Why are there so few internal photos of A/V receivers?

[Audioholic72]

One thing I've noticed when looking around at all the audio gear online, most of the better 2-channel stuff, the integrated amps, CD players, etc. have lots of nice internal shots of them showing the build, guts, etc. but internal photos of A/V receivers are not so easy to come by.

What is it that they are hiding? Even groups like this which does a lot of rigorous testing don't routinely show the internals of A/V receivers very often. Judging from the few that I've seen I can see why. Most of them don't look very nice, at least not the lower to mid level units. I'm not an engineer, but it doesn't take a degree to see the qualitative differences between this Yamaha A-S501 integrated amp and Yamaha RX-V681 A/V receiver.

The A-S501, by no means an expensive, high-end integrated, looks clean and nicely laid out, with nice, thick, dual heat sinks. While the RX-V681 looks sloppy and congested, with a single, thin, cheap heat sink and a noticeably cheaper looking EI transformer. Both units retail for around the same price.

My question is, why can't they make the AVR's more like the integrateds? Or better yet, why not make the integrateds more like an AVR? There is plenty of room in the A-S501 for the extras. It is actually a larger, heavier unit then the RX-V681. You don't need to put any silly surround-sound modes in it that no one ever uses or networking features as these can all be handled through your TV, Blu-Ray player, Amazon Fire, Roku, etc. Instead, why not focus on better overall quality?

Of course, then it would no longer be a 2-channel integrated amp but my question is why is it acceptable in the industry to cheapen out like this on an AVR but not for the integrateds? Why is there so little demand for better quality?

These AVR's keep getting cheaper and cheaper as the years go by bordering on the ridiculous, and it's not just the internals but the whole package. It's almost to the point where it's not even really worth buying any but the very top end models. All of them, regardless of brand, look about the same on the inside, with the same cheap, crappy parts. Some of them, like the Sony's and Pioneer's aren't even rated for 4 ohms. The cheapest integrated in Yamaha's line up ($349) is rated for 4 ohms, as is all their other integrateds. I'm about to say the hell with this and just buy a good integrated and stay 2-channel. At least I won't have to worry about my A/V receiver fizzing out in about 1 to 2 years.

 

[KenM10759]

There will always be a diminishing focus on quality build as people buy on price first and corporations build on cost reduction to satisfy margins and hence, investors.

The truly high quality, innovative audio equipment will continue to get relatively more expensive to buy as sales volume suffers from price pressures.

Trends rule, and right now people seem to want low cost mobility of everything. That's where it's going, and is evident at all levels when you see legacy speaker and audio electronics companies pour most development money into cheap mobile devices. They gotta go where the money is being spent.

As for photos, I don't seem to have any trouble finding photos of the guts of either good or pedestrian amps, receivers, integrateds or AVR's if I go looking.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've also not had any problems finding pics, altho I don't go looking for them. I could also just take the covers off various pieces of gear I own but that isn't very interesting either. Mostly as at a glance I wouldn't know what I'm looking at.

Two channel separates (let alone those crummy all in one box integrateds ) I've got and don't use because they're not very useful with all the things I want to see/hear. YMMV.

 

[Audioholic72]

There will always be a diminishing focus on quality build as people buy on price first and corporations build on cost reduction to satisfy margins and hence, investors.

The truly high quality, innovative audio equipment will continue to get relatively more expensive to buy as sales volume suffers from price pressures.

Trends rule, and right now people seem to want low cost mobility of everything. That's where it's going, and is evident at all levels when you see legacy speaker and audio electronics companies pour most development money into cheap mobile devices. They gotta go where the money is being spent.

As for photos, I don't seem to have any trouble finding photos of the guts of either good or pedestrian amps, receivers, integrateds or AVR's if I go looking.

Sure, except AVR's are not mobile, nor should they be. If these people only want small little mobile gizmos, then they wouldn't be buying AVR's at all. There still is a need and a market for them, right? Doesn't anyone want a quality unit?

It seems the prices haven't gone down as much as the quality has. Technological advances notwithstanding, the AVR's of 10 to 15 years ago were certainly of better qaulity at or near the same price. We are not paying for the actual physical technology here, chips and things like that don't cost that much to make and look the same as any other chip. So where is the money going? It's not into the build quality, that's for sure.

Regarding the photos, 9 times out of ten if I want to see the inside of an average, mass-market AVR I have to go looking hard for it, and sometimes I come up empty handed. If you go looking for internal photos of the better 2-channel gear, they are everywhere, all over forums and on manufacturers websites. Internal photos of AVR's on manufacturers websites are rare. Sometimes they show a few partial photos of the most expensive models, but that's it. I can't be the only one who has noticed this. Why are these manufacturers not proud to show the insides of their AVR's?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Technological advances notwithstanding, the AVR's of 10 to 15 years ago were certainly of better quality at or near the same price.

Just out of curiosity, how are you judging relative quality?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Just out of curiosity, how are you judging relative quality?

Well, there COULD be some valuable information in internal photos, but better had pretty good idea what are they looking at. I was able to recognize a potential issue on new SVS PB16 sub's amp, but then again I am studied electricity,em & electronics in-depth as part of specialty HS program and have 3 years experience servicing night vision and laser equipment in military service.
In addition , few people around here are actual BA and BS EE's (include Gene). But I agree with Irv - most people would look at photos of internal boards and construction and see nothing.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Well, there COULD be some valuable information in internal photos, but better had pretty good idea what are they looking at. I was able to recognize a potential issue on new SVS PB16 sub's amp, but then again I am studied electricity,em & electronics in-depth as part of specialty HS program and have 3 years experience servicing night vision and laser equipment in military service.
In addition , few people around here are actual BA and BS EE's (include Gene). But I agree with Irv - most people would look at photos of internal boards and construction and see nothing.

Actually, I was only questioning Audioholic72's assertion, not the value of the photos. I happen to enjoy the photos, but I'm not convinced that the relative quality of AVRs (which was never very good, IMO) has gone downhill, so I was wondering what his criteria are.

I would, Audioholic72, recommend staying two channel, and going with a separate pre-pro and a dedicated power amp. Oh yeah, confession time, my name is Irv, and I'm an AVR hater.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Actually, I was only questioning Audioholic72's assertion, not the value of the photos. I happen to enjoy the photos, but I'm not convinced that the relative quality of AVRs (which was never very good, IMO) has gone downhill, so I was wondering what his criteria are.

I would, Audioholic72, recommend staying two channel, and going with a separate pre-pro and a dedicated power amp. Oh yeah, confession time, my name is Irv, and I'm an AVR hater.

Ah, I thought you're referring to photos. I also find sweeping statement of recent avrs improved quality troublesome and more likely to be false statement. They did shove more features every year, but quality is not necessarily one of them. In general simpler board with highly integrated SOC's replace larger boards, but drastic raise in complexity of such chip designs doesn't not guarantee higher quality.

 

[Audioholic72]

Just out of curiosity, how are you judging relative quality?

I'm judging overall quality. As I said I'm not an engineer but I can see that these AVR's are not at the same level internally as the better integrated 2-channel amps. They are also inferior externally as well.

I had to laugh when examining these units at Best Buy, with their light weight AND cheap plastic knobs. The knob of the Sony model I was looking at fell out into my hand after I barely pulled on it. The'yre also not even bothering to put a coaxial FM amtenna output on their AVR's anymore, with some ridiculous proprietary antenna hook up that doesn't work worth a damn. Are you kidding me? Why even include a FM/AM tuner at all? I would've rather had more quality go into other parts unit getting an FM/AM tuner like that. The front panel buttons also feel cheap, worse then their older units. Sony is not even putting metal face plates on their ES line anymore, only on the very top end models which are very pricey. The older ES line was certainly built better then these.

Not to single out Sony, but this poor quality trend with AVR's extends across the spectrum to other makes as well. A Pioneer Elite I owned sounded even worse then the Sony did. Neither could handle 4 ohms as far as I know, and I never could get the Pioneer app to work. What's the point? If this is their Elite model, I'd hate to see what their standard ones are like!

Both my Sony and Pioneer units had an audible buzz that I could hear all the way from my chair when the unit was on and no sound was playing. I'm never had a 2-Channel integrated or stereo receiver that did that. I don't know about you, but it seems to me a fundamental to want to reduce such noise coming from an amplifier as much as possible. We argue about things we supposedly can't hear all the time, but when we actually can hear something we shouldn't, this is acceptable?

If anyone thinks the overall mediocre quality of these AVR's doesn't also translate into mediocre sound quality and performance they are deluding themselves. A unit is only good as the sum of it's parts. You are right in that AVR's were never all that great in the first place but the older ones were built somewhat better. As primarily an audio enthusiast where video is of secondary importance, I just can't get excited about any of these AVR's. I'm trying to keep an open mind, and I do like some of the features and conveniences in them but I just don't think I will be happy in the long run as having an AVR as my primary amplifier.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm judging overall quality. As I said I'm not an engineer but I can see that these AVR's are not at the same level internally as the better integrated 2-channel amps. They are also inferior externally as well.

I had to laugh when examining these units at Best Buy, with their light weight AND cheap plastic knobs. The knob of the Sony model I was looking at fell out into my hand after I barely pulled on it. The'yre also not even bothering to put a coaxial FM amtenna output on their AVR's anymore, with some ridiculous proprietary antenna hook up that doesn't work worth a damn. Are you kidding me? Why even include a FM/AM tuner at all? I would've rather had more quality go into other parts unit getting an FM/AM tuner like that. The front panel buttons also feel cheap, worse then their older units. Sony is not even putting metal face plates on their ES line anymore, only on the very top end models which are very pricey. The older ES line was certainly built better then these.

Not to single out Sony, but this poor quality trend with AVR's extends across the spectrum to other makes as well. A Pioneer Elite I owned sounded even worse then the Sony did. Neither could handle 4 ohms as far as I know, and I never could get the Pioneer app to work. What's the point? If this is their Elite model, I'd hate to see what their standard ones are like!

Both my Sony and Pioneer units had an audible buzz that I could hear all the way from my chair when the unit was on and no sound was playing. I'm never had a 2-Channel integrated or stereo receiver that did that. I don't know about you, but it seems to me a fundamental to want to reduce such noise coming from an amplifier as much as possible. We argue about things we supposedly can't hear all the time, but when we actually can hear something we shouldn't, this is acceptable?

If anyone thinks the overall mediocre quality of these AVR's doesn't also translate into mediocre sound quality and performance they are deluding themselves. A unit is only good as the sum of it's parts. You are right in that AVR's were never all that great in the first place but the older ones were built somewhat better. As primarily an audio enthusiast where video is of secondary importance, I just can't get excited about any of these AVR's. I'm trying to keep an open mind, and I do like some of the features and conveniences in them but I just don't think I will be happy in the long run as having an AVR as my primary amplifier.

You seem to be judging these units mostly on mechanical issues, and I agree that everything about them is pretty cheap, even on the inside. Look at that flimsy heat sink in the AVR in the top photo. Your comment about buzzing means they probably have seriously cheap power transformers. Does that make them sound bad, audio-wise? I dunno. I would never have such crap in my house. Whenever people ask for me advice on HT systems, I tell them to forget surround sound, stick with two channels and one or more subs, and avoid AVRs. My advice usually isn't well-received.

 

[Audioholic72]

You seem to be judging these units mostly on mechanical issues, and I agree that everything about them is pretty cheap, even on the inside. Look at that flimsy heat sink in the AVR in the top photo. You comment about buzzing means they probably have seriously cheap power transformers. Does that make them sound bad, audio-wise? I dunno. I would never have such crap in my house. Whenever people ask for me advice on HT systems, I tell them to forget surround sound, stick with two channels and one or more subs, and avoid AVRs. My advice usually isn't well-received.

Your advice is well received by me, not that I already didn't know better anyway. I've decided not buying one of these things after all. I just bought the Yamaha A-S501.

There is nothing that I can't do with a modern Yamaha integrated that an AVR could do, except of course for multi-channel and the more advanced bass management, which I think is all over-rated anyway. I can still have all the network functions with a separate Blu-Ray player, smart TV, etc. and Bluetooth via the optional adapter and I will have an amplifier that looks better, sounds better and is built a hell of a lot better then an AVR.

 

[lovinthehd]

Your advice is well received by me, not that I already didn't know better anyway. I've decided not buying one of these things after all. I just bought the Yamaha A-S501.

There is nothing that I can't do with a modern Yamaha integrated that an AVR could do, except of course for multi-channel and the more advanced bass management, which I think is all over-rated anyway. I can still have all the network functions with a separate Blu-Ray player, smart TV, etc. and Bluetooth via the optional adapter and I will have an amplifier that looks better, sounds better and is built a hell of a lot better then an AVR.

How did you judge it sounds better?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

D&M keeps manufacturing top-end models in Japan. They cost arm and a leg, but they made from quality components and with better assembly and QC. Everything else is usually done by few ODMs in China.
(FIY: OEM's allow customers to brand their product. ODM allow customers to manufacture a product per customer's design and spec and then brand it. Like Foxconn is huge ODM for Apple
OEM=Original Equipment Manufacturer. ODM=Original Design Manufacturer)

OP does have few ideas right about showing the insides. Bad job on internal layout may indicate just as bad job on product's main function.
My point while few things are obvious, but to really understand what are you looking at - it requires good background in electronics. like this guy does:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/apc-bx1000-ups-backup-psu-tear-down,4766.html

 

[Audioholic72]

How did you judge it sounds better?

Through experience, trial and error, and because every single integrated amp I ever owned sounded better then every single AVR I ever owned.

 

[lovinthehd]

Through experience, trial and error, and because every single integrated amp I ever owned sounded better then every single AVR I ever owned.

So, in other words, you have no idea. Integrated amps don't have any special status in the world of audio IME/IMO, you really need to go separates to have good audio . Not my experience with electronics but you go right ahead and assume based on the box the electronics are in, or what shiny lights it has, or whatever your criteria is. I seriously doubt you could identify an integrated amp against other electronics simply based on their having a pre-amp/amp in a single box....my .02 and YMMV and all that....

 

[vsound5150]

The'yre also not even bothering to put a coaxial FM amtenna output on their AVR's anymore, with some ridiculous proprietary antenna hook up that doesn't work worth a damn. Are you kidding me? Why even include a FM/AM tuner at all? I would've rather had more quality go into other parts unit getting an FM/AM tuner like that.

I'm with you on this one it's like the tuner world came to a complete stop and the tuners have been completely ignored for any improvements.

Until I received my Marantz AVR which stated it has an HD Radio AM/FM tuner for superior sound quality. I thought it was all marketing bs hype but to my surprise the reception and sound quality is outstanding, I'm not sure what's inside the unit but they need to send me some internal pics so I don't have to open the unit. But I still have to tape the FM antenna wire to the wall lol old school is cool but this is pushing it.

 

[M Code]

D&M keeps manufacturing top-end models in Japan. They cost arm and a leg, but they made from quality components and with better assembly and QC. Everything else is usually done by few ODMs in China.

Incorrect..
Besides the flagship models for D&M, the other step-down models AVRs and amplifiers are built in Vietnam not China.... Primary reason for shifting from China to Vietnam, is that Vietnam has lower tariffs into the European market. Lower tariffs were projected for North America under the TPP bill but it appears that Trump is going to veto this. Also labor rates in Vietnam are 35% lower than China.

Just my $0.02...

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Incorrect..
Besides the flagship models for D&M, the other step-down models AVRs and amplifiers are built in Vietnam not China.... Primary reason for shifting from China to Vietnam, is that Vietnam has lower tariffs into the European market. Lower tariffs were projected for North America under the TPP bill but it appears that Trump is going to veto this. Also labor rates in Vietnam are 35% lower than China.

Just my $0.02...

Thank you mr pedantic

 

[vsound5150]

Out of curiosity I checked my SR7010 and sadly it's made in Vietnam, nothing wrong with Vietnam just wish it was made in Japan.

They should standardize the serial numbers like automobile VIN numbers if manufactured in different locations so we can choose which ones we want.

 

[M Code]

Thank you mr pedantic

U are welcome..