The Dolby Atmos Home Theater Paradox

[Auditor55]

And lest we forget that the new over the air broadcast standard spec allows for the transmission of metadata, not only for video but immersive audio as well.

Yeah that same OTA that still broadcasting in 1080i, not even 1080P.

 

[Cos]

Atmos is all but dead as far as mass acceptance. At best its niche. Not very many people going out there buying all them speakers and putting them on the ceilings and whatnot for Atmos. Also VUDU is a second rate streaming service, they don't move the needle, they're not a game changer for Atmos.

Technology wise, VUDU is the leading streaming service,

• It's not a subscription service like Prime/Hulu/Netflix so comparing apples to oranges
• First to adopt 3D, 4K streaming
• First to add (5.1/7.1)DD+ Audio (less compressed)
• It's great that I can have a digital copy of my blu-ray discs so I can watch on a plane.
• Only streaming service with ultraviolet support digital copy of discs
• It was the first to have a player that let you download movies and watch offline.
• I never have issues with streaming service

In relation to streaming technology, nothing is second rate, so again, I will agree to disagree with your opinion.

Due to the superior audio quality DD+ and 7.1(Atmos aside) I will rent a movie from VUDU over Prime or any other streaming service.

As for mass acceptance, I don't disagree with you there, in fact there are probably a lot more "mass acceptance" from people that have Soundbars than 5.1/7.1 systems. My point is that it is not dead, no matter how much you may try to think otherwise. It is niche, I agree with you, but the bottom line I have tried to point out from the beginning, is that it does enhance sound in my HT if properly set up.

I don't even advise people to tear up their walls just to have it, in my case my basement was a complete teardown to the studs, so I experimented with it because I had the right conditions.

I will be happy to eat my words with a side of fries if I turn out to be a wrong after a year, but I don't think that will be the case.

 

[Auditor55]

Technology wise, VUDU is the leading streaming service,

• It's not a subscription service like Prime/Hulu/Netflix so comparing apples to oranges
• First to adopt 3D, 4K streaming
• First to add (5.1/7.1)DD+ Audio (less compressed)
• It's great that I can have a digital copy of my blu-ray discs so I can watch on a plane.
• Only streaming service with ultraviolet support digital copy of discs
• It was the first to have a player that let you download movies and watch offline.
• I never have issues with streaming service

In relation to streaming technology, nothing is second rate, so again, I will agree to disagree with your opinion.

Due to the superior audio quality DD+ and 7.1(Atmos aside) I will rent a movie from VUDU over Prime or any other streaming service.

As for mass acceptance, I don't disagree with you there, in fact there are probably a lot more "mass acceptance" from people that have Soundbars than 5.1/7.1 systems. My point is that it is not dead, no matter how much you may try to think otherwise. It is niche, I agree with you, but the bottom line I have tried to point out from the beginning, is that it does enhance sound in my HT if properly set up.

I don't even advise people to tear up their walls just to have it, in my case my basement was a complete teardown to the studs, so I experimented with it because I had the right conditions.

I will be happy to eat my words with a side of fries if I turn out to be a wrong after a year, but I don't think that will be the case.

That's all I'm saying. It's about mass acceptance and adoption. I don't care howsuperior something is, if it doesn't have market acceptance and adoption it's not a game changer. Dolby Atmos with VUDU is not a factor, it hardly moves the needle. You, people like us, that join forums like this, which is the ultra niche, think because we jump into every new fangled a/v tech that rest of the buying public, but it's just not true. For example, remember SA-CD and DVD-A, that was superior to MP3. However those superior audio formats failed miserably in the market, save for the ultra niche. Which we have Dolby Atmos today and also DTS-X. It's funny, people hardly discuss DTS-X.

 

[Cos]

Again, I will disagree VUDU with Dolby Atmos does show a greater acceptance/support of the format, to totally discount that is just plain ignorant in my opinion. Is it a game changer, no, does it show it's growing in support, yes. VUDU has a very large user base and market share. It's definitely not the Tidal of Movie streaming services. Those VUDU movie codes that everyone buys helps keep its user base pretty significant.

Your keep on pointing out that it's dead, I am pointing out it's not dead. It's not all or nothing, that was the only thing I was pointing out. It has support, support is growing, I don't see it every taking off fully mainstream, but I don't think it is going away.

 

[BlwnAway]

We will have to see whether or not it will be a flash in the pan, only time will tell. My arguments is that it will never be widely adopted and will remain in the niche segment of the market. Dolby Atmos requires a general upgrade of hardware, i.e. new A/V receiver and some new speakers, that will require additional wiring of the room/home. Let's face it, Dolby Atmos is really for those with dedicated HT rooms, which I suspect is a niche segment in itself.

Sorry but I disagree, (even taking the quality of the overall experience out of the equation) while the mainstream may not run out and buy new AVR's to get Immersive Audio, it is and will be built in to any 7+ channel unit that you buy from here on out, you don't have to look for it, it's just there. This in itself will get the general purchaser curios about it.
As far as "all those speakers" it's only +2 or +4 for the enthusiast and modules or upfiring speakers for the rest, which means almost no extra wiring for them as well. And many people who aren't enthusiasts usually don't just upgrade receivers, they buy entire packages (again, since they're not enthusiasts, they don't upgrade for the sake of upgrading, and they're more likely to think that if ones component is no good anymore, then they all need to be replaced)
Plus, this year we're seeing the first batch of Atmos SoundBars as well.

And that doesn't even take into consideration the New enthusiasts who have homes with pseudo theatres that incorporate all in-ceiling speakers and how easy it is to upgrade their quality of sound overall by buying better main speakers and incorporating their already installed in-ceiling speakers as their overhead Atmos speakers.

Sorry, there's just no way is dead or dying with all of that going for it, the mainstream alternatives to getting Atmos, while not the best for quality, are everywhere.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Your keep on pointing out that it's dead, I am pointing out it's not dead. It's not all or nothing, that was the only thing I was pointing out. It has support, support is growing, I don't see it every taking off fully mainstream, but I don't think it is going away.

You are right. No it won't be mainstream, but it's also not leaving either. I'm not even 5.1 is mainstream yet. Lol. The problem with this thread is, since it's too much work, and too unwieldy, and maybe unsightly, and some people are lazy, they have to poo poo on everybody else's parade. Atmos in home, properly implemented is amazing. It's an upgrade in every way, and somehow, even 7.1 bed tracks are better on non atmos systems. I can't put in in my current listening area, but I sure am gonna keep cheering on those who want to go for it.

 

[Auditor55]

Again, I will disagree VUDU with Dolby Atmos does show a greater acceptance/support of the format, to totally discount that is just plain ignorant in my opinion. Is it a game changer, no, does it show it's growing in support, yes. VUDU has a very large user base and market share. It's definitely not the Tidal of Movie streaming services. Those VUDU movie codes that everyone buys helps keep its user base pretty significant.

Your keep on pointing out that it's dead, I am pointing out it's not dead. It's not all or nothing, that was the only thing I was pointing out. It has support, support is growing, I don't see it every taking off fully mainstream, but I don't think it is going away.

I'm not going to say it's dead, it's "ultra niche", that's why it's really not a factor, most people don't care about save for that segment of the market which is infinitesimal

 

[Auditor55]

You are right. No it won't be mainstream, but it's also not leaving either. I'm not even 5.1 is mainstream yet. Lol. The problem with this thread is, since it's too much work, and too unwieldy, and maybe unsightly, and some people are lazy, they have to poo poo on everybody else's parade. Atmos in home, properly implemented is amazing. It's an upgrade in every way, and somehow, even 7.1 bed tracks are better on non atmos systems. I can't put in in my current listening area, but I sure am gonna keep cheering on those who want to go for it.

Most people that have Dolby Atmos equipped receivers are probably not even set up for Dolby Atmos.

Not trying rain on anyone's parade, did not say it wasn't a good surround sound technology, I just believe it's overkill. A small room really doesn't need more than five speakers to fill a room with sound. Remember, at least half of the movie is visual experience. The focus on sound is now over the top with Dolby Atmos, the sound now so dominate the movie experience, it takes you out of the movie instead of drawing you into it. Even with some regular 5.1 mixes, at times, that is the case, the sound is a distraction.

 

[Cos]

Most people that have Dolby Atmos equipped receivers are probably not even set up for Dolby Atmos.

Not trying rain on anyone's parade, did not say it wasn't a good surround sound technology, I just believe it's overkill. A small room really doesn't need more than five speakers to fill a room with sound. Remember, at least half of the movie is visual experience. The focus on sound is now over the top with Dolby Atmos, the sound now so dominate the movie experience, it takes you out of the movie instead of drawing you into it. Even with some regular 5.1 mixes, at times, that is the case, the sound is a distraction.

I would say 99% of receiver owners don't use 50% of the features, doesn't mean they don't improve the experience. You are so focused on your opinion that you fail to recognize others. In mid to larger sized movie room it enhances my experience, it is not over the top. Smaller rooms it doesn't make sense, neither does 7.1 or 5.1 in some cases. It is all relative.

 

[Cos]

Normally don't bump my own posts, but this qualifies as mainstream if it is actually true.

https://www.xfinity.com/support/cable-tv/dolby-atmos-x1/

 

[yepimonfire]

Again, I will disagree VUDU with Dolby Atmos does show a greater acceptance/support of the format, to totally discount that is just plain ignorant in my opinion. Is it a game changer, no, does it show it's growing in support, yes. VUDU has a very large user base and market share. It's definitely not the Tidal of Movie streaming services. Those VUDU movie codes that everyone buys helps keep its user base pretty significant.

Your keep on pointing out that it's dead, I am pointing out it's not dead. It's not all or nothing, that was the only thing I was pointing out. It has support, support is growing, I don't see it every taking off fully mainstream, but I don't think it is going away.

Many HTIB systems are incorporating atmos, and quite a few sound bars as well, it's made its way into the lowest common denominator of average consumer, almost all new receivers now come equipped with atmos, it's going to be as standard as 5.1 soon.

Most people that have Dolby Atmos equipped receivers are probably not even set up for Dolby Atmos.

Not trying rain on anyone's parade, did not say it wasn't a good surround sound technology, I just believe it's overkill. A small room really doesn't need more than five speakers to fill a room with sound. Remember, at least half of the movie is visual experience. The focus on sound is now over the top with Dolby Atmos, the sound now so dominate the movie experience, it takes you out of the movie instead of drawing you into it. Even with some regular 5.1 mixes, at times, that is the case, the sound is a distraction.

5.1 may not be mainstream, but almost everything is encoded with it, from OTA broadcasts to netflix, a growing majority of blurays are mixed in 7.1 as well, even though a majority of people with HT systems use 5.1. Movies are already mixed using atmos for theaters, so why not just put it onto the blurays? It's not going to take more space or be a bigger effort on the studios part.

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[MMK]

Newbie to the forum, I previously had a 5.1 setup with the Denon AVR X4300H but decided to add Atmos since the AV can support a 5.2.4 setup. I opted for the speaker add on modules (Klipsch RP140SA) for a 5.1.2 but after calibration and testing (using the Atmos trailers on Dolby's site) I didn't find them to be that effective so i will be returning them.

I have decided to go the .2 in-ceiling route which worked out to be about the same cost including speakers (KEF Ci200QR) and installation. I considered a .4 in-ceiling setup but my couch is against the back wall and i don't like the look of height speakers plus the room is small 18LX12WX8H, when i finish my basement then i'll consider the proper set up. Work currently in progress....will update once I calibrate with Audyssey.

 

[Klipschhead302]

Normally don't bump my own posts, but this qualifies as mainstream if it is actually true.

https://www.xfinity.com/support/cable-tv/dolby-atmos-x1/

I never trust anything Comcast says as automatic but I'm going to give this a try, thanks for posting.

 

[Klipschhead302]

Many HTIB systems are incorporating atmos, and quite a few sound bars as well, it's made its way into the lowest common denominator of average consumer, almost all new receivers now come equipped with atmos, it's going to be as standard as 5.1 soon.

5.1 may not be mainstream, but almost everything is encoded with it, from OTA broadcasts to netflix, a growing majority of blurays are mixed in 7.1 as well, even though a majority of people with HT systems use 5.1. Movies are already mixed using atmos for theaters, so why not just put it onto the blurays? It's not going to take more space or be a bigger effort on the studios part.

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I'm going to stick with front wides until the cows come home..... errrr or however that saying goes.

 

[yepimonfire]

I'm going to stick with front wides until the cows come home..... errrr or however that saying goes.

If I had a receiver that did front wides via dts x rather than audessy I'd do the same. Dsx literally does nothing but emulate first reflections, there's no channel steering. I tried it for awhile and outside of it making the front stage feel wider I wasn't impressed. For diffuse sounds it worked great, hard pans to the left and right were greatly exaggerated and lost coherence.

I've always felt there is a gap in the sound stage, even with 11.2

If somebody built a receiver that did 11.1.6 (five fronts, 2 surrounds 4 rears, and 6 heights ) and I could find a way to afford it with all the extra speakers, I feel that would truly create the most seamless sounstage.

Pretty much every channel layout less than that, including 7.1.4 and 9.1.4 is a compromise that relies on Phantom imaging. Atmos is certainly built to handle Phantom imaging, which is why objects can be placed in space regardless of the speaker layout.

One thing people might miss during atmos setup is the fact that surrounds are no longer there to add depth and ambiance to the soundtrack. Traditional guidelines for speaker placement in 5.1 and 7.1 call for elevating the speakers at least 2' above ear level and to avoid pointing them directly at the MLP. With atmos, they're supposed to be at ear level and pointing directly at the MLP. In 7.1, the surrounds are placed directly to the left and right of the mlp, in 5.1, they are placed 110 degrees behind the MLP and toed into the mlp, IOW they are placed in such a way as to sit between the space the surrounds and surround backs would go, in order to fulfill both roles.

3D audio kinda reminds me of 3D graphics settings in pc games. You can run the game on the lowest settings and still get a good approximation of what the graphics are portraying. The shadows may have less cascading and have rougher edges, the models may have less tessellation applied and be a bit blockier, the lighting may be less accurate and more approximate, and the textures may not be as sharp, but it still portrays the same image that the game portrays with the graphics set to ultra. It's just ultra looks so much more realistic.

That's what people are missing about atmos and dts x. While discrete overhead sound is an exclusive feature brought to the table with atmos, it's so much more than that. It's about being able to properly position audio objects in space, and being able to correctly represent that position regardless of the number of speakers, even on the bed channels. If you play a 7.1 track on a traditional 5.1 setup, with the surrounds facing the MLP at the ideal 90 degrees, it's just folded in, there's no behind sound. If you play a 7.1 track with atmos or dts x with the surrounds at 110 degrees at ear level, the rear surround are now placed between the surrounds as a Phantom image, with the appropriate timing delay, doing a pretty damn good job of making due with the available speakers. Even if movies were mixed in 13.1 or even 24.1 it would fall short of the goal of atmos, because atmos isn't about just adding more channels and speakers.

If you haven't checked out the dts x object emulator demo or dolby's helicopter demo yet I strongly suggest you do. It does not matter what configuration of speakers you have or how many you have, as long as the distance is properly set in the avr and the speakers are placed at the correct angle and level matched, you get the same rendition of object placement regardless. I hear you can even do 3.1.2 I'm curious to see what happens to the surround channels in this configuration, and plan to test it myself. My guess is they are somehow routed to a place between the heights and left and rights.

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[Klipschhead302]

yepimonfire, that was a lot to digest but it was very well said and has me re-thinking.

I admit, I have oversensitive ears to hearing real high frequencies (so I bought Klipsch, I know right??), even in my 50's and being sensitive to boomy bass (who isn't I guess?). So when a speaker gets content with high frequency I can easily tell where its coming from unless its all over the place.

Directionality in a 15x14 room seems less capable unless it was purposefully placed there on the disc like demo discs show off. Movies pan audio around and specific things do hit speakers and it sounds great, like Jurassic World for instance, incredible, even Jurassic Park sounds fantastic.

I bought Klipsch RP-160M's for the front wides, as bookshelf speakers they aren't the most expensive but they certainly aren't cheap either. Plus they may be overkill for those positions I suppose but they sound great when content hits them. I have to say, they do add a wider stage in almost every movie we listen to and my wife says did you hear that?!? When a woman who thought her AM radio in her Chevy Cavalier (20 years ago) sounded adequate for her needs says WOW this sounds incredible, you take notice. So I may be wanting the front wides more because I spent the money over practical use even though I'd swear they seem to add to the front stage in everything we listen to, as long as we pick the right mode.

By reading the "Official Audyssey" thread at AVS I found that by correcting the distance for my subwoofers I was screwing up how they sounded. For years I thought it sounded fine at the MLP, boy was I wrong. I stopped visiting HT forums for years because I wasn't doing much so did the same thing each time I set up or moved something, that was stupid of me. Now I run Audyssey and leave the distances and once completed the low end is so much tighter and what used to be intensity is now much more so. There are times the floor feels like it's going to be lifted up from under your feet, you hear nothing but the entire room seems to swell and move. Lesson learned so I'm listening here as well.

I would love to configure for Atmos and call it a day, the Marantz AVR literally has an Atmos setting which I have yet to use because I thought this would not allow for other modes when Atmos wasn't in play, for instance what mode would be used when a disc lacks Atmos but the speakers are 5.2.4? Plus I would have to change the height amplifiers for the rear height channels losing the side surrounds.

I have a few Atmos encoded movies such as Passengers which sounded incredible in Dobly D NEO:X using 9.2.2 and with the wife home when I'm home she HATES it when I'm tweaking the system and affecting her TV show watching (she is selfish in this regard, she admits it) so I avoid arguments since she allows 11.2 channels of speakers in our 15x14 living room soon to be 11.3 when I finish hauling my 120lb MFW15 up from the basement Saturday morning.

Having said that Saturday I will go through the amp assignments and Audyssey run through for 9.2.2, 7.2.4 and 5.2.4 which means I'll have to move 2 of the rear surround speakers to height positions and do lots of testing of various movies.

I guess I like the 9.2.2 configuration because A, it's done and sounds great, seriously great and I can be lazy and leave it alone. HOWEVER, knowing I can be missing something after spending the money on height amplifiers for the front and a boat load of speakers the past month I NEED to get it configured to sound right so I can then hide the wires going up to all of these speakers and just sit back and enjoy!

I can't do DTS:X with the SR7009 but was contemplating an upgrade to the SR7010, if I don't do front wides I could make the jump to the SR7011 or wait for the SR7012 to come out later this year forcing the price to drop on the SR7011.

 

[Klipschhead302]

I never trust anything Comcast says as automatic but I'm going to give this a try, thanks for posting.

Mine was already set for this, I guess when I do my Atmos testing on Saturday I'll find out if this actually works or not.

 

[yepimonfire]

yepimonfire, that was a lot to digest but it was very well said and has me re-thinking.

I admit, I have oversensitive ears to hearing real high frequencies (so I bought Klipsch, I know right??), even in my 50's and being sensitive to boomy bass (who isn't I guess?). So when a speaker gets content with high frequency I can easily tell where its coming from unless its all over the place.

Directionality in a 15x14 room seems less capable unless it was purposefully placed there on the disc like demo discs show off. Movies pan audio around and specific things do hit speakers and it sounds great, like Jurassic World for instance, incredible, even Jurassic Park sounds fantastic.

I bought Klipsch RP-160M's for the front wides, as bookshelf speakers they aren't the most expensive but they certainly aren't cheap either. Plus they may be overkill for those positions I suppose but they sound great when content hits them. I have to say, they do add a wider stage in almost every movie we listen to and my wife says did you hear that?!? When a woman who thought her AM radio in her Chevy Cavalier (20 years ago) sounded adequate for her needs says WOW this sounds incredible, you take notice. So I may be wanting the front wides more because I spent the money over practical use even though I'd swear they seem to add to the front stage in everything we listen to, as long as we pick the right mode.

By reading the "Official Audyssey" thread at AVS I found that by correcting the distance for my subwoofers I was screwing up how they sounded. For years I thought it sounded fine at the MLP, boy was I wrong. I stopped visiting HT forums for years because I wasn't doing much so did the same thing each time I set up or moved something, that was stupid of me. Now I run Audyssey and leave the distances and once completed the low end is so much tighter and what used to be intensity is now much more so. There are times the floor feels like it's going to be lifted up from under your feet, you hear nothing but the entire room seems to swell and move. Lesson learned so I'm listening here as well.

I would love to configure for Atmos and call it a day, the Marantz AVR literally has an Atmos setting which I have yet to use because I thought this would not allow for other modes when Atmos wasn't in play, for instance what mode would be used when a disc lacks Atmos but the speakers are 5.2.4? Plus I would have to change the height amplifiers for the rear height channels losing the side surrounds.

I have a few Atmos encoded movies such as Passengers which sounded incredible in Dobly D NEO:X using 9.2.2 and with the wife home when I'm home she HATES it when I'm tweaking the system and affecting her TV show watching (she is selfish in this regard, she admits it) so I avoid arguments since she allows 11.2 channels of speakers in our 15x14 living room soon to be 11.3 when I finish hauling my 120lb MFW15 up from the basement Saturday morning.

Having said that Saturday I will go through the amp assignments and Audyssey run through for 9.2.2, 7.2.4 and 5.2.4 which means I'll have to move 2 of the rear surround speakers to height positions and do lots of testing of various movies.

I guess I like the 9.2.2 configuration because A, it's done and sounds great, seriously great and I can be lazy and leave it alone. HOWEVER, knowing I can be missing something after spending the money on height amplifiers for the front and a boat load of speakers the past month I NEED to get it configured to sound right so I can then hide the wires going up to all of these speakers and just sit back and enjoy!

I can't do DTS:X with the SR7009 but was contemplating an upgrade to the SR7010, if I don't do front wides I could make the jump to the SR7011 or wait for the SR7012 to come out later this year forcing the price to drop on the SR7011.

I'm confused, are you using wides and heights in a 9.2.2 config or just wides in a 9.2 configuration? If you already have heights and wides and have just been using DSX, you're missing out, and are already set up for atmos. An 11ch atmos configuration includes wides, discrete wides at that. You use the surround upmixing, same thing as neo x but for dolby. If the receiver supports atmos, it's probably defaulting to it on atmos discs and you're just not aware of it.

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[Klipschhead302]

I'm confused, are you using wides and heights in a 9.2.2 config or just wides in a 9.2 configuration? If you already have heights and wides and have just been using DSX, you're missing out, and are already set up for atmos. An 11ch atmos configuration includes wides, discrete wides at that. You use the surround upmixing, same thing as neo x but for dolby. If the receiver supports atmos, it's probably defaulting to it on atmos discs and you're just not aware of it.

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Yes I'm using front height and front wides 9.2.2 however the AVR when set in Atmos mode removes the front wides. I use Dolby D NEO:X and get all channels playing, Atmos isn't an option configured like this.

I'll see if I can get some time on the system tonight, depends on what the wife is watching to show what the screen options are and take pics of them.

 

[yepimonfire]

Yes I'm using front height and front wides 9.2.2 however the AVR when set in Atmos mode removes the front wides. I use Dolby D NEO:X and get all channels playing, Atmos isn't an option configured like this.

I'll see if I can get some time on the system tonight, depends on what the wife is watching to show what the screen options are and take pics of them.

According to the manual it should use the wides. Might wanna comb through it and figure out why it isnt. Atmos definitely does support both front and rear wides though.

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