More POWER More Money?

[speakerman39]

Folks just curious as to why when it comes to power per se, why does it cost more for more power? If an amp say 100 watts RMS can be manufactured and priced at X amount, then why does it cost more to do the same with say 500 watts RMS? Now, I am not referring to component costs. You know bigger amps means more components, materials, and etc. In other words, does it really cost manufacturers that much more to build more powerful amps? Or, is it that they just charge more?

I have noticed that a 43" TV is cheaper than say a 48" and so on. But, does it really cost that much more to make a 48" TV when compared to a 43" TV all things being equal? The same goes with cable TV. The more channels you get the more it costs. Heck, even Sling TV does that as well. Once again, however, does it really cost Sling TV more to offer the extra channels even if you do not opt for them? It looks like to me that craving for "More" is being somewhat exploited and many are cashing in on it. Am I right? Or, basically is really does cost much more to build a more powerful amp? Just curious.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[slipperybidness]

Folks just curious as to why when it comes to power per se, why does it cost more for more power? If an amp say 100 watts RMS can be manufactured and priced at X amount, then why does it cost more to do the same with say 500 watts RMS? Now, I am not referring to component costs. You know bigger amps means more components, materials, and etc. In other words, does it really cost manufacturers that much more to build more powerful amps? Or, is it that they just charge more?

I have noticed that a 43" TV is cheaper than say a 48" and so on. But, does it really cost that much more to make a 48" TV when compared to a 43" TV all things being equal? The same goes with cable TV. The more channels you get the more it costs. Heck, even Sling TV does that as well. Once again, however, does it really cost Sling TV more to offer the extra channels even if you do not opt for them? It looks like to me that craving for "More" is being somewhat exploited and many are cashing in on it. Am I right? Or, basically is really does cost much more to build a more powerful amp? Just curious.

Cheers,

Phil

More power means you MUST have larger/more robust Power Transformers AND larger heat sinks (or fans, a poor choice in general). Of course, larger filter Capacitors are also more $.

In general, about 85% of the cost of an amp lies in the chassis, transformer, and heat sink. Everything else is 15% of the cost or less.

Large chunks of metal and copper wiring are not cheap!

For class A and Class AB amps, the larger chunks of metal are a must-have. For Class A--theoretical efficiency of 50% is obtainable in a push-pull topology, and only 25% in a single-ended topology

That is one of the biggest advantages of Class D amps. Since they are MUCH more efficient, you don't need the large transformers and heat sinks. This is absolutely one of the reasons that we are seeing more and more Class D amps on the market--you can only get the price down to a certain point with Class A or Class AB due to those transformers and heat sinks.

 

[speakerman39]

More power means you MUST have larger/more robust Power Transformers AND larger heat sinks (or fans, a poor choice in general). Of course, larger filter Capacitors are also more $.

In general, about 85% of the cost of an amp lies in the chassis, transformer, and heat sink. Everything else is 15% of the cost or less.

Large chunks of metal and copper wiring are not cheap!

For class A and Class AB amps, the larger chunks of metal are a must-have. For Class A--theoretical efficiency of 50% is obtainable in a push-pull topology, and only 25% in a single-ended topology

That is one of the biggest advantages of Class D amps. Since they are MUCH more efficient, you don't need the large transformers and heat sinks. This is absolutely one of the reasons that we are seeing more and more Class D amps on the market--you can only get the price down to a certain point with Class A or Class AB due to those transformers and heat sinks.

So, due to component costs beefier amps really do cost manufactures more to make. As such, more power means more money. Have read many times that Mosfets are very expensive. So, I guess it all makes sense then. Thanks!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[slipperybidness]

So, due to component costs beefier amps really do cost manufactures more to make. As such, more power means more money. Have read many times that Mosfets are very expensive. So, I guess it all makes sense then. Thanks!

Cheers,

Phil

In comparison to other parts of an amp, MOSFETS tend to be relatively cheap. Large Caps, Large Transformers, Large Heat Sinks, Chassis--that's where you end up spending the majority of the $.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-chipamp-project-thread.92513/

That is my latest amp build. Dunno why the pics aren't there any more!

This site may give you an idea of pricing if you were to take the transformers and heat sinks out of the cost (but of course he has some profit margin built in).
http://ampslab.com/

 

[speakerman39]

In comparison to other parts of an amp, MOSFETS tend to be relatively cheap. Large Caps, Large Transformers, Large Heat Sinks, Chassis--that's where you end up spending the majority of the $.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-chipamp-project-thread.92513/

That is my latest amp build. Dunno why the pics aren't there any more!

This site may give you an idea of pricing if you were to take the transformers and heat sinks out of the cost (but of course he has some profit margin built in).
http://ampslab.com/

Thanks for the link. Will read up on it. It looks very interesting to me. Much appreciated!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[cel4145]

It looks like to me that craving for "More" is being somewhat exploited and many are cashing in on it. Am I right? Or, basically is really does cost much more to build a more powerful amp? Just curious.

Probably a good bit of the "exploitation." Look at Crown power amps, which many people find work as well as their much more expensive home audio amp counterparts, and the pricing is not as crazy. And then consider that most people don't really need much more than 100 watts per channel, and one can reason that the industry sees more power as a luxury that they can charge a lot more for.

 

[slipperybidness]

Probably a good bit of the "exploitation." Look at Crown power amps, which many people find work as well as their much more expensive home audio amp counterparts, and the pricing is not as crazy. And then consider that most people don't really need much more than 100 watts per channel, and one can reason that the industry sees more power as a luxury that they can charge a lot more for.

BUT.....the Crowns are Class D, so they don't have the large caps, transformers and heat sinks. Thus, they CAN be produced much cheaper. You really hit a brick wall when trying to build a Class A or Class AB amp at a high power and lower cost. That same barrier does not exist for Class D.

For a Class D amp, the real $ is involved in the Research and Design aspects of the amp. Class D is a much more complex circuit topology with inherent problems when used for audio applications. Thus, you must out-engineer these inherent problems. But, once you have a good Class D design, these things can be spit out by automated machines for much cheaper than Class A or AB.

 

[speakerman39]

I think that it is merely a combination of the two. The reason I say that is because I am sure it really does NOT cost that much more to build a 500 w RMS amp when compared to a 100 w RMS amp. Yes, the cost is it a bit higher, but I would bet it is not nothing day or night. But, often we see BIG price differences between a 100 or even 250 w RMS amps and the 500 w RMS amps and so on. Basically, more cost more one way or another. Part of which is understandable whereas part of it is just merely to make a hefty profit inmho!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[slipperybidness]

I think that it is merely a combination of the two. The reason I say that is because I am sure it really does NOT cost that much more to build a 500 w RMS amp when compared to a 100 w RMS amp. Yes, the cost is it a bit higher, but I would bet it is not nothing day or night. But, often we see BIG price differences between a 100 or even 250 w RMS amps and the 500 w RMS amps and so on. Basically, more cost more one way or another. Part of which is understandable whereas part of it is just merely to make a hefty profit inmho!

Cheers,

Phil

Compare:
https://www.parts-express.com/avel-lindberg-y236654-250va-35v-35v-toroidal-transformer--122-635
https://www.parts-express.com/avel-lindberg-y236852-625va-35v-35v-toroidal-transformer--122-685

Similar story on the heat sinks and chassis too.

 

[M Code]

I think that it is merely a combination of the two. The reason I say that is because I am sure it really does NOT cost that much more to build a 500 w RMS amp when compared to a 100 w RMS amp. Yes, the cost is it a bit higher, but I would bet it is not nothing day or night. But, often we see BIG price differences between a 100 or even 250 w RMS amps and the 500 w RMS amps and so on. Basically, more cost more one way or another. Part of which is understandable whereas part of it is just merely to make a hefty profit inmho!

Cheers,

Phil

This needs clarification..
Firstly, building a 100W/CH class AB amplifier and a 500W/CH class AB amplifier in terms of material cost. As posted above the 500W/CH requires a more beefier power supply, larger chassis and more heat sinking. Also the power transformer is highest cost single component in an amplifier or AVR.
Secondly, is related to unit sale volume, the 100W/CH amplifiers sell @ a rate 5-7X higher than the 500W/CH amplifier. Making a significant difference in the purchasing power of its internal components, development/tooling amortization and production run qtys. Thirdly, the 500W/CH amplifier caters to a higher end, less price sensitive buyer so the brands take advantage here and work on a higher markup %.

Just my $0.02...

 

[speakerman39]

Not really sure what happened here. But I meant to say that an amp manufacturer already producing amps can build reasonably higher powered amps w/o an enormous increase in expenditures. Maybe my example of a 100 w RMS amp vs. a 500 w RMS amp was not a very good example. So, my bad on that one. However, say a 300-350 w RMS amp and a 500 watt RMS would be more ideal as an example. In other words, does building a 500 w RMS amp really cost that much more to make than a 350 w RMS amp?

I am sure there are no doubt higher costs involved, but moving up in power can get expensive real quick from a buyers perspective. So the question then becomes how much is the profit motive fitting into the actual price? That is what I meant by saying it is a combination of both. That is, increased costs and the fact vendors are churning a profit. Hope I am a bit more clear.....LOL!!!! If I am wrong, then please educate me.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[slipperybidness]

Not really sure what happened here. But I meant to say that an amp manufacturer already producing amps can build reasonably higher powered amps w/o an enormous increase in expenditures. Maybe my example of a 100 w RMS amp vs. a 500 w RMS amp was not a very good example. So, my bad on that one. However, say a 300-350 w RMS amp and a 500 watt RMS would be more ideal as an example. In other words, does building a 500 w RMS amp really cost that much more to make than a 350 w RMS amp?

I am sure there are no doubt higher costs involved, but moving up in power can get expensive real quick from a buyers perspective. So the question then becomes how much is the profit motive fitting into the actual price? That is what I meant by saying it is a combination of both. That is, increased costs and the fact vendors are churning a profit. Hope I am a bit more clear.....LOL!!!! If I am wrong, then please educate me.

Cheers,

Phil

I really think that M Code nailed it in post #10.

 

[speakerman39]

I really think that M Code nailed it in post #10.

Yes he did and I agree. But, I was just trying to clarify my post. Not sure what happened but part of what I typed did not get displayed......LOL!!!! It happens every once in a while. Must be something I am doing, but not all of the time.......LOL!!!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Compare:
https://www.parts-express.com/avel-lindberg-y236654-250va-35v-35v-toroidal-transformer--122-635
https://www.parts-express.com/avel-lindberg-y236852-625va-35v-35v-toroidal-transformer--122-685

Similar story on the heat sinks and chassis too.

BTW, how do you know what size of transformer to use if say you were building a 1,000 w RMS amp? Just curious here. Always good to learn something. Thanks!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[slipperybidness]

BTW, how do you know what size of transformer to use if say you were building a 1,000 w RMS amp? Just curious here. Always good to learn something. Thanks!

Cheers,

Phil

Well, we need to be a bit more precise in our details and definitions at this point to deal with this question.

WattsRMS don't "really exist"--it's just an easy way to say Vrms * Irms = Wrms, and it has been repeated so often that the technical people basically just gave up and went with it.

When we are dealing with amplifiers, the BEST measurement spec SHOULD be the CONTINUOUS Power spec (Continuous Watts) across the entire audio spectrum.

The general rule is to de-rate the power transformer by 25%. So, a 1000W Continuous Amp would have a Power Transformer rated at 1000 * 1.25 = 1250VA (note that transformers are rated as VA or kVA, not W. The reason is that this helps to distinguish the difference between Real Power and Apparent Power).

In practice, you would likely never be pulling a continuous 1000W, so a 1000VA transformer likely wouldn't be needed here either. At this point, we are getting into the difference of DIY amps vs commercial amps--where commercial amps have the disadvantage of trying to hit a particular price point to hit a particular profit margin.

 

[speakerman39]

Now that we have established that the amps can be expensive to build do to the size of the transformer, what about the driver? I am sure drivers like the SVS Ultra 16 are expensive to make. Then, there is the cabinet/finish, and etc. Plus, DSP that is built in to some amps. It is easy to see that it is expensive to produce subs like the Ultra 16. We haven't even discussed research and development, storage, assembly, and etc. My guess it is NOT easy to churn a profit. Especially, just starting out.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[cujobob]

Sub drivers don't have to cost a lot to have great sound quality, but some do. AV123 was able to build a quality but inexpensive (for a powerful sub) efficient subwoofer driver for their MFW - 15 sub. And small companies have put out some fantastic subs (Mark Seaton, Craig Chase, and others have done it) that were/are arguably better than any major brand. Designing a speaker/subwoofer and having a custom driver made aren't overly complicated processes. It's just difficult to do for smaller companies because of the requirement of purchasing a minimum of 1,000 pieces or whatever it may be.


It does not have to cost a lot to make a high power amp, but consumers have to want it. Yes, a class A or AB amp may require more material which has a cost to it and other costly parts may be needed, but those costs go down when competition is created and bulk orders are purchased. They are niche items and prices suffer because of it.

 

[killdozzer]

I don't think @slipperybidness said anything false, but I would like to tweak that ever so slightly. When he builds amps he needs to buy finished products (components) thus he can be affected with overpricing much the same way any customer can when buying the end product.

It is about who is overcharging.

So, let’s say I have a TT manufacturing business. Infomine tells me 500 grams copper costs 2.5 USD. I roll that into a smaller transformer sell to slippery and he puts into an amp and sells the amp for 200$. Then slippery buys a bit larger transformer that still came from the same 2.5 USD per pound of copper, slaps that into an amp and sells it for 400$ or more.

I think to myself; my income stays the same while slippery double on a few grams of copper more. Next time I say; listen slippery, I know your profit margins, from now on if you want a small transformer it’s gonna be 100$ and 200$ for the large one.

But slippery doesn’t want to lower his income so he raises the price to preserve his income. Now the general public says; hey WTF, they want us to give them twice the money for the same product. NO WAY!!

So Slippery and I thin k we need to do something about the general public. They are to smart. We need to call Bernays.

And then Bernays tell us; aaaah, yes, you see where you did wrong, you cater their actual needs rather than their blind desire. People yearn to feel special because they are not. You need to tell them that an almost extinct blind albino tiger jerked off on your TT and this adds dimensions to their listening experience that no one can rival (unless he has a lot of money to throw away). And that only they can hear this scientifically undeterminable sound difference because they are one of a kind.

And then they give you double the money for the same product.

These are just the basics. It gets complicated later on when you tell the general public you’re doing exactly that and keep on doing it. (And don’t even get me started on few aluminium ribs more or less for big or small heat sinkers)

P.S.: Pardon the cynicism.

 

[highfigh]

BTW, how do you know what size of transformer to use if say you were building a 1,000 w RMS amp? Just curious here. Always good to learn something. Thanks!

Cheers,

Phil

An amplifier circuit will need voltage and current if it's going to do its job. A given transformer may be able to provide these, or not. If it can't, and transformers are not equal, the amplifier will never be able to develop 1000W and if it tries, the transformer won't survive, for long.

Transformers use copper wire- the cost for this wire varies, so prices rise and fall. However, go to a supplier and look at the various offerings- you'll see a wide range of prices.

Once the amplifier circuit has been designed, the power supply must meet the demands- it's not only about the transformer- the whole supply will need to support the amplifier and a large amplifier requires a robust power supply.

 

[speakerman39]

Thanks for all of the info/view points, but I would like to learn a bit more about the costs associated w/building drivers, cabinets, and adding PEQ capabilities to amps. Of course, I am focusing on subs at this time. It has been established that the transformers are a BIG cost to the design of an amp. So, what about drivers, cabinets, and /or adding DSP capabilities?

Cheers,

Phil