Need help with choosing a budget subwoofer - some used options included

[yonyz]

This is highly regarded can you get a deal on it?
https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-Sub-12HG-Synergy-300-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B003VIWK0G

It ends up being just $100 less than a new SVS PB-1000. Or $210 more than the used R-12SW.

As for the R-12SW, it's not in a store - it's a guy who sells it. He has a full set of Klipsch for sale at his home, so I could listen to it in an environment that's possibly similar to mine.

There are no returns for items in Israel, unless they're broken, and then you just get a replacement.
You can't buy something and return it just because you didn't like it.

 

[afterlife2]

Go check it out! Bring some movies & music! Maybe you can also haggle a bit If you like it.

 

[rojo]

Measurements seems to disagree with you:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1391243-bic-v1220-bic-f12-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs.html
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/jbl-es-series-home-theater-speaker-system-page-3#8geM1ypsz5MwH1k1.97

Not sure about that. S&V says the JBL ES sub does 105dB at 32Hz corner loaded, but no indication of distortion at that level is given. Josh Ricci says the BIC PL-200 does 102.5dB at 31.5Hz ground plane within CEA-2010 distortion limits.

It's not even worth worrying about, really. We're pretty much debating whether a Yugo or a Chevette would win a race.

Edit: Oh, I see what happened. Thread survey and post #1, OP expresses interest in the BIC F12; but in post #11 (the post to which I was responding) he mentioned the PL-200. I was wondering why you linked F12 measurements.

 

[yonyz]

Go check it out! Bring some movies & music! Maybe you can also haggle a bit If you like it.

I think I'd rather be certain before doing that 25 minutes ride just to check it out. That 29hz limit does bother me. It's just 10hz lower than my main speakers.

I've subscribed to price updates on some subs on Amazon, using CamelCamelCamel.com. Hopefully something would change.

I've also emailed BIC regarding the PL-200 electrical input (whether or not it works with 230V).
Also emailed a local retailer who is said to distribute the SVS subs here in Israel. Someone on hometheater.co.il (a local HT forum) said they sell it for a better price than the price I would pay by importing it myself, which is a rare thing. So I'll await their reply or call them tomorrow.

 

[afterlife2]

25 min is nothing. I've taken the train an hour away to get my last sub(Dayton 1200). You never mentioned how big a room you got? Unless I missed that?

 

[yonyz]

25 min is nothing. I've taken the train an hour away to get my last sub(Dayton 1200). You never mentioned how big a room you got? Unless I missed that?

Lol, I hope it was worth it.
Thing is, I have nothing to compare it with. I haven't listened to such an expensive sub before.
I'm sure I'll be blown away even if it's just alright and not great.

My bedroom is 32 square feet (10 meters). I'll probably move out in 6 months or so, and then it would be in the living room, whose size is unknown.

 

[rojo]

Lol, I hope it was worth it.
Thing is, I have nothing to compare it with. I haven't listened to such an expensive sub before.
I'm sure I'll be blown away even if it's just alright and not great.

My bedroom is 32 square feet (10 meters). I'll probably move out in 6 months or so, and then it would be in the living room, whose size is unknown.

As in, 10m x 10m? Or roughly 3.2m x 3.2m? How high is your ceiling, about 2.5 meters?

 

[afterlife2]

Aching back and hands sure it was, but price was too good. Glad it was winter cause NYC is Humid as FK right now.

 

[yonyz]

3.8 x 2.7 or something. Don't remember exactly. Yes, 2.5 meters of height or so.
It's very humid here too. Running from one AC to another.

 

[rojo]

3.8 x 2.7 or something. Don't remember exactly. Yes, 2.5 meters of height or so.
It's very humid here too. Running from one AC to another.

That's around 900 cubic feet. Hmmm. Well, the Monoprice 9723 gets my vote. Or if you'd like something a little smaller, the BIC V1020 or the BK Electronics Gemini II might be a better choice. In any case, I think the Dayton SUB-1500 would be pretty inconvenient in a room that size.

Are you any good with wood working? I'm wondering if importing a subwoofer driver and amp only while building your own enclosure would give you a better value than importing the much larger and heavier finished product. For example, I've been helping a guy in Japan with a design for a subwoofer in a concrete form tube that only takes up about a square foot of floor space. Something similar might be worthwhile for you to consider as well. Do you know of any stores in Israel that sell raw drivers, amplifiers, and DIY speaker building components?

 

[yonyz]

That's around 900 cubic feet. Hmmm. Well, the Monoprice 9723 gets my vote. Or if you'd like something a little smaller, the BIC V1020 or the BK Electronics Gemini II might be a better choice. In any case, I think the Dayton SUB-1500 would be pretty inconvenient in a room that size.

Are you any good with wood working? I'm wondering if importing a subwoofer driver and amp only while building your own enclosure would give you a better value than importing the much larger and heavier finished product. For example, I've been helping a guy in Japan with a design for a subwoofer in a concrete form tube that only takes up about a square foot of floor space. Something similar might be worthwhile for you to consider as well. Do you know of any stores in Israel that sell raw drivers, amplifiers, and DIY speaker building components?

There's one store and they won't tell their items or prices over the phone or email. They're in my city, though. I'm not up for building an enclosure from scratch, though.

The Dayton and Monoprice will not work with 230V.

 

[rojo]

There's one store and they won't tell their items or prices over the phone or email. They're in my city, though. I'm not up for building an enclosure from scratch, though.

Oh well. It was worth considering, anyway. That's irritating when stores won't show you what they sell. It's like they don't want your business, isn't it? Well, mission accomplished. Anyway, I hope you find what you're looking for.

 

[yonyz]

Oh well. It was worth considering, anyway. That's irritating when stores won't show you what they sell. It's like they don't want your business, isn't it? Well, mission accomplished. Anyway, I hope you find what you're looking for.

Thank you.

Edit:

Someone on the hometheater.co.il forum told me the price for the PB-1000 from the local dealer and it's not cheaper than a custom import. $840. No SVS for me then.

Will keep track of used markets...

Opinions on B&W ASW 300? It's an 8 inch woofer with 100W, and 27hz lowest frequency at -3db.
Also found a B&W ASW 650 for the same price as the R-12SW.
Another find: Velodyne CHT-10R

 

[rojo]

Thank you.

Edit:

Someone on the hometheater.co.il forum told me the price for the PB-1000 from the local dealer and it's not cheaper than a custom import. $840. No SVS for me then.

Will keep track of used markets...

Opinions on B&W ASW 300? It's an 8 inch woofer with 100W, and 27hz lowest frequency at -3db.
Also found a B&W ASW 650 for the same price as the R-12SW.
Another find: Velodyne CHT-10R

B&W 8-inch sub, you can barely see measurements here. Looks like it's -10dB around 25Hz to me, which isn't surprising for an 8" sub. The Velodyne's frequency response looks similar, although Velodyne subs do have a pretty positive reputation for musicality.

 

[yonyz]

B&W 8-inch sub, you can barely see measurements here. Looks like it's -10dB around 25Hz to me, which isn't surprising for an 8" sub. The Velodyne's frequency response looks similar, although Velodyne subs do have a pretty positive reputation for musicality.

The B&W 650 has a 12 inch woofer. The Velodyne I mentioned has a 12 inch woofer, and here it says it's 25-140 +-3db.

http://www.velodyne.com/pdf/cht/cht-r_manual.pdf

 

[yonyz]

BIC customer support has just replied to my email. They say they're an internal jumper that switches it to 230V. They showed me a photo with instructions.

The specs say 22hz and above. Is that +-3db or +-6db?

Because on paper it looks better than the Klipsch R-12SW, and anything I've found so far.

One more question: someone might be willing to sell his GoldenEar ForceField 4 for a price within my budget, but he'll know for sure if he sells it or not in the "coming weeks". So I wonder, is it worth waiting for?

 

[rojo]

Remind me which model BIC you're talking about?

The GoldenEar Forcefield 4 retails for $700. Looks like a solid choice for someone with limited space. I think it would be worth waiting for. I'd guess it has an F3 in the mid-20's (just averaging the graphs I've seen for the Forcefield 3 and the Forcefield 5), but it will probably be tight, musical bass.

 

[yonyz]

Remind me which model BIC you're talking about?

The GoldenEar Forcefield 4 retails for $700. Looks like a solid choice for someone with limited space. I think it would be worth waiting for. I'd guess it has an F3 in the mid-20's (just averaging the graphs I've seen for the Forcefield 3 and the Forcefield 5), but it will probably be tight, musical bass.

The PL-200.

Shouldn't it be better than a ForceField due to the wider frequency response?
Based on what I've read, despite its $700 price tag, the FF4 isn't even as good as a $500 PB-1000. It has a unique design that allows it to be small and in turn makes it expensive for what you get.

Oh and there's a used (like new) R-110SW for $350 on Amazon. It's their newest series, and is said to be much better than previous recent models like the R-12SW and the SW-112.
It is the 10 inch version, though.

Too many options.

 

[rojo]

The PL-200.

Shouldn't it be better than a ForceField due to the wider frequency response?
Based on what I've read, despite its $700 price tag, the FF4 isn't even as good as a $500 PB-1000. It has a unique design that allows it to be small and in turn makes it expensive for what you get.

Oh and there's a used (like new) R-110SW for $350 on Amazon. It's their newest series, and is said to be much better than previous recent models like the R-12SW and the SW-112.
It is the 10 inch version, though.

Too many options.

Frequency response is only a small indicator of how a subwoofer will sound. Better quality drivers will have a symmetry in the excursion required to produce sound pressure at a given power level, whereas lesser quality drivers might have suspension that will cause a driver to move out farther than it moves in at a given voltage, or may lose efficiency as the voice coil travels past the magnetic field, or may suffer from a number of other issues. These sorts of problems can cause harmonic distortion -- harmonic, because the signal might contain only the fundamental tone, but the cone vibrates at the fundamental, +1 octave, +1.5 octaves, 2 octaves, 2.25 octaves, etc at varying degrees of amplitude, resulting in dirty bass. (And actually, even the best drivers suffer from this; but better drivers don't reveal the problem until ever higher amounts of power are applied.) Furthermore, if an enclosure is tuned below its driver's resonant frequency, that will skew the driver's impedance and excursion curves, and could introduce another source of harmonic distortion. Chuffing from the vents can also cause problems if the vents are too narrow. Improperly braced enclosures can cause sympathetic resonances.

Don't worry if very little of that makes sense to you. I bet most native English speakers would have difficulty understand it. I say all that to explain that there are just so many factors that determine whether a subwoofer will sound good. Even if the BIC is tuned lower than the GoldenEar, the GoldenEar is almost certainly the more refined and more musical option. @lsiberian did I get all that right?

 

[yonyz]

OK, better musicality. But isn't better extension more important for movies?