Pre-amp separate vs Receiver pre-outs

DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Is it the DAC or is it the way the DAC was implemented? Or is it some other part of the circuit?
That's a moot either/or..... as it's the same result...bad sound.
If the audio designer picks a bad DAC or designs a poor circuit, it's on him/her to have made it better.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
That's a moot either/or..... as it's the same result...bad sound.
If the audio designer picks a bad DAC or designs a poor circuit, it's on him/her to have made it better.
Agreed, but then it isn't fair to come to the forums and say "equipment A is better than equipment B due to the DAC".
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Agreed, but then it isn't fair to come to the forums and say "equipment A is better than equipment B due to the DAC".
Actually it is completely fair.....a chain is only as good as its weakest link.....
When I designed my biased XOs, I did not take the attitude, well the bias condition will fix all, so I'll use cheap components.
No, instead I used quality components throughout. And the results are spectacular.
The same thought should be used for all gear.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Like everything else, it all depends on our personal experiences.

Some guys have not heard any differences among DACs or players (in Direct mode). Some guys have.

I have compared a $5,000 CD player to a $100 DVD player (playing CD) and I could not tell the difference. So I do not believe there is much of a difference among DACs.

But if you have heard a difference, then, of course, you will believe there is a significant difference.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
To tell you how bad the Sony CD player was....I could not stand the sound of CDs until I bought my first DVD player, a Panasonic as I recall, and played CDs on it. Everything else in the system was the same.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Like everything else, it all depends on our personal experiences.

Some guys have not heard any differences among DACs or players (in Direct mode). Some guys have.

I have compared a $5,000 CD player to a $100 DVD player (playing CD) and I could not tell the difference. So I do not believe there is much of a difference among DACs.

But if you have heard a difference, then, of course, you will believe there is a significant difference.
Sometimes what one hears in a system is not the result of one piece, but rather a combination of pieces.
The Bel Canto DAC I mentioned, produced a fabulous sound in my system...that same DAC in another system produced a hollow sound...just terrible....so was it the fault of that DAC?
No, it was the combo of that DAC and the speakers....and the one huge difference between the two speaker systems was the second had ribbon tweeters.
It was the combo of that DAC/ribbon tweeters that produced the hollowed out sound.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
There is a great place in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" where the handlebars of a guys BMW were starting to get loose. The author had the knowledge/skills to fix it using a piece of the wall from a Budweiser can as a shim (aluminum is a very good material for this). The owner of the BMW was quite upset that the "exclusivity" of his BMW was violated with a scrap of discarded beer can.
Some people are Romantics and very quick to adopt the mythos associated with marketing (both direct and through professional reviews...especially without measurements). That is not a bad thing, those people make the world a better place, IMHO!
The new VW Beetle and the Mini Cooper are both great examples where the car was not the best among competitors (though both are good); however, there is a certain sense of fun associated with them that makes them more valuable than their objective measures as vehicles would suggest. In contrast, the Pontiac Aztec was a great car that did not sell well due to it being "awkward looking" (though it probably would have better sales after "Breaking Bad")!

We all fall in the strata between the extreme romantic and the cold hard logical science guy. We are biologically wired to find some things more appealing than others on a subjective basis. Thus, some combinations of audible pitches are pleasant while others are disturbing or even clash! Several studies have established that infants prefer to look at beautiful faces.
Getting to audio, I have bought a couple of Marantz AVR despite knowing that Denon represented better value. The main reasons for this are Marantz has long-term history with me(I don't know that Denon existed when I got into audio - mid 70's) and I like the look of the "Port" on the front of their AVRs. I am honest with myself recognizing that buying a Denon would have been a more logical decision, but the cost premium of the Marantz over the Denon was not very much (maybe $50?) and I knew I would feel better about owning a Marantz. If I had the extra coin to spend freely, I would own McIntosh for the same reasons - my personal fondness/memories (and it doesn't hurt that I know others covet them) and appearance - those big blue VU meters!
So is the McIntosh likely to be audibly better than the Denon (assuming the Denon is operating within its design parameters)? I sincerely do not believe so. Would it sound better in my perception? Hell yes!
We have been measuring audio electronics long enough that I believe we know what and how to measure. If properly done, if measurements do not show a significant difference, there probably isn't one. However, that doesn't change the fact that if just looking at my gear makes me feel good, it is going to sound better to me!
It's simple, it's psychological.
Music always sounds good, but it sounds better when I am feeling great than when I am sick.

Another great example of this is Bose. They have been successful even though we can measure that (most of) their gear is not up to other gear at the same price. Through marketing and sales, they have developed a "Bose is best" mythos such that many people are convinced that their Bose system sounds better. As casual listeners, this mythos is stronger than their objective ability to listen to another system and 30 minutes later objectively recognize that their system does not sound as good.

When I chose Marantz for "Romantic" reasons, I made certain that there were no measurements indicating the Marantz was audibly worse than the Denon. That would be foolish (like choosing Bose over better gear at the same price).

But I think it would be more foolish to ignore that we are not measurement instruments and other factors go into our appreciation of our systems.

I believe we know this, but don't always want to admit it to ourselves.

It certainly shows in the sales even among forum/ID products:

Tom V. at PSA developed the XS15se as high value 15" sub. I think they went for $800 ea. He also introduced the S1500 using the ICE amps at $1000. By his own admission the difference in performance between these two for the average user is minimal, but he could not get people to buy the XS15se any more! They all wanted to spend the extra $200 for the ICE amp and latest version.

I believe a similar thing happened with Dennis Murphy and the Phil2. It was an amazing product giving tremendous value (and I believe one of his fundamental objectives is to make high quality sound affordable). I believe he was frustrated at how so many people (myself included) wanted to spend the extra money for the Phil3 to get a custom cabinet and the extra 3 Hz on the low end (IIRC). While Dennis discontinued the Phil2 due to issues with Chinese production, the demand for the Phil2 was not great enough to justify the trouble of finding another off-shore provider to keep the Phil2 in production.

So most of us are willing to recognize that inaudible factors have value when we pull out our wallets! I'm not sure how quick we are to understand that those factors can also effect our perception of sound quality.

Just sayin'...
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
[ I believe a similar thing happened with Dennis Murphy and the Phil2. It was an amazing product giving tremendous value (and I believe one of his fundamental objectives is to make high quality sound affordable). I believe he was frustrated at how so many people (myself included) wanted to spend the extra money for the Phil3 to get a custom cabinet and the extra 3 Hz on the low end (IIRC). While Dennis discontinued the Phil2 due to issues with Chinese production, the demand for the Phil2 was not great enough to justify the trouble of finding another off-shore provider to keep the Phil2 in production.]


Well, I can say for myself, I'm not going to spend more, if I feel the product is a ripoff, or just for some cosmetic frill, with no improvement in the sound output.
The Bel Canto DAC is superb, at least in my system....but the Oppo 105D with its ESS Sabre DAC is about as good, and for less cash, it does much more than just being a DAC.

Same with speakers....I've auditioned speakers costing into the 20s of $1000s.....some were worth the price, imo, some were nothing more than than total junk at a premium price. And damn few, again imo, were better than my customs, which I would hesitate to put a price on.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@KEW as far as Denon goes, their history goes a bit beyond Marantz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denon altho don't know what they were doing with receivers in the 70s (looks like it was separates back then)....
Good point, and like Marantz, Denon is still making high end integrated amps that costs thousands for like 50WX2 that weights over 60 lbs.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=ja&u=http://www.denon.jp/jp/product/hificomponents/amplifiers/pmasx1&usg=ALkJrhhMICjuXxv5ybGIKnNqsC8OhiFqeg
 
D

David Harper

Audioholic Intern
I'm using a yammy aventage AVR as a pre-amp and it's working perfectly as far as I can tell. It's feeding a Schiit Vidar amp and maggie LRS speakers. IMO there's no technical reason why an AVR pre amp section shouldn't be equal in SQ to a separate pre amp. They're both low-level signal devices. I don't think sound quality is an issue.I know that some audiophiles think pre amps have sound quality but that seems far-fetched to me. What matters is with an AVR you can do a lot of other things (cd,bluray,internet,movies,TV,etc.). In fact anyone who's into home entertainment really needs a good AVR. They're just indispensable. Right now I'm listening to Radio Paradise, an internet radio station. The sq is really good in fact I would be hard pressed to notice a difference between it and cd. The audio codec is 320kbs AAC. I have read that in double-blind tests no one was able to reliably distinguish it from cd. I think we sometimes get so obsessed with sq we lose sight of the whole purpose which is enjoying music. Someone once said"audiophiles don't listen to music with their equipment they listen to their equipment with music".
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'll take the separate Pre-Pro to an AVR, for one reason, digital audio processing updates are cheaper from purchase of a new Pre-Pro than a comparable AVR.
 
J

Jack N

Audioholic
KEW – I like your viewpoint. Perception has an enormous impact on human decision making and often over-rules logic. Been there, done that.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
LOL why did I know somehow your answer would include Sony? :) Appears the 7705 and the ES5000 share the same list price of 2200, so not cheaper :)
I should have taken more time wording my comment. The parameters are cost/value/quality/capabilities/desired features. Since my OPPO converts the latest HDMI surround sound notions to RCA, which can be processed by my 20 year old Sony TA-P9000es, I do not yet perceive a need to upgrade for state of the art performance; yet, having HDMI, bass management, and Atmos in a Pre-Pro or AVR does appeal to me; thus, I've been doing some recon. But, so far, I've seen no receiver out there for the money that comes close to matching the aforementioned Marantz Pre-Pro's valued capabilities.
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Could you explain, “oppo converts the latest surround sound notions to rca which can be processed by my 20 year old”...?
Curious is all, seems my little brain is struggling this morning.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
But, so far, I've seen no receiver out there for the money that comes close to matching the aforementioned Marantz Pre-Pro's valued capabilities.
Again, that may be the case if your comparisons are based on list price and/or XLR connections. If not, there are many Denon/Marantz (forget Denon if you need multichannel 7.1 inputs) models that can meet or exceed the capabilities or the AV7702MkII ("aforementioned") Marantz AVC/P. Even on the myth side (so called sound quality), I have yet to see any bench measurements, and/or specs) that show the Marantz AVC/P better in any meaningful way than their corresponding AVR counterparts, except the ridiculously priced 8000 series (I own one..:(, not proud..) I won't consider AVC/P again unless I have a real need for XLR connections, that's just me.
 
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