Upgrade Recommendations?

[shadyJ]

The room itself needs to be addressed as well, it is quite bare at the moment which isn't helping much of anything... but that not an overnight process, and I plan on staying here for a long time so it will likely be a work in progress for quite some time.

That said, a couple of questions:

Since I have no experience first hand with either, how does a ULS15 mk2 compare to the VTF-3 mk5?

Regarding the miniDSP, are you talking about the 2x4? Do you apply that on top of Audyssey, or perhaps not let Auyssey calibrate the subs at all?

lovintheHD has the scoop on Audyssey + miniDSP.

As for the room, there is nothing you can do to improve frequencies in the subwoofer range as far as acoustic room treatments go. Room treatments can only improve sound well above subwoofer frequencies. However, the main speakers are still responsible for a great deal of bass output, some of which can be affected by certain treatments, and those are upper bass frequencies.

The ULS-15 mk2 is basically a VTF-3 mk5 in a sealed cabinet. By sealing the cabinet, you lose a great deal of deep bass output, but it does allow for a smaller enclosure. If you have room for the larger cabinet, go for the VTF-3, although the ULS-15 mk2 is still a killer subwoofer. You can always run the VTF-3 in sealed mode if you want less deep bass.

 

[ryouiki]

Generally with a minidsp you would work with that before running Audyssey, not after (not sure which way you were going with "on top of" ); you wouldn't necessarily need Audyssey but many report good results using both. Minidsp 2x4 comes in several flavors, btw; unbalanced, balanced, HD (and either boxed or as a board/kit form).

Okay wasn't exactly how that would work... can always try it both ways to see... right now I am only leaving XT32 on, don't care much for Dynamic EQ/Volume/etc.

I already looked at the 2x4 when I was reading up on the UMIK... the pre-pro/amplifier are using balanced connectors, but seem to be very rare on consumer subwoofers. I do love Neutrix connectors though... all the surround channels are using Speakon's at the wall because I hate cables getting knocked loose.

 

[lovinthehd]

Okay wasn't exactly how that would work... can always try it both ways to see... right now I am only leaving XT32 on, don't care much for Dynamic EQ/Volume/etc.

I already looked at the 2x4 when I was reading up on the UMIK... the pre-pro/amplifier are using balanced connectors, but seem to be very rare on consumer subwoofers. I do love Neutrix connectors though... all the surround channels are using Speakon's at the wall because I hate cables getting knocked loose.

DynamicEQ is a fancy loudness contour, boosting frequencies not heard well at lower spl according to acoustic studies, changing as you raise volume (basically reverting to the basic Audyssey calibration at reference level). DynamicVolume is a compression routine for a situation like late night viewing with lessening impact to space around you, if you don't need that turn it off; same for the LFC adjustment. My main consumer subwoofer has a XLR connection (Neutrik is a brand). My diy sub amps all accept XLR connectors but a moot point as my avr is only providing unbalanced rca. I just build rca/xlr cables or rca/phoenix and phoenix/xlr depending on which minidsp I'm using. Love my speakons to all my subs, and incorporate those on my diy speakers as well.

The unbalanced 2x4 has a limited output of .9V which is a major consideration; the balanced is limited to 2.0V as is the HD, the HD has more extended delay capabilities. For most consumer subs the unbalanced will work but if you're working with pro amps for subs, the higher output may be needed. If you have your subs fairly close the balanced/unbalanced versions delay capabilities may suffice but if at longer distances you may need the HD version.

 

[ryouiki]

The unbalanced 2x4 has a limited output of .9V which is a major consideration; the balanced is limited to 2.0V as is the HD, the HD has more extended delay capabilities. For most consumer subs the unbalanced will work but if you're working with pro amps for subs, the higher output may be needed. If you have your subs fairly close the balanced/unbalanced versions delay capabilities may suffice but if at longer distances you may need the HD version.

Hmm I haven't looked at the specs that deeply... 0.9V for either input or output seems exceedingly low unless I am missing something. Their spec sheets are also not entirely clear... stating that the balanced model is either 2/4v for both input/output depending on jumper selection.

I've got enough strange issues with gain going as is... the pre-pro/amplifier combination already almost craters (-9.5db) the speaker trims, and this is on 86db (2.83V) speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

Dang, forgot again they updated the output on the balanced up to 4V (which should be plenty for any amp I can think of). Shoulda checked specs, sorry, was going off last time I bought my unbalanced which was before the updated board and I'd been informed otherwise in the meantime....my memory plays trickses on me in me old age

Check out member andy_c's document he put together here http://andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/minidsp-2x4-unbalanced.html

 

[ryouiki]

Check out member andy_c's document he put together here http://andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/minidsp-2x4-unbalanced.html

I will take a look... the pre-pro seems to run a pretty hot signal so I'm not sure what is going to be best here. Even just straight off the RCA jacks, the Klipsch subwoofers have need the volume control at below -15db before Audyssey stops complaining they are too loud... to get the trim in the -6db range, they are running at -19db.

The spec sheets put the voltage on the unbalanced RCA's at 1.2V, and the balanced outputs at 2.1V... and I can't find any specifications for input sensitivity on any of the HSU subwoofers.

 

[lovinthehd]

All the commercial subs I have are pretty tolerant of avr output levels, its my Crown XLS1500s with a 1.4V sensitivity that need more (but if you had the new Crown gen 2s, they have adjustable sensitivity of .775V/1.4V). I originally went with an unbalanced when I just had commercial subs to play with.

 

[ryouiki]

lovintheHD has the scoop on Audyssey + miniDSP.

As for the room, there is nothing you can do to improve frequencies in the subwoofer range as far as acoustic room treatments go. Room treatments can only improve sound well above subwoofer frequencies. However, the main speakers are still responsible for a great deal of bass output, some of which can be affected by certain treatments, and those are upper bass frequencies.

The ULS-15 mk2 is basically a VTF-3 mk5 in a sealed cabinet. By sealing the cabinet, you lose a great deal of deep bass output, but it does allow for a smaller enclosure. If you have room for the larger cabinet, go for the VTF-3, although the ULS-15 mk2 is still a killer subwoofer. You can always run the VTF-3 in sealed mode if you want less deep bass.

I was under the impression that while room treatments can't fix frequency response down that low, they can help with things like decay... or am I misinformed?

Size of the cabinet isn't a huge issue... weight on the other hand is starting to be a bit more of an issue when trying to manipulate all this equipment around the room in my old age (and up the stairs, and etc.) I was just curious about the ULS since it seems to be pretty capable if you aren't getting it too loud.

 

[shadyJ]

I was under the impression that while room treatments can't fix frequency response down that low, they can help with things like decay... or am I misinformed?

Size of the cabinet isn't a huge issue... weight on the other hand is starting to be a bit more of an issue when trying to manipulate all this equipment around the room in my old age (and up the stairs, and etc.) I was just curious about the ULS since it seems to be pretty capable if you aren't getting it too loud.

Room treatments can not help with decay or delayed sound in low bass frequencies. The ways to deal with room acoustics in subwoofer frequency bands is to either move the sub, move the listening position, add more subs, and EQ down the peaks.

As for the ULS, yeah, it is a relatively light subwoofer at 65 lbs, and easier to handle on account of its smaller size. In a small room, the low frequencies will get a natural boost in output anyway, so if you room is small, it might be a better choice.

 

[lovinthehd]

I was under the impression that while room treatments can't fix frequency response down that low, they can help with things like decay... or am I misinformed?

Size of the cabinet isn't a huge issue... weight on the other hand is starting to be a bit more of an issue when trying to manipulate all this equipment around the room in my old age (and up the stairs, and etc.) I was just curious about the ULS since it seems to be pretty capable if you aren't getting it too loud.

You can always take the driver out and move the driver and box in separate trips....

 

[shadyJ]

You can always take the driver out and move the driver and box in separate trips....

That saves some weight, but not a huge amount, 22 lbs. ULS-15 mk2 / VTF-3 mk5 driver is surprisingly powerful for its weight, actually. However, the difference between 65 lbs and 85 lbs is pretty significant. 85 lbs is still a handful, but its a pretty easy load if you have a friend come over and give you a hand.

 

[lovinthehd]

That saves some weight, but not a huge amount, 22 lbs. ULS-15 mk2 / VTF-3 mk5 driver is surprisingly powerful for its weight, actually. However, the difference between 65 lbs and 85 lbs is pretty significant. 85 lbs is still a handful, but its a pretty easy load if you have a friend come over and give you a hand.

Anything that helps, helps. When I want to move a sub I just want to move a sub...not find someone with nothing better to do

 

[ryouiki]

As for the ULS, yeah, it is a relatively light subwoofer at 65 lbs, and easier to handle on account of its smaller size. In a small room, the low frequencies will get a natural boost in output anyway, so if you room is small, it might be a better choice.

Sorry if I keep going on an on with the questions, but the concept of "small" is somewhat nebulous... is 16x14x10 considered "small" by whatever measurement?

 

[lovinthehd]

It's small but it's not the ULS15 isn't that small....it's 18" x 18" x 18" with more for feet/grill; what is the 16 x 14 x 10 dims match up to?

Sealed subs like the ULS15 are relatively small, but compared to something like an LLT sub with a 15" driver, they're very small

 

[ryouiki]

Sorry, I think my wording was bad there... I was asking if those dimensions (16' x 14' x 10') are considered a "small room".

 

[lovinthehd]

Sorry, I think my wording was bad there... I was asking if those dimensions (16' x 14' x 10') are considered a "small room".

LOL didn't even think of a room but if you'd had the apostrophes in place I might have. Yes, that's a relatively small room but judged "medium" via the Audioholics definition of sub/room sizes....as long as its sealed off from others.

 

[shadyJ]

LOL didn't even think of a room but if you'd had the apostrophes in place I might have. Yes, that's a relatively small room but judged "medium" via the Audioholics definition of sub/room sizes....as long as its sealed off from others.

agreed, you should be able to get some very good room gain in a room that small, so I think a ULS-15 mk2 will work nicely there. Remember to run it in 'EQ2' mode. A VTF3 will get you some massive deep bass in a room like that, if that is what you want.

 

[ryouiki]

A VTF3 will get you some massive deep bass in a room like that, if that is what you want.

I suppose that is the crux of the problem...

I don't really care of for the whole floor feels like its shaking/stuff is falling off the walls craziness... to me that is fun the first few times/trying to show off a setup to someone else... but those are rare/not what it is being used for 99.999% of the time.

On the other hand I don't really have an feel for say a sub like the ULS-15 or VTF3 vs. the subs I posted the measurements on... so I don't want to spend money just to spend money, and then end up feeling like I have nothing to show for it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Subs don't need to be in your face to be effective (and are used far more than .0001% of the time unless you're just not using it, like have it turned off or speakers set to large etc). The ported sub will likely have a bit more oomph in lower frequencies but both are capable subs, but not capable if you simply don't want to use one. It's up to you whether a sub is worth it; you could simply keep using the RW12d's, too.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I suppose that is the crux of the problem...

I don't really care of for the whole floor feels like its shaking/stuff is falling off the walls craziness... to me that is fun the first few times/trying to show off a setup to someone else... but those are rare/not what it is being used for 99.999% of the time.

On the other hand I don't really have an feel for say a sub like the ULS-15 or VTF3 vs. the subs I posted the measurements on... so I don't want to spend money just to spend money, and then end up feeling like I have nothing to show for it.

Subs don't need to be in your face to be effective (and are used far more than .0001% of the time unless you're just not using it, like have it turned off or speakers set to large etc). The ported sub will likely have a bit more oomph in lower frequencies but both are capable subs, but not capable if you simply don't want to use one. It's up to you whether a sub is worth it; you could simply keep using the RW12d's, too.

Agree with Hd here.
Once you experience a real subwoofer(not a dig on yours), you'll know that deep linear bass is like nothing else. The devil is in the details and one place where great subs shine is ironically in their subtlety. Pitch definition, and nuanced bass is just not gonna come out of the klipschs. And believe it or not, 24hz is way too high to roll off an HT subwoofer. You mentioned not having a feel for subs like the HSU's. Once you do you'll see what I mean. Ironically you'll be able to have the couch shaking, but not need to have it cranked.