Help with reading standing waves, EQ, and bass settings

[moves]

Hi,

AVR = Pioneer SC 27
AMP - MC302
Speakers = Totem Wind

I am finding that there is too much bass on certain songs running Pure Direct and am trying to tone down the bass.

I ran the auto MCACC setup and am now trying to adjust it manually. The following image is the standing wave graph and it is not completely flat. The graph is as follows:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/15461321@N04/30181498283/in/dateposted-public/
Shouldn't this graph be flat? If I adjust the ATT (db) (not sure what this is) but if I adjust it on each of the 3 filters then I can get a flat line. Is this what I want? I am thinking yes! However, I tried it and don't notice much difference. Also not sure how to play with the Freq (Hz) and Q settings. Any input on this?

There is also the the EQ that is available on this AVR. The picture is as follows:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/15461321@N04/30184689444/in/dateposted-public/

The speakers are currently set to small crossed over at 50 Hz and I am guessing this is why the left column at 63 hz is disabled. I have a cheap PSB subsonic 5i with these 10k speakers and I feel the bass from the speaker drivers are far better and sound better at 50 hz crossover.

Any other ideas on how to Equalize the bass on these speakers?

Thanks is advance!

 

[moves]

Anybody?

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Any other ideas on how to Equalize the bass on these speakers?

Well, you’re obviously limited to what the on-board equalization provides.

I wouldn’t put any stock in that graph, it obviously is not representing what you’re hearing. Simply adjust the 125 Hz band down until things improve. If you have the speakers against a wall or in a corner, moving them away will help, too.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[moves]

hmmm that didn't seem to do much to the sound. Maybe I should try the miniDSP room correction software.

 

[everettT]

What source? Is there a difference that you have heard with the same source? Since your running it in PD mode wo processing , does the boost in bass change as you move around the room? And as for a flat response, most rooms will not give you that

 

[moves]

What source? Is there a difference that you have heard with the same source? Since your running it in PD mode wo processing , does the boost in bass change as you move around the room? And as for a flat response, most rooms will not give you that

I am using the desktop plugged into the Pioneer AVR VIA optical cable. I know it's not the source because these speaker are brand new to me and I didn't have this issue with their little bother's.

 

[KenM10759]

Those are some VERY nice speakers. Congratulations!

Have you considered the room itself? How is it configured and treated? Bare floors and walls?

 

[moves]

Those are some VERY nice speakers. Congratulations!

Have you considered the room itself? How is it configured and treated? Bare floors and walls?

Thanks man they are beautiful. Here are some pics of how they are set up. I am thinking of maybe trying to remove the bass trap that is next to the left speaker.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/15461321@N04/30750228552/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/15461321@N04/30234512324/in/dateposted-public/

As you can see, there isn't many options for speaker placement in this room.

 

[TLS Guy]

Why are you setting those speakers to small? Those Totems have an F3 of 24 Hz and your sub has an F3 of 30 Hz!

Get rid of that sub, from the look of your peaks, I bet it is much more the sub than the room. It looks if it has a nasty high q peak and a strong second harmonic.

Setting speakers to small is for inadequate speakers (most). If you have good capable speakers run them full range and DO NOT set them to small.

If you do get a good sub, either just send it the LFE signal or send the bass to the speakers and sub and and also send the LFE to the sub. Trust me it will sound much better if you follow my advice.

 

[moves]

Why are you setting those speakers to small? Those Totems have an F3 of 24 Hz and your sub has an F3 of 30 Hz!

Get rid of that sub, from the look of your peaks, I bet it is much more the sub than the room. It looks if it has a nasty high q peak and a strong second harmonic.

Setting speakers to small is for inadequate speakers (most). If you have good capable speakers run them full range and DO NOT set them to small.

If you do get a good sub, either just send it the LFE signal or send the bass to the speakers and sub and and also send the LFE to the sub. Trust me it will sound much better if you follow my advice.

hmmm okay I will do that. But when I hear the boomy bass it is when I am running pure direct i.e. the sub is not playing. When I switch the setting to Direct, the sub kicks in and tones down the bass on bass heavy music. I had totem forests before this and they sounded not so boomy in the lower end because of the smaller woofers.

When you say "if you do get a good sub, either just send it the LFE signal or send the bass to the speakers and sub and and also send the LFE to the sub."

Do I do this by setting the speakers back to small and then let the sub handle the lower frequencies?

 

[everettT]

I am using the desktop plugged into the Pioneer AVR VIA optical cable. I know it's not the source because these speaker are brand new to me and I didn't have this issue with their little bother's.

The ones that come with most AVRs. If your running in PD as you mentioned placement and room seem more likely. The umik and rew really are not that hard to use and interrupt. You don't need a minidsp now you just need to see the graphs.

 

[moves]

The ones that come with most AVRs. If your running in PD as you mentioned placement and room seem more likely. The umik and rew really are not that hard to use and interrupt. You don't need a minidsp now you just need to see the graphs.

So this will allow me to look at some graphs but not do anything about it. If I wanted to do something about it, what type of minidsp would be ideal to get? The nanoAVR HD or the 2 X 4 balanced? (the only balanced inputs I have are on the Mcintosh amp though).

 

[everettT]

So this will allow me to look at some graphs but not do anything about it. If I wanted to do something about it, what type of minidsp would be ideal to get? The nanoAVR HD or the 2 X 4 balanced? (the only balanced inputs I have are on the Mcintosh amp though).

Yes determine what's wrong first, I use minidsp for my subs, but you may not need eq. For most the best eq is a cut not boost. Just take the measurements and play with placement and treatments in the software, you might find that eq isn't needed.

 

[moves]

Yes determine what's wrong first, I use minidsp for my subs, but you may not need eq. For most the best eq is a cut not boost. Just take the measurements and play with placement and treatments in the software, you might find that eq isn't needed.

Ya good point. I don't have much space to work with though. Here are more pics of my area and don't mind the mess The couch is on it's way in about 4 weeks. Unfortunately, the couch will be about only 12 inches from the wall.

Here it is:

https://flic.kr/s/aHskNjWcPh

Gatta hit the play button at the top of the screen. The icon that looks like a t.v.

 

[everettT]

Ya good point. I don't have much space to work with though. Here are more pics of my area and don't mind the mess The couch is on it's way in about 4 weeks. Unfortunately, the couch will be about only 12 inches from the wall.

Here it is:

https://flic.kr/s/aHskNjWcPh

Gatta hit the play button at the top of the screen. The icon that looks like a t.v.

Just pick up the mic and see what's up, you can always sell it after if you don't need it. I find myself using it more often as I help friends with their setups.

 

[Dan Madden]

Ya want my 2 cents? You have very large (Very nice!) speakers in a very small room. They are also positioned very close to the listening chairs.

You are suffering from the same situation as myself. Wall to wall carpeting and ten thousand acoustic panels are killing the mids and highs coming out of your speakers and hyper accenting the bass response. Contrary to what many believe here on the forum, you NEED some reflections in your room!

When I moved into my current apartment (wall to wall carpeting and curtains on each side of the room) from my former place (hardwood floors with a throw rug in the middle of the room......no curtains), my sound went from dynamic, clear and articulate to muddy and bass heavy. In both rooms, my bass is/was EQ'd but the difference in the new (dead) room is disappointing to say the least.

Definitely ditch the sub.........get rid of the panels and start from the beginning. The wall to wall carpeting alone is going to absorb a lot of (mid to high freq.) energy coming out of your speakers and accent their bass response to the point where it is almost impossible to tame it. There's a fine line between a room being too 'live' to being too 'dead'. You have to find a happy medium.

 

[moves]

Yea my speakers are too big for this room. I like what you are saying and thanks for your opinion. I'll take them down and see if there is a difference. I got a noise complaint yesterday lol so maybe I'll test them out in a bit. New speakers... now I need a new house....

Ya want my 2 cents? You have very large (Very nice!) speakers in a very small room. They are also positioned very close to the listening chairs.

You are suffering from the same situation as myself. Wall to wall carpeting and ten thousand acoustic panels are killing the mids and highs coming out of your speakers and hyper accenting the bass response. Contrary to what many believe here on the forum, you NEED some reflections in your room!

When I moved into my current apartment (wall to wall carpeting and curtains on each side of the room) from my former place (hardwood floors with a throw rug in the middle of the room......no curtains), my sound went from dynamic, clear and articulate to muddy and bass heavy. In both rooms, my bass is/was EQ'd but the difference in the new (dead) room is disappointing to say the least.

Definitely ditch the sub.........get rid of the panels and start from the beginning. The wall to wall carpeting alone is going to absorb a lot of (mid to high freq.) energy coming out of your speakers and accent their bass response to the point where it is almost impossible to tame it. There's a fine line between a room being too 'live' to being too 'dead'. You have to find a happy medium.

 

[everettT]

Rew can simulate graphs for speaker placement and room treatments. So instead of starting over just play with the software after you take a measurement.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yea my speakers are too big for this room. I like what you are saying and thanks for your opinion. I'll take them down and see if there is a difference. I got a noise complaint yesterday lol so maybe I'll test them out in a bit. New speakers... now I need a new house....

I have been pondering and researching your problem. Those last pictures are helpful. Although it is a small room, it is very open and would not therefore likely develop intense standing waves. I was particularly concerned about your statement that your problem is relived to a high degree by using a mediocre sub rather then the bass extension of those speakers.

Did you carefully audition those speakers before purchase and under what conditions?

I ask this because I'm frankly concerned that those speakers despite looks and high price are not actually very good.

I had a bad feeling about your graph with concerns that it might actually show speaker resonance with a strong second harmonic.

Now I have not heard those speakers, and I can not find any third party measurements. I have come across quite a few subjective reports that say those speakers have "bloated" bass.

I have heard quite a few smaller Totem speakers. My overwhelming impression has been good but not quite right. I had a pair in for repair a little while back and to be honest the crossover was not quite optimal by measurement.

Now as I understand it, Totem are low on science and high on subjective tuning by ear. This can work to an extent with simpler designs.

You are not going to produce a complex design like that without careful measurement, thorough design calculations based on a thorough understanding of the physics of sound reproduction.

I have a number of concerns about this speaker. Yes, just concerns as that is as far as I can go with the information I can gather.

I have concerns there may be a strong cabinet resonance.

Due to the low F3 from that woofer I'm concerned that this is a high Q extended bass alignment, which I avoid like the plague.

I'm concerned about the crossover from woofer to mids at 180 Hz.

These are a problem for two reasons. The high component values tend to push driver Qs upwards and as Billy Woodman if ATC continually points out those passive low crossover points frequently results in electrical resonances in the crossovers. I think this is what Floyd Toole is referring to with his remarks about exotic high end speakers requiring arc welding amps to drive them because of incompetent design.

These low crossover points also make it next to impossible to get good sub integration. You end up with two crossover points too close together. This results in peaked band pass gain which is very hard to deal with and impossible without aids like mini DSP.

Lastly in general I have frequently found high priced exotic speakers to not be very good.

Lastly a hall mark of problem speakers is exacerbation of room problems, whereas better more competent designs minimize them.

The bottom line is that I have concerns that those speakers despite good looks and a high price, may not be your optimal option.

 

[everettT]

I have been pondering and researching your problem. Those last pictures are helpful. Although it is a small room, it is very open and would not therefore likely develop intense standing waves. I was particularly concerned about your statement that your problem is relived to a high degree by using a mediocre sub rather then the bass extension of those speakers.

Did you carefully audition those speakers before purchase and under what conditions?

I ask this because I'm frankly concerned that those speakers despite looks and high price are not actually very good.

I had a bad feeling about your graph with concerns that it might actually show speaker resonance with a strong second harmonic.

Now I have not heard those speakers, and I can not find any third party measurements. I have come across quite a few subjective reports that say those speakers have "bloated" bass.

I have heard quite a few smaller Totem speakers. My overwhelming impression has been good but not quite right. I had a pair in for repair a little while back and to be honest the crossover was not quite optimal by measurement.

Now as I understand it, Totem are low on science and high on subjective tuning by ear. This can work to an extent with simpler designs.

You are not going to produce a complex design like that without careful measurement, thorough design calculations based on a thorough understanding of the physics of sound reproduction.

I have a number of concerns about this speaker. Yes, just concerns as that is as far as I can go with the information I can gather.

I have concerns there may be a strong cabinet resonance.

Due to the low F3 from that woofer I'm concerned that this is a high Q extended bass alignment, which I avoid like the plague.

I'm concerned about the crossover from woofer to mids at 180 Hz.

These are a problem for two reasons. The high component values tend to push driver Qs upwards and as Billy Woodman if ATC continually points out those passive low crossover points frequently results in electrical resonances in the crossovers. I think this is what Floyd Toole is referring to with his remarks about exotic high end speakers requiring arc welding amps to drive them because of incompetent design.

These low crossover points also make it next to impossible to get good sub integration. You end up with two crossover points too close together. This results in peaked band pass gain which is very hard to deal with and impossible without aids like mini DSP.

Lastly in general I have frequently found high priced exotic speakers to not be very good.

Lastly a hall mark of problem speakers is exacerbation of room problems, whereas better more competent designs minimize them.

The bottom line is that I have concerns that those speakers despite good looks and a high price, may not be your optimal option.

If that is the case with the high Q, would this circuit work
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/advanced-tools/linkwitz-transform

I didn't see that it was a ported speaker and since the circuit was designed for sealed enclosures it came to mind as I use it with my subs.