center channel sound

[edee_em]

Do I need a new center speaker or does the center sound track in the Star Wars Blu-ray (Ep. I to VI) sound that bad? Not to offend anyone or any particular sound engineer(s), but I noticed a normally well-functioning (not great) center sounding pretty awful when watching Star Wars. A second question does arise, given the tech advancements in speakers, what are the advancements made from the traditional MTM set up and have the early issues with that set up been corrected? Thanks.

 

[lovinthehd]

You'll have to expand a bit on what you've got now and how you set it up....MTM is just a center speaker compromise to fit under/over a tv. You can always just use a third speaker same as your L/R....if you can fit it.

 

[edee_em]

You'll have to expand a bit on what you've got now and how you set it up....MTM is just a center speaker compromise to fit under/over a tv. You can always just use a third speaker same as your L/R....if you can fit it.

Thanks for the response.

Most of my set up decisions are dictated by room setup. My center and rears are Sound Dynamics with Altec Lansing fronts. They are from the 1990s!! I don't use a sub. My AVR is a Yamaha rx-v577. The center is below the tv and the tv is on the wall over a shelf unit. This puts the center about 18" above the top of the fronts.

I'm guessing you didn't have an issue with the sound quality of the SW movies?

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the response.

Most of my set up decisions are dictated by room setup. My center and rears are Sound Dynamics with Altec Lansing fronts. They are from the 1990s!! I don't use a sub. My AVR is a Yamaha rx-v577. The center is below the tv and the tv is on the wall over a shelf unit. This puts the center about 18" above the top of the fronts.

I'm guessing you didn't have an issue with the sound quality of the SW movies?

Never heard of Sound Dynamic brand....what model speakers are your speakers? Brand names don't convey much alone....

Did you use YPAO to set this up? Is your center angled to your listening position? Is the center sitting back from the edge of the shelf it's sitting on?

I've never had any particular audio issues with the SW series except for dumb dialog Audio generally pretty good IME altho I don't have the bluray set.

 

[edee_em]

Never heard of Sound Dynamic brand....what model speakers are your speakers? Brand names don't convey much alone....

Did you use YPAO to set this up? Is your center angled to your listening position? Is the center sitting back from the edge of the shelf it's sitting on?

I've never had any particular audio issues with the SW series except for dumb dialog Audio generally pretty good IME altho I don't have the bluray set.

Canadian brand that was pretty interesting back in the 1990s, as mentioned. Model is Cinecenter-R. Budget speaker, at best, but did a good job. I did run the YPAO.

To be honest with myself, this speaker needs to be replaced. I took the grill off and it only has 2 4" mids and a 1" tweeter in the least preferred MTM setup. There are two ports, one at each end.

I think you hit on something important as to how the center is placed. It is at the back of the shelf so that it sits directly under the TV, which is wall mounted. It is not angled in any way. I am going to try moving it out to the edge of the shelf and angling it down. I am also thinking about raising the front speakers up to the center level. Is that an issue with speaker set up? Should they be on the same plane? The way it is right now, the two fronts are lower than the center.

 

[yepimonfire]

Canadian brand that was pretty interesting back in the 1990s, as mentioned. Model is Cinecenter-R. Budget speaker, at best, but did a good job. I did run the YPAO.

To be honest with myself, this speaker needs to be replaced. I took the grill off and it only has 2 4" mids and a 1" tweeter in the least preferred MTM setup. There are two ports, one at each end.

I think you hit on something important as to how the center is placed. It is at the back of the shelf so that it sits directly under the TV, which is wall mounted. It is not angled in any way. I am going to try moving it out to the edge of the shelf and angling it down. I am also thinking about raising the front speakers up to the center level. Is that an issue with speaker set up? Should they be on the same plane? The way it is right now, the two fronts are lower than the center.

I think you are confused. Driver size has nothing to do with how good a speaker sounds. It might affect bass and sensitivity but there are always exceptions to this rule. Why do you say an MTM design is the least preferred? I can think of a lot of other reasons to replace that speaker other than driver size and configuration. Modern speakers are light years ahead of older designs. We can use computers to design them, to determine what materials to use and how they will behave, etc. Any new set of speakers, even budget speakers, would probably out perform what you are using now. I also noticed the surrounds are made of foam. Considering the age, I would suspect it is only a matter of time before foam rot begins to set in.

Starwars has extremely good audio, it is THX certified after all. If you are having trouble hearing dialog there are one of two culprits, your hearing, or your speakers. If you aren't using a sub, are you at least using full range fronts and crossing the other smaller speakers over? You should also really be using timbre matched fronts.

 

[edee_em]

I think you are confused. Driver size has nothing to do with how good a speaker sounds. It might affect bass and sensitivity but there are always exceptions to this rule. Why do you say an MTM design is the least preferred? I can think of a lot of other reasons to replace that speaker other than driver size and configuration.

Starwars has extremely good audio, it is THX certified after all. If you are having trouble hearing dialog there are one of two culprits, your hearing, or your speakers. If you aren't using a sub, are you at least using full range fronts and crossing the other smaller speakers over? You should also really be using timbre matched fronts.

Thanks for the reply, yepimonfire. Not to get into an argument because I sense you know more than I do (please see nickname under my username), everything I have read, and I mean everything including articles on this website, have said that the horizontal MTM suffers from loping and cancelling. I don't know what any of that means but I do know that it is not good. Perhaps this was an issue of the past and newer designs have addressed that issue? That is what I want to know.

My comment about the driver size is made in relation to a lot of center speakers I see advertised: you just don't see smallish mids and bass drivers. That's all. I liked the sound of this center for many years. Size of driver never entered into my mind. I only ask this now, after almost 20 years of use, because the Star Wars dialogue coming through that center really sounded muddled compared to everything else I have been listening to. And, my hearing is not the issue ("My mother had me tested.")

So, the speakers may be the issue. Yes, the fronts have a good range. Don't know the exact specs but the ear test tells me there's enough bass (for my taste) to make a sub unnecessary. As far as "crossing the other smaller speakers over", I assumed YPAO would have handled that and, if not, I would be willing to listen on how to do that.

Finally, yes yepimonfire, I am confused. That's why I ask questions.

 

[KenM10759]

The drivers on my KEF R200c center speaker are 1" aluminum dome tweeter, 5" midrange and twin 5-1/4" woofers. It sounds beautiful, so smooth. No lobing with the coincident Uni-Q HF-Mid driver!

On my secondary system, the Logan Martin Motion C has a 1" x 1-1/4" folded motion ribbon tweeter and twin 4" mid-LF drivers. Those are pretty small but they work fairly good. I don't expect much for the $100 I paid, so it's acceptable.

The Bluesound Pulse Soundbar my sister has is equipped with a 3/4" soft dome tweeter, twin 2" paper cone mids, and two 4" paper cone woofers. That thing is shocking in how low it really goes! The technology built into that product is what makes it work so well, not the size of the drivers.

 

[edee_em]

The drivers on my KEF R200c center speaker are 1" aluminum dome tweeter, 5" midrange and twin 5-1/4" woofers. It sounds beautiful, so smooth. No lobing with the coincident Uni-Q HF-Mid driver!

On my secondary system, the Logan Martin Motion C has a 1" x 1-1/4" folded motion ribbon tweeter and twin 4" mid-LF drivers. Those are pretty small but they work fairly good. I don't expect much for the $100 I paid, so it's acceptable.

The Bluesound Pulse Soundbar my sister has is equipped with a 3/4" soft dome tweeter, twin 2" paper cone mids, and two 4" paper cone woofers. That thing is shocking in how low it really goes! The technology built into that product is what makes it work so well, not the size of the drivers.

Thanks for the reply Ken. I get that the size of the driver isn't the end-all and be-all of making my decision. Sometimes I am amazed at the sound I get from my Samsung headphones (ones that came with the phone), especially when streaming higher bitrate content from some sites. Can't get any smaller than that! I did notice in your response that there seems to be a correlation between an increase in the number of drivers and an increase in the quality of sound.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

You should bring the center in front and angle it to point your ear level in listening position. For your mains it would be best to have tweeters on ear level. If the center still sounds bad it is possible that the speaker surrounds have gone bad and needs to be replaced.

 

[edee_em]

You should bring the center in front and angle it to point your ear level in listening position. For your mains it would be best to have tweeters on ear level. If the center still sounds bad it is possible that the speaker surrounds have gone bad and needs to be replaced.

Thanks for the tips. It makes sense to direct the tweeters to ear level. Noticed you have the same center (Kef R200c) as KenM10759 (replied earlier). Do you agree with his sentiment about the sound quality?

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Thanks for the tips. It makes sense to direct the tweeters to ear level. Noticed you have the same center (Kef R200c) as KenM10759 (replied earlier). Do you agree with his sentiment about the sound quality?

It is a great center, but I would say it is more important to have matched center for your front speakers to have better balance in sound.

 

[yepimonfire]

Thanks for the reply, yepimonfire. Not to get into an argument because I sense you know more than I do (please see nickname under my username), everything I have read, and I mean everything including articles on this website, have said that the horizontal MTM suffers from loping and cancelling. I don't know what any of that means but I do know that it is not good. Perhaps this was an issue of the past and newer designs have addressed that issue? That is what I want to know.

My comment about the driver size is made in relation to a lot of center speakers I see advertised: you just don't see smallish mids and bass drivers. That's all. I liked the sound of this center for many years. Size of driver never entered into my mind. I only ask this now, after almost 20 years of use, because the Star Wars dialogue coming through that center really sounded muddled compared to everything else I have been listening to. And, my hearing is not the issue ("My mother had me tested.")

So, the speakers may be the issue. Yes, the fronts have a good range. Don't know the exact specs but the ear test tells me there's enough bass (for my taste) to make a sub unnecessary. As far as "crossing the other smaller speakers over", I assumed YPAO would have handled that and, if not, I would be willing to listen on how to do that.

Finally, yes yepimonfire, I am confused. That's why I ask questions.

The only way lobing and comb filtering would occur is up the speaker or crossover were improperly designed or implemented. Too high of a crossover point, a large distance between the drivers, or a lack of a low pass on the woofers would cause comb filtering and bad off axis response, lots of speakers have phase issues at the crossover point, and a properly designed crossover should compensate for this. My klipsch center channel is an mtm and it sounds fine on and off axis, since we know little about the speaker you're using we can't say whether it's designed poorly or not.

Also, if you're 100% happy with the bass, that's fine, but you can't miss what you've not experienced. Unless your speakers have a - 3dB frequency response down to at least 30hz, you're likely missing a lot. If they're ported and the tuning frequency is above 30hz you're also likely wasting massive amounts of amplifier power by sending frequencies to the fronts where impedance has taken a nose dive.

 

[edee_em]

The only way lobing and comb filtering would occur is up the speaker or crossover were improperly designed or implemented. Too high of a crossover point, a large distance between the drivers, or a lack of a low pass on the woofers would cause comb filtering and bad off axis response, lots of speakers have phase issues at the crossover point, and a properly designed crossover should compensate for this. My klipsch center channel is an mtm and it sounds fine on and off axis, since we know little about the speaker you're using we can't say whether it's designed poorly or not.

Also, if you're 100% happy with the bass, that's fine, but you can't miss what you've not experienced. Unless your speakers have a - 3dB frequency response down to at least 30hz, you're likely missing a lot. If they're ported and the tuning frequency is above 30hz you're also likely wasting massive amounts of amplifier power by sending frequencies to the fronts where impedance has taken a nose dive.

This is an old speaker. The only thing I was able to find out is that Klipsch bought the company back in the day. I have not seen any reference to them by Klipsch. Being aged, I agree with your sentiment about the design and crossover issues. I also agree with the fronts matching the center. It is time for a new speaker set-up! PS: Can I show my wife your thoughts to help convince her????