Pre-amp separate vs Receiver pre-outs

[Jack N]

I did a quick search here but didn’t find quite what I was after. Has anyone had the opportunity to compare a pre-amp separate with the pre-amp in a receiver that’s equally priced? To clarify, let’s say I’m looking at a Yamaha Aventage RX-A3060. Is the pre-amp in that receiver going to sound that much worse than the Aventage CX-A5100 pre-amp separate given that both of them are similarly priced? Or say I’m looking at a Marantz SR7011. Is the pre-amp in that receiver going to sound that much worse than the AV7703? Is sound quality in the separates that much better that it justifies the extra expense of a power amp? Or are the separates more costly simply because of the lower volume of units being sold?

 

[PENG]

I did a quick search here but didn’t find quite what I was after. Has anyone had the opportunity to compare a pre-amp separate with the pre-amp in a receiver that’s equally priced? To clarify, let’s say I’m looking at a Yamaha Aventage RX-A3060. Is the pre-amp in that receiver going to sound that much worse than the Aventage CX-A5100 pre-amp separate given that both of them are similarly priced? Or say I’m looking at a Marantz SR7011. Is the pre-amp in that receiver going to sound that much worse than the AV7703? Is sound quality in the separates that much better that it justifies the extra expense of a power amp? Or are the separates more costly simply because of the lower volume of units being sold?

I kind of have done so and found I can live with flag ship AVRs such as the Denon X7200WA, RX-A3060. I probably can live with the lesser X6300H/X4300H, SR7010 and RX-A2060 as well. In fact my next upgrade will likely be just replacing my prepro with an AVR.

 

[Jack N]

Thanks. Others?

 

[lovinthehd]

I've had separates back in 2ch days (and still have some of them), but don't think a separate pre-pro is worth it, now having a few avrs with pre-outs (but to be clear have never purchased a dedicated modern pre-pro either). The pricing of the pre-pros isn't appealing nor are all the extra amp boxes needed for my purposes....and I have used power amps with my avrs, but no longer do. I've always thought the economies of scale pricing explanation makes a lot of sense. Wouldn't surprise me that the Marantz pre is very similar to their avr (or the equivalent Denon for that matter)....economies of scale again are hard to not take advantage of....

 

[Cos]

I kind of have done so and found I can live with flag ship AVRs such as the Denon X7200WA, RX-A3060. I probably can live with the lesser X6300H/X4300H, SR7010 and RX-A2060 as well. In fact my next upgrade will likely be just replacing my prepro with an AVR.

NoooOOoooo....what are you going to do with all those amps

 

[Cos]

I have been separates since 2003 so I have too many amps to change over. I run Dolby Atmos, so I am not going to change over to an AVR any time soon. That doesn't mean going with an AVR is a bad thing.

I think it would be extremely difficult to notice any difference between the two.

 

[PENG]

I have been separates since 2003 so I have too many amps to change over. I run Dolby Atmos, so I am not going to change over to an AVR any time soon. That doesn't mean going with an AVR is a bad thing.

I think it would be extremely difficult to notice any difference between the two.

I spent too much money on the AV8801 and I don't want to do it again if I can pick up an outdated flagship AVR for under 2k. Then I can afford to buy more 24/96, 24/192 and DSD128 tracks for my 2 channel systems. The AVR will be used as prepro only unless I can sell a couple of the amps for good prices.

I think the AV8801 should be good for a few more years anyway.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks. Others?

I am 100% confident they will sound identical if they are level matched and in Direct/Bypass mode.

 

[Jack N]

I would have tendency to agree with all that at this level it would be very difficult to hear a difference. The XLR connections could play a big role under certain conditions, but other than that it's hard to justify the extra cost.

 

[PENG]

I would have tendency to agree with all that at this level it would be very difficult to hear a difference. The XLR connections could play a big role under certain conditions, but other than that it's hard to justify the extra cost.

I know how good it feels to get into pre pro and power amp the first time, but after the initial thrill, the logical side of the brain would kick in and then one would likely realize the following facts.

1) Most probably won't use the balanced I/Os. As you pointed out, they are only of benefit under certain conditions.
2) The pre-outs don't always (D&M, Yamaha as examples) offer higher outputs even if you need them higher.
3) They may last longer but they get outdated too quickly IMO for that to be a factor.
4) For movies, even if they do sound better, I would bet 99.99% of their users would fail even a simple blind listening tests comparing their pre pros with the flag ship AVR of the same brand.
5) As in 4) above, same for music if listened in pure direct mode.
6) Regardless, for those who are serious in high quality two channel music, few HT system can do both, so I think most will have separate two channel systems anyway.

After making the wrong decision twice, 3) is definitely a deciding factor for my future upgrade. If I could go back in time, I would have stick to powering the front 3 channels with power amps and an AVR to do the rest. Now I have a total of 3 power amps with a total of 11 working channels yet only using 7. If I "upgrade" to an AVR now I would end up with 20 to 22 channels for my HT system so I am going to hold on to my somewhat antiquated (at age 3) pre pro for as long as I can..

 

[rnatalli]

I compared the Emotiva UMC-200 directly against a Denon with preouts (forget which model) a few years back and honestly couldn't tell much of a difference until engaging Audyssey.

 

[DD66000]

I use separates...with a different twist.
I use an Oppo 105D as a processor/DAC, a Parasound P7 pure analog pre-amp, into Parasound power amps.

The Oppo/P7 combo replaced an AVR....I would not go back.
I've had the P7 for years for analog audio.
The Oppo supplying processing, high quality USB DAC that is superior to DACs in AVRs. Plus optical, coax, HDMI digital inputs. W/O having to add another box for a quality DAC.

 

[j_garcia]

105 works if you only have a few devices maybe in a music setup. I have more than one HDMI device to feed since it is in the main system, so it doesn't work for me. For music though, I have it going analog direct to an amp for the CA0W1s.

I've done AVR as a pre, currently have an Emotiva and upgrading to the new inexpensive Emo pre as well. I don't notice a lot of difference between AVR or Pre. Pretty much look for the feature set you want and get that.

 

[DD66000]

True, the 105 only has two HDMI inputs.
I have two HDMI devices...Mac mini, ATV.
And the Oppo being a disc player eliminates one input needed.
I do have a second BD player which is hacked for region free DVDs....but only have a couple of discs that I need it for. So it does not get used much.
But the 105's asynchronous USB DAC is superb....prefer it to using HDMI for the iTunes/HDtrack music on the Mac. And I'm running XLR cables between the Oppo-P7-A21 which provides a lower noise floor.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yup, I am 100% confident that any "significant night-and-day improvement" by Amp, Pre-amp, or DAC is secondary to a difference in volume level, some kind of EQ (not Direct Mode), or placebo.

 

[DD66000]

There are some truly bad DACs....and some considerly better.
I had a CD player that was horrible....had to be the DAC.

 

[slipperybidness]

There are some truly bad DACs....and some considerly better.
I had a CD player that was horrible....had to be the DAC.

But, how many years ago was that?

Today, DACs are a commodity item. I don't get too caught up on that.

http://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Integrated-Circuits-ICs/Data-Converter-ICs/Digital-to-Analog-Converters-DAC/_/N-6j74u?P=1yyh4l4Z1z0sy46Z1z0zls6

 

[j_garcia]

DACs do matter when you are talking about something like the 105. In most AVRs and typical products, not so much. I can hear a definite difference between my 105 and my UMC-200.

 

[slipperybidness]

DACs do matter when you are talking about something like the 105. In most AVRs and typical products, not so much. I can hear a definite difference between my 105 and my UMC-200.

Yeah, but the counter-argument: How are you 100% certain that the DAC accounts for the difference?

Is it the DAC or is it the way the DAC was implemented? Or is it some other part of the circuit?

That's why I don't get too caught up on this myself.

 

[DD66000]

DACs do matter when you are talking about something like the 105. In most AVRs and typical products, not so much. I can hear a definite difference between my 105 and my UMC-200.

A few months back I had a Bel Canto DAC in my system, it was superb....and I'd say the ESS in the 105 is almost as good.
Whatever DAC is in the HK AVR 3600 leaves something to be desired.