Gotta Make You Wonder

[killdozzer]

In looking around found this list, number one is way more than that Clearaudio.... All seem more about the owner's masculinity than anything else

To me they all look so damn ugly I would be ashamed to let anyone into my house and would probably be checking constantly whether their gaze chances upon my groins one time too many.

However, this little charmer has it all (for me that is):

 

[sterling shoote]

It could well sound a lot worse. A lot of these turntables are designed and built by unbalanced lunatics. They concentrate on one issue which may or may not be significant and often badly and stupidly design core functions. They look fancy though.

You are using what I think was the best phono cartridge ever made. I really don't believe there has been a better one before or since. I think you paid a bit more than you said though, as I don't remember those cartridges selling for less than $500 and they were more than that at the end of the run. Optimal arm is the SME series III which was designed to be synergistic with the Shire V 15 series.

To be honest I don't think you can get better than a Shure V 15 xmr in an SME series III arm on a good turntable like a Thorens TD 125. I don't think you will best that no matter how much you spend.

Shure V15 xmr on SME Series III arm.

I don't have the experience you have on the subject; but, I started this thread with the assumption that at some price point short of $170,000 I could get a turntable/cartridge which would retrieve/deliver all that's in the groove. Maybe your listed outfit is such a device. Of course, I can't get a stylus for my Shure today so this is what made me think about perhaps a new cartridge and turntable. What comes to mind is the Ortofon 2M Black and a Technics SL-1200GR. The Technics turntable has an arm height adjustment feature which will accommodate the Ortofon cartridge. My Sony turntable does not have such an adjustment feature and I don't know that I could modify it with spacers.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't have the experience you have on the subject; but, I started this thread with the assumption that at some price point short of $170,000 I could get a turntable/cartridge which would retrieve/deliver all that's in the groove. Maybe your listed outfit is such a device. Of course, I can't get a stylus for my Shure today so this is what made me think about perhaps a new cartridge and turntable. What comes to mind is the Ortofon 2M Black and a Technics SL-1200GR. The Technics turntable has an arm height adjustment feature which will accommodate the Ortofon cartridge. My Sony turntable does not have such an adjustment feature and I don't know that I could modify it with spacers.

No JICO replacements for that cart?

 

[sterling shoote]

No JICO replacements for that cart?

Yes, it appears there is a JICO stylus for my cartridge. Do you think it would retrieve like my stylus, you know, the details?

 

[3db]

killdozzer
I love topics like this one because there isn't a technically correct answer and a generally accepted incorrect answer. This puts it squarely in the realm of personal preference and subjectivity.

Just so we are clear, my reply was not subjective but factual with no indication for personal preference which puts it squarely into the realm of objectivity.

Killdozzer, from the all digital point of view a TT is a device where you take a piece of rock, tie it to something called a tonearm, drop that rock on to a spinning piece of plastic, and let that rock drag through some grooves cut in to the plastic. If everything lines up ok, that rock will scratch against the plastic and make some noise. Then a miracle occurs, and sound comes out your speakers.

Believe it or not, there are audio enthusiasts who love it this way. I added a new TT back in to my system last year. I hadn't used a TT in so long I don't even remember when I used one last. I rather enjoy the experience using a TT rather than saying I prefer the sound of a TT. I have nothing negative to say about a new TT spinning new vinyl. I grew up doing that. But for what I listen to day in and day out, I prefer the all digital stuff.I will not argue against your personal preference. That is your choice.

I do have a problem of how you over simplify the engineering behind a solid turntable. There is far more physics involved with a turntable than you apparently realize having to marry both very low level voltages with mechanical vibration of materials into a unit that performs consistently well. For starters, there is the whole tonearm/cartridge compatability issue as decribed in the link below.

http://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/tonearm-cartridge-compatability/

Thats just one aspect.. Then there's tracking and alignment issues so that the stylus sits perpendicular into the record groove for the entire record without being forced to one side of the groove wall. Thats just two of the biggest issues designers face but there are many more.

Its a wonder that entry level turntables produced today sound as good as they do.

Now as far as digital verses analog goes... it really depends on the talent behind the mastering of the recordings for I own many albums in both formats where analog clobbers the CD and other albums were the CD clobbers the vinyl.

I find broad sweeping statements of personal preferences used in an attempt to support an arguement distasteful.

No harm no foul to the TT enthusiasts. I get it.

I will not argue against your personal preference. That is your choice.

I do have a problem of how you over simplify the engineering behind a solid turntable. There is far more physics involved with a turntable than you apparently realize having to marry both very low level voltages with mechanical vibration of materials into a unit that performs consistently well. For starters, there is the whole tonearm/cartridge compatability issue as decribed in the link below.

http://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/tonearm-cartridge-compatability/

Thats just one aspect.. Then there's tracking and alignment issues so that the stylus sits perpendicular into the record groove for the entire record without being forced to one side of the groove wall. Thats just two of the biggest issues designers face but there are many more.

Its a wonder that entry level turntables produced today sound as good as they do given their budget.

Now as far as digital verses analog goes... it really depends on the talent behind the mastering of the recordings for I own many albums in both formats where analog clobbers the CD and other albums were the CD clobbers the vinyl.

I find broad sweeping statements of personal preferences used in an attempt to support an arguement distasteful.

 

[3db]

From some reading I've done on that point apparently some phono stages may dispose with the extraneous noises better than others, doubt it's just the cartridge/stylus having as much effect in this regard. I've not had great differences in surface noise on many different cartridges, all just highly competent, not particularly high end like in the thousands of dollars range which would freak me out just using such, I could easily bump the arm and send it skittering across the record!

I'm not say every cartrige swap would result in improved noise reduction.Again, that has to to with the stylus tip being supplied with the cartridge. The cartridge swap I performed was an entry level Ortofon to an Ortofon 2M Red which is one or two steps in quality above the one I swapped out. I subsequently played an album I bought used shifted the noise levels from untolerable to tolerable. Other albums seemed to play with a little less background noise.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm not say every cartrige swap would result in improved noise reduction.Again, that has to to with the stylus tip being supplied with the cartridge. The cartridge swap I performed was an entry level Ortofon to an Ortofon 2M Red which is one or two steps in quality above the one I swapped out. I subsequently played an album I bought used shifted the noise levels from untolerable to tolerable. Other albums seemed to play with a little less background noise.

I've not had a noticeable difference in surface noise between cartridges but I haven't used entry level cartridges from the 6 or so brands I've used either, but not their most expensive either....

 

[killdozzer]

so that the stylus sits perpendicular into the record groove for the entire record without being forced to one side of the groove wall.

This also bends my mind a little. I can only imagine a moving head shell as a solution (other than tangential tonearms). I mean it's physics again; if stemming from one point the tone arm will change the angle as it approaches the last song. It will always be hit harder on the inner side (inner being closer to the center of the record) and forced just a little bit more to the opposite. Even J and S shapes. Is there such a thing as a moving head shell - moving in such a way as if it was nodding a "no" answer?

 

[lovinthehd]

This also bends my mind a little. I can only imagine a moving head shell as a solution (other than tangential tonearms). I mean it's physics again; if stemming from one point the tone arm will change the angle as it approaches the last song. It will always be hit harder on the inner side (inner being closer to the center of the record) and forced just a little bit more to the opposite. Even J and S shapes. Is there such a thing as a moving head shell - moving in such a way as if it was nodding a "no" answer?

Gerrard used to have something like that.....

 

[TLS Guy]

No JICO replacements for that cart?

A JICO stylus will not give original performance, not close. It is not Beryllium but aluminum.

 

[TLS Guy]

This also bends my mind a little. I can only imagine a moving head shell as a solution (other than tangential tonearms). I mean it's physics again; if stemming from one point the tone arm will change the angle as it approaches the last song. It will always be hit harder on the inner side (inner being closer to the center of the record) and forced just a little bit more to the opposite. Even J and S shapes. Is there such a thing as a moving head shell - moving in such a way as if it was nodding a "no" answer?

If you set it up properly there will be tow nulls of zero tracking error one on the inside grooves, which is most critical and an insignificant error on the outside of the disc. No need for contraptions designed by people who wandered in from the bicycle industry.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, it appears there is a JICO stylus for my cartridge. Do you think it would retrieve like my stylus, you know, the details?

Have no idea, always have purchased original replacement styli. However I have seen some good comments about JICO replacement styli, and some not so good, but customers seem to like it here but at the Jico site says no product matching search for the cart (Shure V-15 V-MR is what I took from your original post) so can't see if its aluminum or beryllium or....

 

[lovinthehd]

If you set it up properly there will be tow nulls of zero tracking error one on the inside grooves, which is most critical and an insignificant error on the outside of the disc. No need for contraptions designed by people who wandered in from the bicycle industry.

LOL as opposed to the current crop of guys making turntables that "are designed and built by unbalanced lunatics" someone from the bike industry would probably be a breath of fresh air and needed knowledge....plus way better carbon fiber stuff than the current lunatics

 

[TLS Guy]

Have no idea, always have purchased original replacement styli. However I have seen some good comments about JICO replacement styli, and some not so good, but customers seem to like it here but at the Jico site says no product matching search for the cart (Shure V-15 V-MR is what I took from your original post) so can't see if its aluminum or beryllium or....

I would never use one of these in my turntables. I have four turntables in use now, three of them use the SHure V 15xMR. As soon as Shure announced the end ofproduction, I bought a spare cartridge, which is still unopened and I stocked up on original styli. So I think I'm set. The JICO is built of different materials and the cartridge can not possibly sound the same with the JICO.

If you want a genuine replacement, then you will have to pay hundreds of dollars for one on eBay. They do keep coming up.

If you have a V 15xMR then if you don't want to pay for a replacement stylus your best bet is an Ortofon Black. However I know no cartridge with the ruler flat frequency response and compliance that the Shure was renowned for.

The late John Gilbert a noted reviewer who tested cartridges and published data said, "If you know a better hole go to it. I don't!"

 

[lovinthehd]

I would never use one of these in my turntables. I have four turntables in use now, three of them use the SHure V 15xMR. As soon as Shure announced the end ofproduction, I bought a spare cartridge, which is still unopened and I stocked up on original styli. So I think I'm set. The JICO is built of different materials and the cartridge can not possibly sound the same with the JICO.

If you want a genuine replacement, then you will have to pay hundreds of dollars for one on eBay. They do keep coming up.

If you have a V 15xMR then if you don't want to pay for a replacement stylus your best bet is an Ortofon Black. However I know no cartridge with the ruler flat frequency response and compliance that the Shure was renowned for.

The late John Gilbert a noted reviewer who tested cartridges and published data said, "If you know a better hole go to it. I don't!"

What's the difference between a V-15 V-MR and the xMR?

 

[TLS Guy]

LOL as opposed to the current crop of guys making turntables that "are designed and built by unbalanced lunatics" someone from the bike industry would probably be a breath of fresh air and needed knowledge....plus way better carbon fiber stuff than the current lunatics

That is old news. Here is the Thorens TD 125 MK II with an SME series III with Shure V 15xMR

The head shell is carbon fiber, and so is all the mounting hardware. There is an elegant way of decoupling the cartridge from the shell. What SME call the carrying arm is Titanium. The base is made of carbon fiber, and contains lead weights, which can be added and removed to match to the cartridge. All the adjustment knobs have the feel of "Rolls Royce" quality. Bearings are knife edge agate. There is an elegant silicone bath damper. There are a variety of bath paddles to match cartridge weight and compliance. All is beautifully made and machined.

I know of no other arms apart from SME that can be so carefully matched to the specs of the cartridge. All of these details matter and make for a product that hits LP reproduction right out of the park.

I don't think LP reproduction can be meaningfully improved over a rig like that.

 

[lovinthehd]

That is old news. Here is the Thorens TD 125 MK II with an SME series III with Shure V 15xMR

The head shell is carbon fiber, and so is all the mounting hardware. There is an elegant way of decoupling the cartridge from the shell. What SME call the carrying arm is Titanium. The base is made of carbon fiber, and contains lead weights, which can be added and removed to match to the cartridge. All the adjustment knobs have the feel of "Rolls Royce" quality. Bearings are knife edge agate. There is an elegant silicone bath damper. There are a variety of bath paddles to match cartridge weight and compliance. All is beautifully made and machined.

I know of no other arms apart from SME that can be so carefully matched to the specs of the cartridge. All of these details matter and make for a product that hits LP reproduction right out of the park.

I don't think LP reproduction can be meaningfully improved over a rig like that.

LOL I used to drool over SME arms at one point but could never justify the cost. How are their complete tt's?

 

[TLS Guy]

What's the difference between a V-15 V-MR and the xMR?

The xMR actually has the flatter response, although it is alleged to be rolled off. This is another problem with LP reproduction. The capacitance of the wiring and preamp input are critical.
The xmr requires a very low capacitance load or it will roll off.

The SME cables to the pre amp are ultra low capacitance. The base wiring is covered in a screened removable metal tube with RCA sockets above. It is an easy matter to solder just the right value capacitance across the RCA socket terminals. SME assumes a level of competence from the owner and dealer, especially the former. In addition Quad preamps have methods of also perfectly matching the cartridge. This is why I use Quad preamps from the LP hey day for LP reproduction. With SME and Quad you can optimize any cartridge. These matters are NOT trivial and I'm sure not on the radar screen of the guy who designed that $170,000 turntable.

 

[TLS Guy]

LOL I used to drool over SME arms at one point but could never justify the cost. How are their complete tt's?

They are excellent and beautifully made, but very expensive. Back in the the day when I acquired all my LP gear, SME only made pick up arms. I think they got into the total package as turntables without arms or arms you could change became increasingly uncommon as the population grew more and more incompetent. Only the Thorens TD 125 came on a plinth, no arm. The two Garrard 301s and the Thorens TD 150 just came as turntables, no plinth or arm. Almost all the Garrard 301 production was sold like that.

Now if you want an all in one package and want the best available LP reproduction money can buy, then it probably does require that you purchase an SME turntable.

 

[sterling shoote]

They are excellent and beautifully made, but very expensive. Back in the the day when I acquired all my LP gear, SME only made pick up arms. I think they got into the total package as turntables without arms or arms you could change became increasingly uncommon as the population grew more and more incompetent. Only the Thorens TD 125 came on a plinth, no arm. The two Garrard 301s and the Thorens TD 150 just came as turntables, no plinth or arm. Almost all the Garrard 301 production was sold like that.

Now if you want an all in one package and want the best available LP reproduction money can buy, then it probably does require that you purchase an SME turntable.

SME has an offering today, the model 10 turntable with model 10 arm, selling for about $6000.00. It's their least expensive outfit too, 6 times less expensive than their top-of-the-line turntable/arm outfit.