Upgrade from Outlaw 975?!

[PENG]

Expectation bias. It's real and it's difficult to defeat!

In my field, I often have someone else go review results and data. Sometimes on critical samples, I don't even process them because I know exactly what to expect and that can easily bias how I prep samples or how I interpret results!

And, when I draw conclusions based on analytical results, I make my conclusion but I ask my colleagues, "what does this data tell us" without first stating my conclusion--All because I do not want to bias their judgment.

3rd party review and analysis is always a good idea. Someone that has nothing to gain or lose dependent upon the results.

Expectation bias, subjective review and not properly conducted comparison listening sessions = the one that costs more for the same or less win in any subjective reviews by professional reviewers and owners at least 90% of the time regardless of facts and test data. That's just my two cents from years of experience in this hobby.

 

[PENG]

Anyway, while I'm no expert, I've played in the sandbox for about a decade now. If you guys are out to convince me cables make no audible difference... please save your time for more productive conversations... I do appreciate your input though.

Fair enough, in that case I can only comment on the A21 because I have one. I will comment on your class D and preamp question too, but on in general terms. I found the A21 is just a neutral high quality power amp, nothing special about it. I also know a well designed class D amp can sound transparent as I have auditioned Bel Canto's a few times and the first time I didn't even know it was class D. Any Classé class AB amps will have better build quality than the A21, but won't sound different in properly conducted comparison listening with bias are removed. I have never listen to any of the class D Classé amps so I can only assume they too will be better built than the Halo amps.

So between the two, I would keep the AM2 if form factor, weight and heat are important factors. For values only, I would keep the A21. On the preamp side, from my experience (still own a few), once expectation bias is removed, you can pick one based on specs, just to make sure it can drive the power amp to rated output with room to spare. None of this may help you though, if you are one of those people who can hear the kind of difference in SQ as mentioned in post# 20, between ICs.

 

[lietuvis91]

Fair enough, in that case I can only comment on the A21 because I have one. I will comment on your class D and preamp question too, but on in general terms. I found the A21 is just a neutral high quality power amp, nothing special about it. I also know a well designed class D amp can sound transparent as I have auditioned Bel Canto's a few times and the first time I didn't even know it was class D. Any Classé class AB amps will have better build quality than the A21, but won't sound different in properly conducted comparison listening with bias are removed. I have never listen to any of the class D Classé amps so I can only assume they too will be better built than the Halo amps.

So between the two, I would keep the AM2 if form factor, weight and heat are important factors. For values only, I would keep the A21. On the preamp side, from my experience (still own a few), once expectation bias is removed, you can pick one based on specs, just to make sure it can drive the power amp to rated output with room to spare. None of this may help you though, if you are one of those people who can hear the kind of difference in SQ as mentioned in post# 20, between ICs.

Appreciate your input.

Your comments are very interesting and in some respects, reassuring. I totally agree with you regarding the A21. Fantastic amp and the best AB amp I have owned so far for sure. If I can make it work size wise in the new place, I will likely keep it.

I must say I find this comment of yours intriguing:
"I found the A21 is just a neutral high quality power amp, nothing special about it. Any Classé class AB amps will have better build quality than the A21, but won't sound different in properly conducted comparison listening with bias are removed"

Are you insinuating that all quality AB amps sound alike? Since that hasn't been my experience, I will wait for your response before I comment further.

I think you're correct with your comparison of A21 to the Classe Sigma AMP2, which is class D. Comparatively, the Classe is amazingly transparent. There's now so much detail in the sound, it almost seems mechanical. I can finally make out the words in certain songs that I never knew the lyrics to, lol. This amp has been quite a different listening experience than with the A21. The sound of the A21 paired with the LSi9s was very inviting and engulfing, like a soothing warm blanket, and very musical. The Classe AMP2 presents the details, with lots of separation between all the voices and instruments, but maybe not as fluid and smooth, and I would say overall somewhat less musical. Anyway, just a very different listening experience between those two. Night and day really...

 

[lietuvis91]

No brand name stuff really, maybe some Mediabridge stuff, some Belden stock, usually more generic than anything with my own connectors. I've made my own for the last few years except hdmi or optical. Here's a balanced minidsp 2x4 box with rca/phoenix and xlr/phoenix connectors I put together for example (using Belden coax stock in this case):
View attachment 20039

Ok, that's interesting. I can certainly agree that self made cables can be the best bang for the buck for most audiophiles, so long as quality components are used in the construction. Makes sense to me.

Have you compared these to brand name stuff?

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok, that's interesting. I can certainly agree that self made cables can be the best bang for the buck for most audiophiles, so long as quality components are used in the construction. Makes sense to me.

Have you compared these to brand name stuff?

Why would I? Comparing good cables is about the biggest waste of time I can think of.

 

[PENG]

Are you insinuating that all quality AB amps sound alike? Since that hasn't been my experience, I will wait for your response before I comment further.

My exposure to Classé amps sound were in show rooms and have never audition any of their class Ds. Yes, I do find most high quality class AB, even class A amps sound alike. I am not saying they all sound exactly the same but just "alike" enough that in most cases I won't be able to tell the difference in AB comparison sessions. I typically listen to SPL average between 70 and 80 and mostly jazz and classical music. The average power is typically below 0.5W with peaks up to 20W, may be up to 40W if I have much faster response metering capability to catch the very short bursts. So basically even on the power side, the A21 makes no difference for me when compared to my very old AVR. As I mentioned before, my listening experience seems supported by the freq response and distortions plots using REW. Once level matched, the graphs simply lay almost exactly on top of each other, making them look like one graph. Yet, if I move the speaker even a few inches, I will get a different graph. To me, if I can hear a difference, that difference should be detectable by existing measuring instruments and protocols.

Obviously there are no shortage of people who experienced hearing differences between good quality AB amps and even at low SPL when the amps are operating well below their power output limits. We have multiple threads on this and similar topics, but I assume you know that already.

 

[j_garcia]

I've listened to a lot of different amps and I felt it depended on the speakers more whether or not a given amp made a difference. I own one class A amp and it did have a slightly smoother sound to it, but more or less still sounded the same as all my other AB amps, especially at lower listening levels. I've heard Classe amps with B&Ws in a nice showroom and thought it sounded great, but I've heard the B&Ws with other amps and didn't feel they were missing anything.