spade connectors don't just magically back themselves off of a driver unless the connection was poor enough to begin with that vibrations possibly rattled it loose. Nonetheless it's an easy check so I will do it to rule it out. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Halon451]

Incidentally I just contacted Marantz customer service tech support, but I'm at work so I have to call them back this afternoon when I get home so they can walk me through some troubleshooting steps. Just figured I'll at least follow that path as well to see if it's just some kind of goofy setting within the AVR that I've missed, but doubtful at this point. I've become very familiar with the many options on it and believe I have it set to output the cleanest sound possible; btw, this distortion issue does happen on all modes, Audyssey on, Flat, L/R bypass, Audyssey off. With my room size I'm honestly unable to tell much of a sonic difference between Audyssey on and Flat, so I've just left it set to Audyssey.

At any rate, I've always defaulted to the simple approach that a phone call works much better than an email when it comes to these things. As long as you can get a live person on the line it typically yields far greater returns and help. Within just a couple of prompts I was able to get that live person so that's at least a good sign. They seemed happy to help, but can only do so much unless I'm sitting there with the AVR to put it through the troubleshooting steps.

 

[Halon451]

Those settings shouldn't really matter with the issue I'm having anyway - they only change the tonal quality of the sound, which have more or less been dialed in through repeated Audyssey runs. I could switch between every "sound mode" available on the old Pioneer and though many didn't sound all that great, none of them caused any kind of distortion like what I'm experiencing.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Agreed on all counts. Live person, as long as it's not the gatekeeper, is always the best. And I would also be amazed that a spade would come loose, but it did happen to me, and like you said, it probably wasn't a great connection in the first place. Also, since so much voice content is below the tweeter range, it might not be the tweeter. Have you listened closely to cymbals, and lead guitar stuff? Just typing out loud...
Hey, you should ask Ed if your 01's qualify for the upgrade program, lol!