Upgrade from Outlaw 975?!

[lietuvis91]

Hi All,

I have a sort of a fubar setup, with some expensive stuff matched with some cheap stuff. I have a Parasound A21 amp and also just bought a Classe Sigma AMP2. Haven't decided which I will keep yet, but I am pairing them with Polk LSi9 bookies and an Outlaw 975 processor. At some point I will drop a bunch of money on new speakers, but for now I was wondering if my pre is holding me back any in terms of SQ?

I really like the Outlaw 975 for it's features, i use the HDMI and FM Tunner a lot, so I was wondering if anyone can offer any advice on something that's higher end (up to $5k in MSRP) with similar features. Is that expense worth the money, or should I focus on something else? Or is there not much to be gained with a new pre without replacing the speakers first?

(I know most will suggest I buy new speakers, and that is in the works. For now, I've been very impressed with how the LSi9s have improved with all the upgrades I've done, so I want to treat them to one last upgrade before I write them off, as I do overall enjoy their sound.)

EDIT: My sig is ancient, I own nothing on that list at the moment.

 

[j_garcia]

LSi9s are not bad. I wasn't fond of the mids, but the Ring Radiator tweeter is nice and I liked them well enough.

First question is, do you like how it sounds now with the 975? If so then I don't know that dropping $5K on a pre will make you $5K more happy. IIRC though, sounds like the Emotiva XMC-1 with DIRAC would suit you very well at under $2K. I heard the new LSiMs on this processor and thought it sounded quite good.

YES, speakers should come first since they are the #1 aspect in how the system sounds and $5k towards speakers will do MUCH MUCH more than it will on a Pre.

 

[Bucknekked]

Hi All,

I have a sort of a fubar setup, with some expensive stuff matched with some cheap stuff. I have a Parasound A21 amp and also just bought a Classe Sigma AMP2. Haven't decided which I will keep yet, but I am pairing them with Polk LSi9 bookies and an Outlaw 975 processor. At some point I will drop a bunch of money on new speakers, but for now I was wondering if my pre is holding me back any in terms of SQ?

I really like the Outlaw 975 for it's features, i use the HDMI and FM Tunner a lot, so I was wondering if anyone can offer any advice on something that's higher end (up to $5k in MSRP) with similar features. Is that expense worth the money, or should I focus on something else? Or is there not much to be gained with a new pre without replacing the speakers first?

(I know most will suggest I buy new speakers, and that is in the works. For now, I've been very impressed with how the LSi9s have improved with all the upgrades I've done, so I want to treat them to one last upgrade before I write them off, as I do overall enjoy their sound.)

EDIT: My sig is ancient, I own nothing on that list at the moment.

fubar is ok with me. fubar is how most of the real world gets done.
sight unseen and completely based on not hearing a single sound your system has made, I can offer an opinion. you know exactly what you paid for the opinion so you know how far ahead of the game you are.

If you like your power section (amp and pre) then stand firm with those until you pick a lovely new voice for them in speakers. Amps and pre-'s tend to be neutral and neither detract or add to a systems sound when they are over the "good enough" bar. Speakers on the other hand return a pretty decent bang for your buck in terms of overall sound improvement.

Its only my opinion, but I'm going to put my money where my opinions mouth is this month. I will be buying speakers and not new amplification. I think the return and upgrade is in the speakers. Amps will be there eventually if I get the itch. There you have it. A free opinion.

 

[j_garcia]

Reasons to upgrade from 975 might be auto calibration and HDMI though. While I was impressed with DIRAC on the XMC-1, I still did not feel like that $2k was well spent for my system either. I just setup the MC-700 from them this weekend and I am pleased.

 

[lietuvis91]

LSi9s are not bad. I wasn't fond of the mids, but the Ring Radiator tweeter is nice and I liked them well enough.

First question is, do you like how it sounds now with the 975? If so then I don't know that dropping $5K on a pre will make you $5K more happy. IIRC though, sounds like the Emotiva XMC-1 with DIRAC would suit you very well at under $2K. I heard the new LSiMs on this processor and thought it sounded quite good.

With regards to your question on whether I like the sound, the combination of A21+975+Lsi9 is very inviting and pleasant to listen to, albeit, not exactly audio nirvana. The sound is like a warm blanket that covers the room and your ears. It's very involving and soothing, but the resolution/separation/detail is a bit lacking.

I picked up a used Classe Sigma AMP2 because I will be moving into a tiny 650 sqft 1 bedroom condo, and will need to really downsize my whole setup. This amp is a high quality class D amp that delivers similar power as the A21 but in a much smaller form factor and much lower heat. The thought long term is to potentially pair this amp with Salk Silk towers, which seem to be made for these small room configurations.

Plugging in the Sigma AMP2 into my current setup, however, revealed something very interesting. The sound seems to have totally changed. I get much better detail and resolution, but some of the impact, depth and sparkle is now gone. I suppose part of the reason may have been due to going from a class A/B to a class D amp. I am also thinking that it's possible this amp is more revealing of the shortcomings of the rest of my system (pre, speakers, cabling, etc.) That just speculation.

Of course every change can turn into a science project... and this certainly has.

Longer term, I was thinking about adding the Sigma SSP processor and Salk Silk towers which I think will be a very high quality setup that should, theoretically sound pretty impressive. For now, I don't have the money to make all that happen at once, so I'm wondering if some intermediate step is worth taking. Hence this thread.

 

[lietuvis91]

Reasons to upgrade from 975 might be auto calibration and HDMI though. While I was impressed with DIRAC on the XMC-1, I still did not feel like that $2k was well spent for my system either. I just setup the MC-700 from them this weekend and I am pleased.

Appreciate the suggestion, but I do not intend to consider Emotiva. I know they are good at their price point, but I'm just a little passed the entry level stuff at this stage.

 

[lietuvis91]

fubar is ok with me. fubar is how most of the real world gets done.
sight unseen and completely based on not hearing a single sound your system has made, I can offer an opinion. you know exactly what you paid for the opinion so you know how far ahead of the game you are.

If you like your power section (amp and pre) then stand firm with those until you pick a lovely new voice for them in speakers. Amps and pre-'s tend to be neutral and neither detract or add to a systems sound when they are over the "good enough" bar. Speakers on the other hand return a pretty decent bang for your buck in terms of overall sound improvement.

Its only my opinion, but I'm going to put my money where my opinions mouth is this month. I will be buying speakers and not new amplification. I think the return and upgrade is in the speakers. Amps will be there eventually if I get the itch. There you have it. A free opinion.

Well, I do like the Lsi9, and with every upgrade I have done, I have experienced an improvement in the sound of that speaker, to varying degrees, and to a pretty significant degree with some upgrades. This taught me that spending money in the right places can really improve the sound meaningfully, so just like everyone else, I'm looking for the next level of improvement, that's within my budget.

Adding the a21 amp was probably the most significant step up in sound quality, but in my new environment, I would like to get components that are smaller in size and produce less heat. This is why I picked up the Sigma AMP2, for starters.

So while the a21+975+lsi9 was a very pleasant combo to run for a couple of years, and I do immensely enjoy this setup, since it will not work where I'm moving, it'll be time for a complete change anyway. Let's just say I am ready to step it up a notch. ;-)

 

[j_garcia]

That is pretty much how I felt about the original LSis. Good, but lacking midrange detail. On a variety of amps, they still sounded that way to me. The Salks, pretty much any of them, will improve on the LSis IMO. For SS amps, I prefer A/B to D. D may give you that flat detail oriented sound, but it tends to lack in "life" as you seem to suggest. Chasing the changes before the speaker is not the best path, start with the speakers. Speakers are going to give you the most bang for the buck still, no matter what.

I'd say give Joseph Audio a listen too if you can at this price range. The Perspective is a nice small tower.

I would definitely not call the XMC-1 "entry" level lol, but they've just added a $5K pre coming soon too. I'd call my MC-700 entry, but that doesn't mean the system doesn't deliver. With my CA0W1s playing, you'd think I spent a lot more. I can afford the XMC-1, but at this point I have other places to spend that money.

 

[lietuvis91]

That is pretty much how I felt about the original LSis. Good, but lacking midrange detail. On a variety of amps, they still sounded that way to me. The Salks, pretty much any of them, will improve on the LSis IMO. For SS amps, I prefer A/B to D. D may give you that flat detail oriented sound, but it tends to lack in "life" as you seem to suggest. Chasing the changes before the speaker is not the best path, start with the speakers. Speakers are going to give you the most bang for the buck still, no matter what.

I'd say give Joseph Audio a listen too if you can at this price range. The Perspective is a nice small tower.

I would definitely not call the XMC-1 "entry" level lol, but they've just added a $5K pre coming soon too. I'd call my MC-700 entry, but that doesn't mean the system doesn't deliver. With my CA0W1s playing, you'd think I spent a lot more. I can afford the XMC-1, but at this point I have other places to spend that money.

I am starting to realize the same thing, so I agree with you. I'm approaching this process sort of backwards. Space constraints are primarily the reason I am picking the processor and amp first, and then I'll pick the speaker. My assumption is that so long as the processor and amp are high end, it should still sound good, given quality wires and so forth. So i guess we shall see...

 

[lietuvis91]

Well, I have to say I'm really warming up to this class D amp: Sigma AMP2. I think it's taken the LSI9 yet another step up in sound quality that's almost unrecognizable from where I started with it when I had that speaker running off of a cheaper 125w amp.

This hobby really is like a box of chocolates: each new piece of gear will change the sound in way that you never expect.

 

[lovinthehd]

This hobby really is like a box of chocolates: each new piece of gear will change the sound in way that you never expect.

....or in just the way you expected....

 

[slipperybidness]

....or in just the way you expected....

Expectation bias. It's real and it's difficult to defeat!

In my field, I often have someone else go review results and data. Sometimes on critical samples, I don't even process them because I know exactly what to expect and that can easily bias how I prep samples or how I interpret results!

And, when I draw conclusions based on analytical results, I make my conclusion but I ask my colleagues, "what does this data tell us" without first stating my conclusion--All because I do not want to bias their judgment.

3rd party review and analysis is always a good idea. Someone that has nothing to gain or lose dependent upon the results.

 

[Bucknekked]

Expectation bias. It's real and it's difficult to defeat!

A mechanism has to exist to help the snake oil industry, or the guys selling expensive products, or the wild-ass unsubstantiated claims folks, sell their wares. Expectation bias is one of the mainstays. Like you said, its a very real thing and hard to undo once you fall prey. A big chunk of the revenues in our hobby are driven by drool over the new and cool "things" we could get that will make our stuff "sound better".

 

[lietuvis91]

....or in just the way you expected....

I really wish that was the case. Then i'd simply plug in a piece of new equipment and it would just immediately sound better (because that's what I expected when I bought it), and I'd be done with it...

However, in my experience so far, the opposite has been true.

With the exception of one specific set of MIT cables, which I loved right off the bat, every other equipment change has resulted in my immediate reaction being: "oh sh*t, I just blew a bunch on money, and this sounds so different and really not that good....". Right off the bat, I haven't liked any new piece i've added and I always end up spending several days listening to different sources, adjust settings and speaker placement, and in some cases trying different cables. Thankfully, so far, between the adjustments I make and my ears adjusting to pick up on the features of the new sonic signature, I have ended up mostly with an improved listening experience. But it's always taken work to get there, and it's never perfect. I'm still searching for perfect...

So, while I'm not denying the existence of confirmation bias, that hasn't exactly been my experience.

 

[lovinthehd]

I really wish that was the case. Then i'd simply plug in a piece of new equipment and it would just immediately sound better (because that's what I expected when I bought it), and I'd be done with it...

However, in my experience so far, the opposite has been true.

With the exception of one specific set of MIT cables, which I loved right off the bat, every other equipment change has resulted in my immediate reaction being: "oh sh*t, I just blew a bunch on money, and this sounds so different and really not that good....". Right off the bat, I haven't liked any new piece i've added and I always end up spending several days listening to different sources, adjust settings and speaker placement, and in some cases trying different cables. Thankfully, so far, between the adjustments I make and my ears adjusting to pick up on the features of the new sonic signature, I have ended up mostly with an improved listening experience. But it's always taken work to get there, and it's never perfect. I'm still searching for perfect...

So, while I'm not denying the existence of confirmation bias, that hasn't exactly been my experience.

Are those the MIT cables with the unknown circuits (maybe pseudo litz?) in a fancy box? Pure audiophoolery IMHO. Your way of testing isn't something I'd give any credence to. Good luck with that and your amp comparisons in any case but you have much to learn grasshopper.

 

[Bucknekked]

With the exception of one specific set of MIT cables, which I loved right off the bat, every other equipment change has resulted in my immediate reaction being: "oh sh*t, I just blew a bunch on money, and this sounds so different and really not that good....". Right off the bat, I haven't liked any new piece i've added

lietuvis91
I don't know what kind of equipment you keep buying that has you saying "oh s-h-i-t, i just blew more money" time after time and "Right off the bat I haven't like any new piece I've added". If that was me, I'd be looking pretty hard at my evaluation and decision criteria. I might join an audio forum for some advice.

I came to Audioholics to learn more about my audio hobby. I don't claim to be an expert on anything, much less an expert on audio systems. I come here on a regular basis to get a more fact based education on my sonic solutions. I come here so when I spend my hard earned money, like I will be this week, I will be delighted with my purchase, not dismayed.

I look forward to my new speakers. That's expectation bias. I read reviews and articles about them. That adds in reviewer bias. I went and auditioned the speakers in the home of someone who owns them: that adds in confirmation bias. Each of these layers of bias is unavoidable and could lead to catastrophe if it weren't for the science and measurement that backs each layer of opinion up. That's where the strength of AH comes in. They got the goods on actual, measured performance.

On the subject of perfect, I will leave that til the next life.

 

[lovinthehd]

lietuvis91
I don't know what kind of equipment you keep buying that has you saying "oh s-h-i-t, i just blew more money" time after time and "Right off the bat I haven't like any new piece I've added". If that was me, I'd be looking pretty hard at my evaluation and decision criteria. I might join an audio forum for some advice.

I came to Audioholics to learn more about my audio hobby. I don't claim to be an expert on anything, much less an expert on audio systems. I come here on a regular basis to get a more fact based education on my sonic solutions. I come here so when I spend my hard earned money, like I will be this week, I will be delighted with my purchase, not dismayed.

I look forward to my new speakers. That's expectation bias. I read reviews and articles about them. That adds in reviewer bias. I went and auditioned the speakers in the home of someone who owns them: that adds in confirmation bias. Each of these layers of bias is unavoidable and could lead to catastrophe if it weren't for the science and measurement that backs each layer of opinion up. That's where the strength of AH comes in. They got the goods on actual, measured performance.

On the subject of perfect, I will leave that til the next life.

You do have a way with words my friend....

 

[Bucknekked]

With the exception of one specific set of MIT cables, which I loved right off the bat, every other equipment change has resulted in my immediate reaction being: "oh sh*t, I just blew a bunch on money, and this sounds so different and really not that good....". Right off the bat, I haven't liked any new piece

lietuvis91
OK, I thought I could rest in peace and not touch the MIT cables thing. Dang, I really, really wish I could.
I know I have the right to remain silent, it seems I just don't have the ability.

I come to AH for the education and to learn stuff. Cables are part of that education. I have been in IT and in a technical field my whole life so technical mumbo jumbo is a language I speak pretty well. I also have a very well developed B.S. detector.

MIT Cables? May I share a few tibits from the MIT cables website? I won't change a word, I promise.

"MIT Cables' core audio cable technology is our exclusive Poles of Articulation, named after the fact that every audio cable has a single point where it is most efficient at storing and transporting energy. At this point in the audio frequency spectrum, the cable will articulate best, and represents the cables' particular Articulation Pole."

I could stop right there and we could have a lecture on each clause and phrase. I am going to press forward however, because it there are other items we probably need to see regarding MIT cables.

"Thank you for your purchase of MIT interface products. In order to achieve their full sonic potential, all MIT interfaces must be properly installed and burned in for the required length of time. Remember this simple 2/2 Rule: 75% of performance in two days — 100% in two weeks! The arrows on the cable indicate the direction of signal flow — the network box closest to the destination. (Reversing the direction will affect the sonic performance of the system!)"

Yes, although I am ignorant of the how or why, MIT cables require burn in, are directional AND come in a left and right channel. Wait ! Wait ! There's more

"After the initial two days of break in, the treble frequencies (above about 1 KHz) will begin to assume a more natural tonal balance and bass frequencies will have more authority.

• As more time passes, the soundstage will begin to open. There will be more space between instruments and dynamics will be improved.
• After the two-week period is over, the signature MIT image will appear, revealing microdynamics and subtle time-related cues, such as instrument voicing, recording-venue acoustics, and spatial effects. These developments can be dramatic — so please be patient!"

I was unaware that cables put more space between instruments on a soundstage and improve the dynamic range of a recording. And if we keep up, we get more recording venue acoustics and spacial effects. Dramatic effects. Just be patient.

You will notice that I, the relative newb, didn't make any statements about the MIT cables themselves. These are all quotes by the manufacturer. As a relative newb, I am not qualified to judge cables of this caliber. I leave that up to the manufacturer, and other folks who know better than me.

 

[lovinthehd]

FWIW I know the guy who designed some of those messed up glued funky interior fancy boxes....and the guy behind MIT used to run an auto transmission shop (apparently until he figured out how much money there was in audiophool cables)

 

[lietuvis91]

Are those the MIT cables with the unknown circuits (maybe pseudo litz?) in a fancy box? Pure audiophoolery IMHO. Your way of testing isn't something I'd give any credence to. Good luck with that and your amp comparisons in any case but you have much to learn grasshopper.

Nice!
So all I had to do was mention "cables" and "MIT" to get some attention around here?! lol!

This wasn't a high end cable at all. These ware actually probably the cheapest MIT branded ICs you can buy, model "EXPII", I think around $50/pair from some ebay retailer.

I ended up with them as I was really unhappy with the Monoprice 12g/AudioQuest Sidewinder ICs combo I had. If I told you the LSi9 was capable of sound "harsh/edgy" and you'd heard that speaker before elsewhere, you'd tell me I was nuts... but with those cables, that's what I got. So then I picked up a used set of unknown used ICs to try for $35 from a fellow on the Polk Forum, as the seller indicated these cables had a laid back presentation, so that sounded like a good solution. Well, while the dgyness/harshness was surely gone, those seemed to push the sound stage way to the back, behind the speaker and just made the whole thing sound very sleepy. I wasn't happy. However, the key finding from this test was: Cables, the ICs in this example, made a difference! I then called up AudioAdvisor and asked for a rec. They advised I replace the monoprice/sidewinder combo with an AudioQuest Type-4/ Blue II ICs something or other... $240 later... sound was a LOT closer to what I thought I should hear, but still even this sounded kind of thin... tin-can thin... BAH! Then I decided to do my own homework, did a sh*t load of research and came across these MIT EXPII ICs. I kid you not, I plugged them in and with no adjustments at all the sound was "normal". All thinning/edginess side effects were gone, but presentation also not recessed like with the unknown used set of IC cables.

Anyway, while I'm no expert, I've played in the sandbox for about a decade now. If you guys are out to convince me cables make no audible difference... please save your time for more productive conversations... I do appreciate your input though.