Brexit

[Swerd]

Back to Brexit (briefly)…

Nigel Farage resigns as leader of the UKIP http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36702468.

He told some whopper lies during the campaign, and now having sown a path of destruction, he runs away. Just what people look for in a politician.

 

[Chu Gai]

This is what the actual schedule for prayer looks like:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/practices/salat.shtml

If it's a regular 8 hour shift, you may have 1-2 10 minute breaks in a workday, one of which typically coincides with lunch. Not exactly scandalous behavior, or something that would appreciably impact a factory (as if all your other workers are robots who don't eat, go to the bathroom, smoke, etc).

That's a general schedule but the vast majority of Muslims I know rely upon an actual timetable whose set times vary for the simple reason that sunrise and sunset, hence the length of a day varies. Such charts are available from a large number of sources. This is the approach my father in law uses and he has the charts in several places in his home so as not to forget. According to Cargill which terminated about 150 workers after they'd been absent from work for 3 days (company policy) in protest, Cargill wanted the Muslims to break up the times a bit so that large groups would not be absent at the same time which would adversely affect production.

 

[Steve81]

According to Cargill which terminated about 150 workers after they'd been absent from work for 3 days (company policy) in protest, Cargill wanted the Muslims to break up the times a bit so that large groups would not be absent at the same time which would adversely affect production.

How did firing 150+ people affect production? The Cargill case is interesting since the plant had apparently not had a problem with the employees going to prayer for several years. The employees state that management had intimated a change in policy which lead to the protest. Of course Cargill denies that there was any change in policy.

http://www.denverpost.com/2015/12/31/cargill-tried-to-resolve-issues-before-firing-colorado-muslim-workers/

On Dec. 18, the Friday before employee protests began Dec. 21, “the workers were told: ‘If you want to pray, go home,’ ” CAIR spokesman Jaylani Hussein said. “To these employees, that is what it is. Maybe Cargill never changed its policy, but to these employees, they feel whatever the policy is, or how it is implemented, there was a change put in place,” Hussein said. Cargill provides a “reflection room” at the plant where observant Muslim workers are allowed to pray, something that has been available since 2009.
Hussein said depending on the season, the workers pray at different times of the day, typically taking five to 10 minutes away from their work. The time was carved out of a 15-minute break period or from the workers’ unpaid 30-minute lunch breaks.

“At no time did Cargill prevent people from prayer at Fort Morgan,” said Michael Martin, a spokesman for the Wichita-based company, which is part of the agribusiness giant Cargill Inc. ” Nor have we changed policies related to religious accommodation and attendance. This has been mischaracterized.”

Maybe there was just simple miscommunication. Maybe a line supervisor just doesn't like working with a bunch of Somali immigrants. Hard for an outside observer to say one way or the other what exactly happened. Seems like the current situation is a lose-lose proposition in the end though.

 

[TLS Guy]

Back to Brexit (briefly)…

Nigel Farage resigns as leader of the UKIP http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36702468.

He told some whopper lies during the campaign, and now having sown a path of destruction, he runs away. Just what people look for in a politician.

That is very unfair. Nigel Farage has fought this fight, for 20 years. Without him the UK would have no chance of regaining its independence.

Besides, Nigel is a southerner. UKIP stands to make gains in Labor's heartlands of the North, as Labor strife continues. I suspect they will pick a leader from the North and that we have not seen the last of UKIP.

UKIP did very well in the last local elections, and on the Kent County Council my brother leads for the conservatives, UKIP replaced Labor as the official opposition. My brother has been very pleased with this outcome, as he sees eye to eye with UKIP on most issues.

Meanwhile Jeremy Corbyn is squirming hard right now as he is getting one hell of grilling from his own MPs.

The Conservative leadership continues. Andea Leadsom seems to now be leading the Brexit charge. Theresa May has the most MP support. She was a lukewarm member of the Remain camp, which I regard as political opportunism.

I think there will be two candidates selected for member ship run off next week. My money is on a run off between Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom. That means we will have to wait until Sept 9 for the final result. Not much will happen until then.

Meanwhile Angel Merkel is trying to outs that drunken obstreperous EU president Claude Junker.

If she succeeds it means Germany to all intense purposes runs the EU. Claude Junker assumed the position despite voiciferous opposition from David Cameron and others.

 

[Chu Gai]

How did firing 150+ people affect production? The Cargill case is interesting since the plant had apparently not had a problem with the employees going to prayer for several years. The employees state that management had intimated a change in policy which lead to the protest. Of course Cargill denies that there was any change in policy.

http://www.denverpost.com/2015/12/31/cargill-tried-to-resolve-issues-before-firing-colorado-muslim-workers/





Maybe there was just simple miscommunication. Maybe a line supervisor just doesn't like working with a bunch of Somali immigrants. Hard for an outside observer to say one way or the other what exactly happened. Seems like the current situation is a lose-lose proposition in the end though.

I would imagine the firings, which mostly affected the second shift, caused some disruption and probably plenty of overtime. CAIR, who sees everything as islamophobia, is working with law firms and Cargill is being sued by a majority of those who were let go for religious discrimination. We will have to see where that goes as it'll be appealed regardless of the outcome. Cargill used to require a long period before dismissed employees could apply for reinstatement. It's since been changed to 30 days. It's worth keeping in mind that production schedules and work are dynamic enterprises.

 

[Chu Gai]

That is very unfair. Nigel Farage has fought this fight, for 20 years. Without him the UK would have no chance of regaining its independence.

Besides, Nigel is a southerner. UKIP stands to make gains in Labor's heartlands of the North, as Labor strife continues. I suspect they will pick a leader from the North and that we have not seen the last of UKIP.

UKIP did very well in the last local elections, and on the Kent County Council my brother leads for the conservatives, UKIP replaced Labor as the official opposition. My brother has been very pleased with this outcome, as he sees eye to eye with UKIP on most issues.

Meanwhile Jeremy Corbyn is squirming hard right now as he is getting one hell of grilling from his own MPs.

The Conservative leadership continues. Andea Leadsom seems to now be leading the Brexit charge. Theresa May has the most MP support. She was a lukewarm member of the Remain camp, which I regard as political opportunism.

I think there will be two candidates selected for member ship run off next week. My money is on a run off between Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom. That means we will have to wait until Sept 9 for the final result. Not much will happen until then.

Meanwhile Angel Merkel is trying to outs that drunken obstreperous EU president Claude Junker.

If she succeeds it means Germany to all intense purposes runs the EU. Claude Junker assumed the position despite voiciferous opposition from David Cameron and others.

Certainly there must be some sort of medical leave for such an illness, no? Like athletes, I think politicians should be subject to random drug tests.

As for Germany looking to run the EU, the Italian MEP, Anne Chovi has said, "this smells fishy to me."

 

[markw]

So what are you suggesting Mark, that we suspend constitutional rights for Muslim citizens?

I suggest we do whatever is necessary to prevent what's going on in Europe from happening here. And, believe me, it IS happening here.

If that's what it takes, so be it. Here's a good start

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/muslims-try-pass-sharia-law-alabama-citizens-say-hell-watch/

Again, you must like what's happening to Europe. You really that for this country?

Like little kids, always pushing the limit to see what they can get away with, hoping to wear mommy or daddy down until they give in.

slowly but surely, step by step...

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/01/05/shariah-in-american-courts-the-expanding-incursion-of-islamic-law-in-the-u-s-legal-system/

Here's another one

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/muslims-are-angry-at-texas-mayor-after-she-stops-sharia-court-here-is-her-epic-response/

Now, I REALLY like that lady. she's got more stones than most p0liticians. Here's another tidbit.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/03/us/mohammed-drawing-contest-shooting/

BTW, those last two links are from the same town as the "Clock kid". coincidence?

I don't know about you guys but I'd really like to leave a free world for my great grandkids and seeing us being slowly transformed into another culture by being surrendered, one small step at a time in the name of political correctness, sickens me.

Phase two, Steve. And same for you Irv.

 

[Swerd]

That is very unfair. Nigel Farage has fought this fight, for 20 years. Without him the UK would have no chance of regaining its independence.

Considering the unfair, prejudicial, and downright false claims he made during the campaign, I think it's not at all unfair.

His words and actions demonstrate an ability to insult and disrupt, to 'throw verbal bombs', but little else. When it came to taking criticism in return, much less to showing an ability to lead a divided public, he showed his true colors.

 

[Steve81]

If that's what it takes, so be it.

And that's precisely how you wave goodbye to the freedom you claim to cherish. Once you say that one group of Americans is less equal, you might as well kiss the land of the free goodbye.

 

[markw]

if that's the best you've got, It's been fun. Bye. Enjoy your prayer rug.

 

[Steve81]

Bye

 

[highfigh]

This is what the actual schedule for prayer looks like:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/practices/salat.shtml

If it's a regular 8 hour shift, you may have 1-2 10 minute breaks in a workday, one of which typically coincides with lunch. Not exactly scandalous behavior, or something that would appreciably impact a factory (as if all your other workers are robots who don't eat, go to the bathroom, smoke, etc).

You're assuming the 8 hour shift is during hours that are within the earliest and latest times set forth in Islam. I don't know the shift hours, but everything I have heard about this case had to do with the Muslims demanding three breaks. The break times are usually 20 minutes with a half hour at lunch, none of which is set in stone unless it's a union shop and then, it's negotiated. The company has stated the cost to the company for the added breaks and I would have to say the cost is more than what would be acceptable to a business (said to be over $100K).

they already get three breaks- it's their choice to be a good employee/supporter of their family and keep their job or modify their prayer schedule. If the religion considers praying at "the wrong times" to be a sin, I wouldn't want to be a member. If they want total control over their prayer schedule, they should start their own company.

And don't give me a hard time about the last comment- plenty of immigrants have their own business after a short time in the US.

Nobody said it was scandalous, but I don't think they're entitled to this. No other religion demands that the followers spend that much time praying- while I don't have a problem with a religion demanding this, I do have a problem with the followers demanding that their employer change their policies toward this when the cost to the company is so high.

 

[Steve81]

You're assuming the 8 hour shift is during hours that are within the earliest and latest times set forth in Islam. I don't know the shift hours, but everything I have heard about this case had to do with the Muslims demanding three breaks.

At this time of year in Fort Morgan, CO, sunrise is 5:23AM, and sunset is 8:28PM. Even with natural variation through the year, that'd be quite the shift to extend from before sunrise (1st prayer) to sunset (4th prayer, with one more between sunset and midnight). A NPR article on the topic also suggests that it was over as little as one 5 minute prayer break:

Praying at work involves leaving the cutting room floor, changing out of a blood-spattered frock, and returning after five minutes. The timing of the prayer during the plant's second shift can change with the seasons and requires some flexibility in the plant's operations to accommodate.
....
After four years of work at Cargill, Sadiyo says, she became accustomed to taking these short breaks, with little to no pushback from management.

In mid-December, the sisters say that changed. They say a shift supervisor told a group of 11 employees they could no longer leave their stations on the meat-cutting line to pray. "Four times we pray in our homes," Nurto says. "Only one time [per shift] we pray in Cargill. And they say we don't have time to go to prayer time."

Although Cargill disputes this claim, the incident snowballed. The sisters joined with nearly 200 other workers, staying home to protest what they saw as a change in company policy. Until then, they say, they'd been allowed to take a short five-minute break to pray. After three days of failing to show up, they were fired.

Per the Denver Post article I linked, earlier, the employees already carved their prayer time out of their standard 15 min break or their 30 min lunch time. Either way, I assume the plant supervisors also monitor people's bathroom breaks heavily if a single 5 minute prayer break is that big of a problem. Heaven help you if you're a diabetic that needs to

 

[highfigh]

At this time of year in Fort Morgan, CO, sunrise is 5:23AM, and sunset is 8:28PM. Even with natural variation through the year, that'd be quite the shift to extend from before sunrise (1st prayer) to sunset (4th prayer, with one more between sunset and midnight). A NPR article on the topic also suggests that it was over as little as one 5 minute prayer break:



Per the Denver Post article I linked, earlier, the employees already carved their prayer time out of their standard 15 min break or their 30 min lunch time. I assume the plant supervisors also monitor people's bathroom breaks heavily if a single 5 minute prayer break is that big of a problem.

Well, Ariens is in Wisconsin but if they want to pray 5 times, they get their first around sunrise and after sunset when they're off of work, but not during Winter.

BTW- not all of the Muslims were fired, not all of them left the company.

 

[Steve81]

Well, Ariens is in Wisconsin but if they want to pray 5 times, they get their first around sunrise and after sunset when they're off of work, but not during Winter.

Different story I guess. The Cargill plant I'm talking about is in Fort Morgan, Colorado.

 

[TLS Guy]

Considering the unfair, prejudicial, and downright false claims he made during the campaign, I think it's not at all unfair.

His words and actions demonstrate an ability to insult and disrupt, to 'throw verbal bombs', but little else. When it came to taking criticism in return, much less to showing an ability to lead a divided public, he showed his true colors.

The claims were NOT downright false. The claims that were made were not made by Nigel Farage. The accounting on EU payments is complex. The membership to the EU is 350 million GBP per week, which is $550,000 per week. But due to rebates and farm subsidies deducted at source the payments are 250,000 GBP per week, which is $375,000 per week. That is an awful lot of money for the misery and bossiness inflicted by the EU.

Andrea Leadsom has already pledged most of that money to the NHS if she is elected leader.

By the way Nigel Farage was drawing attention to the rebates throughout the campaign. The $350,000 million figure though technically correct came from the leave campaign and not UKIP.

Nigel Farage has been correct in having the EU in his sights and will now devote time to help leave campaigns in other EU countries.

My brother James has just returned from a spell in the Loire Valley. He was visiting a relative of his wife who has lived in France for many years. My brother let quite a number of French people. He was actually not surprised that those he spoke to were pleased with the Leave victory, and hope for similar results in their election. There is increasing support for Marie Le Pen who is pledged to take France out of the EU. There is more than an outside chance she will win the presidency.

Geert Wilders is on track for a win in Holland and he is pledged to take Holland out. I will be surprised if the UK is the only country pulling out of the EU. Most countries in the EU have a leave movement.

The sooner the EU is broken up the better off for everyone.

The Chancellor George Osborne has said he will create a tax haven right on the EU doorstep if the EU try to clip the wings of the financial centers in the City of London.

There is going to be hardball and ending unlimited EU migration will not be negotiable.

Interestingly Theresa May the Home Secretary and a leading contender to replace David Cameron has refused to guarantee the right of EU citizens already in the UK to stay there. This is interesting as she was in the remain campaign. Interestingly Andrea Leasdom a contender from the Leave campaign has pledged that those EU citizens already in the UK can stay.

I think the negotiations to leave the EU are going to be hard fought.

 

[herbu]

having sown a path of destruction, he runs away. Just what people look for in a politician.

That's exactly what I wish some of our politicians would do... (the "run away" part, having already accomplished the "path of destruction" part).

 

[Chu Gai]

I'm sure the stay crowd will be playing the xenophobia/racist/bigot card along with the evils of nationalism with parallels to WW2. They always do that to shut people up and throttle discussions.

 

[Dan]

I wish they would run away too. Of course many, after making a career bashing Washington while working in it and making the government worse, don't go back to their "home" but stay in the DC area and become highly paid lobbyists. From bad to worse.

 

[TLS Guy]

So the UK will have a female prime minister.

Theresa May has the overwhelming support of Conservative MPs. Andrea Leadsom is the second choice. It now goes to a postal vote of the Conservative party members.

May was for Remain, but now say she is a committed Brexiter.

There was a hilarious open mic incident involving Ken Clarke, a former cabinet minister and one of Margaret Thatcher's "wets".

Anyhow Theresa May seems to rejoice in being called a "Bloody difficult woman" and had this to say: - "Ken Clarke says I am a bloody difficult woman. The next man to find that out will be Jean-Claude Juncker.”