Marcus Oakley's "Best Recommendation" Questions

[velocitymj]

Or you could get exactly same results (cd playback) from your already owned pana ub900 disc player

Why do you say that?

 

[velocitymj]

I'm talking about the DAC's, transport and Marantz's HDAM processing and how that affects the analog performance of the unit. To give you an example, A friend of mine bought Oppo's flagship 105 unit that was praised for it's DAC's and it's overall analog performance. He lent it to me for a few days to try it out and I
expected to be hurt at how much better it would sound when A/B compared to my Marantz which was vastly older. I WANTED it to sound better to be honest and all I.
ack. Not that it was bad, it's just the Marantz brought music to life on my system. Vocals were very laid back
on the Oppo and the Marantz brought them forward and in my face. Bare in mind this comparison was using the analog out's on both units wired to my Rotel together so I was able to switch to one or the other
immediately. Volume levels were
matched.

I have to second this opinion.
I don't know about the Marantz but I do own an Oppo 105 D (that I use for Blue Ray video playback only) and it doesn't come close to the sound playback of my Bryston BCD-1 in a side by side shoot out.
The 105 doesn't have the clarity or resolution, the sound is not as rich (for lack of a better term) nor does it have as deep or as wide of a sound stage as the Bryston.
The Bryston playback replicates a you are there experience, more so than the 105.
But the Bryston also costs twice as much.
If you don't listen to anything else, okay, you'll be happy with the Oppo 105, esp. for the money.
But if you have the budget, there are other options.
If you can find a used Bryston CD player it's worth checking out.
There is also Wadia and some very good used buys in players.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have to second this opinion.
I don't know about the Marantz but I do own an Oppo 105 D (that I use for Blue Ray video playback only) and it doesn't come close to the sound playback of my Bryston BCD-1 in a side by side shoot out.
The 105 doesn't have the clarity or resolution, the sound is not as rich (for lack of a better term) nor does it have as deep or as wide of a sound stage as the Bryston.
The Bryston playback replicates a you are there experience, more so than the 105.
But the Bryston also costs twice as much.
If you don't listen to anything else, okay, you'll be happy with the Oppo 105, esp. for the money.
But if you have the budget, there are other options.
If you can find a used Bryston CD player it's worth checking out.
There is also Wadia and some very good used buys in players.

How are you connecting the players for comparison?

 

[velocitymj]

balanced out.
Mogami Gold.. $79.00 USD
I also tried both players in an interconnect shoot out that I'm in the middle of.. Just to see if cables would make a difference (they didn't).
An "ultra" high end cable company has a loaner program and so with high hopes against science, I went for it.
Which means that I also tried a pair of $850.00 interconnects and a pair of $1750.00 interconnects between the two.
While all three pairs of interconnects sound amazing, with no discernible difference between them, the same absolutely cannot be said about the two players.
One friend described the sound of the Oppo as being "thin and lean".

 

[lovinthehd]

balanced out.
Mogami Gold.. $79.00 USD
I also tried both players in an interconnect shoot out that I'm in the middle of.. Just to see if cables would make a difference (they didn't).
An "ultra" high end cable company has a loaner program and so with high hopes against science, I went for it.
Which means that I also tried a pair of $850.00 interconnects and a pair of $1750.00 interconnects between the two.
While all three pairs of interconnects sound amazing, with no discernible difference between them, the same absolutely cannot be said about the two players.
One friend described the sound of the Oppo as being "thin and lean".

So these are analog comparisons, were they level matched?

 

[velocitymj]

Of course. What kind of a comparison would it be if the levels weren't set the same for both?
If you're looking for an objective answer between two or more objects, all inputs have to be identical.

 

[lovinthehd]

Of course. What kind of a comparison would it be if the levels weren't set the same for both?
If you're looking for an objective answer between two or more objects, all inputs have to be identical.

So how did you do that level matching is what I'm curious about. Why not simply have the digital signal passed along instead?

 

[velocitymj]

So how did you do that level matching is what I'm curious about. Why not simply have the digital signal passed along instead?

I don't use a receiver.
I'm analog out to a preamp and from the preamp to an amp.
Enjoy your day.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't use a receiver.
I'm analog out to a preamp and from the preamp to an amp.
Enjoy your day.

So no level matching?

 

[mtrycrafts]

So no level matching?

And, probably no blinding either.

 

[velocitymj]

So no level matching?

I said that I level matched them.
And if you mean with my SPL meter, the answer is yes.
I used an SPL when I set the acoustics for my listening room in conjunction with a useful app called "Audio Tools", which has a line level input on it.

 

[velocitymj]

I said that I level matched them.
And if you mean with my SPL meter, the answer is yes.
I used an SPL when I set the acoustics for my listening room in conjunction with a useful app called "Audio Tools", which has a line level input on it.

 

[lovinthehd]

I said that I level matched them.
And if you mean with my SPL meter, the answer is yes.
I used an SPL when I set the acoustics for my listening room in conjunction with a useful app called "Audio Tools", which has a line level input on it.

I know you said you had, I was just asking how you matched the levels between the two players which I'm still not sure how you did that in conjunction with your comparison....

 

[velocitymj]

And, probably no blinding either.

Aahhh an assumption!
Well you know what they say about assumptions....
Sounds like you have a problem with the fact that a Bryston CD player sounds better than an Oppo 105.
Is your use of a test of a low end boom box and other mid-fi components supposed to be some sort of refutation to my comments about a well engineered (as in using applied science) component which is made, using well made electronics?
Are you one of those people that thinks that all amps and speakers sound the same or that something exceeding what you consider an acceptable price point is for "phools" (isn't that what you folks call people who spend large amounts of money on audio gear)?
I usually A/B components and if I can get a friend over, I'll blind test something and get their opinion.
But then I'm also very critical.
Example: power cords.. never heard a difference between a $2k power cord and a stock one.
I'm in the middle of two weeks of A/B in three pairs of interconnects.
One pair of Mogami Gold XLR's at $80.00, one pair of high end $850.00 XLRs from a well known cable company (not Audioquest) and a pair of $1750.00 XLR's from the same "high end" cable company.
8 days into it and they all sound amazing and exactly the same.. I can't hear a difference.
Except on one track I thought that the Mogami's sounded a tiny bit louder.
The Mogami's were recommended to me by several of my friends in the recording industry. That's why I bought them.. Because they hear a difference when using them.
I joined these forums because I think that Gene provides useful real information and I was interested in his opinions or any direction he might have about turntables and tone arms.. and I was hoping for some validation about my instinct on vibration isolation, since I can't seem to find any real data on it relating to audio.
But what I'm seeing here, from a quite a few people, is a lot of condescension directed at audiophiles, by people such as yourself, whose audio listening experience seems to be limited to home theater systems and mid-fi receivers.
And they/you write like they're more interested in their subjective opinions and assumptions (like your comment to me) than they are into actually going out and having an objective, critical listening session.
Even Gene has stated that he doesn't know why two amps that have tested out the same, sound different.

But then he also stated that if "someone tries to sell you a $100k speaker, run from them".
The Martin Logan Neolith speaker he's standing next to ( and that says he's "mesmorized" by) cost $80k and I don't see him running from them.. (Maybe a $20k price point difference is the threshold at which he doesn't feel you need to lace up your running shoes?)
And those speakers are wired with speaker cables that cost over $5K (Martin Logan is not in the audio cable business), connected to tube amps that cost a lot more than your boom box.

It's annoying enough to have to deal with the audio tweakers who virtually scream at you when you have expressed an opinion based upon critical listening, that disagrees that green paint on a CD or Shakti holograms in a room or bricks on a component, (or some other nonsense) makes a huge sonic difference.
Your attitude is cut from the same cloth as them, just made in a different part of the factory.
Don't like an opinion? Too bad.

 

[velocitymj]

I know you said you had, I was just asking how you matched the levels between the two players which I'm still not sure how you did that in conjunction with your comparison....

For the CD players with the SPL meter, I used Stereophile's Test CD 3 and set the levels on both using the Midrange Decade 1/3 warble tones at 20dBFS (Track 18)
While there is a slight momentary oscillation because of the warble, the sound level stays consistent enough to get a good match. I did check it several times.
I kind of went through the whole thing trying to get the room tuned right.. But that's a different subject.
Obviously the level on the preamp never changed either.
But the real test is in hearing the detail of the music that the player is reproducing and does it sound like music. Which is analog.
For movies, the 105 is perfect.. Actually all of Oppo's Blue Ray players excel at that.
You don't need to experience something related to a live concert... like the snap of a snare or the decay of a cymbal..
You're watching something and your mind can't be in two places at once...
It's not like sitting in front of two speakers listening where your visualizing the musicians as they play.
And if you think about it, most musicians don't care about that stuff (although I know a few that have tube amps and play vinyl.. on old turntables).
But for some reason, I like hearing those elements..

As a side note, I was perfectly happy with my Oppo 83, but the preamp I upgraded to, doesn't sound very good using the unbalanced inputs and the 83 is only unbalanced out.

 

[lovinthehd]

For the CD players with the SPL meter, I used Stereophile's Test CD 3 and set the levels on both using the Midrange Decade 1/3 warble tones at 20dBFS (Track 18)
While there is a slight momentary oscillation because of the warble, the sound level stays consistent enough to get a good match. I did check it several times.
I kind of went through the whole thing trying to get the room tuned right.. But that's a different subject.
Obviously the level on the preamp never changed either.
But the real test is in hearing the detail of the music that the player is reproducing and does it sound like music. Which is analog.
For movies, the 105 is perfect.. Actually all of Oppo's Blue Ray players excel at that.
You don't need to experience something related to a live concert... like the snap of a snare or the decay of a cymbal..
You're watching something and your mind can't be in two places at once...
It's not like sitting in front of two speakers listening where your visualizing the musicians as they play.
And if you think about it, most musicians don't care about that stuff (although I know a few that have tube amps and play vinyl.. on old turntables).
But for some reason, I like hearing those elements..

As a side note, I was perfectly happy with my Oppo 83, but the preamp I upgraded to, doesn't sound very good using the unbalanced inputs and the 83 is only unbalanced out.

Sorry, still eluding me as to how you did this comparison with a level match between the two units; do one or both of the units have adjustable level output if the pre-amp level remained the same? Why would there be an audible difference between an unbalanced and balanced output other than level?

 

[velocitymj]

Sorry, still eluding me as to how you did this comparison with a level match between the two units; do one or both of the units have adjustable level output if the pre-amp level remained the same? Why would there be an audible difference between an unbalanced and balanced output other than level?

Are you playing a game with me?
Or do you just have a limited amount of listening or academic experience with audio?

In recording, balanced signals add about 6 to 10db of extra headroom, causing the sound to be louder with less gain.

 

[lovinthehd]

Are you playing a game with me?
Or do you just have a limited amount of listening or academic experience with audio?

In recording, balanced signals add about 6 to 10db of extra headroom, causing the sound to be louder with less gain.

Just looking for a clearer explanation on how you compared two players, especially how you were able to level match them for a comparison using your pre-amp which apparently operates at a fixed level.

Are you equating level differences to sound quality differences?

PS I am assuming you at least had both players running thru the pre-amp simultaneously....

 

[velocitymj]

Just looking for a clearer explanation on how you compared two players, especially how you were able to level match them for a comparison using your pre-amp which apparently operates at a fixed level.

Are you equating level differences to sound quality differences?

PS I am assuming you at least had both players running thru the pre-amp simultaneously....

Yes, both are on separate inputs. I have 3 balanced and 3 unbalanced.

Here is a video by Gene. At 09:45 he will explain that he has heard differences between CD players.

 

[velocitymj]

Just looking for a clearer explanation on how you compared two players, especially how you were able to level match them for a comparison using your pre-amp which apparently operates at a fixed level.

Are you equating level differences to sound quality differences?

PS I am assuming you at least had both players running thru the pre-amp simultaneously....

Here is another video by Gene, where he states that there are differences in how amps sound that people do pick out in blind tests, even though some of the amps test the same.
From 06:45 to 08:45

They also acknowledge the subjective matter of personal preference to types of sound.

So, it's really a matter of going out and listening to level of CD players or DAC set ups and believing your ears.
I can tell you my opinion, but even if you knew me and trusted me to be objective and critical, you should go and listen for yourself and form your own opinion.