Mass shooting in Orlando - Politics

[Ponzio]

It's good to see the "black helicopter" crowd come out of their shelters & burrows. Just in time to vote for the presumptive Republican smacked a$$ and congenital braggart/liar, The Trumpster [aka The Orange Kist Kid]. Beam me up Scotty.

And then we have "Cankle Girl" [makes retching noise].

My poor country.

 

[everettT]

Present and accounted for.

 

[Chu Gai]

Source? CNN seems to suggest different:
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/03/29/profile.mcveigh/

You're right. I read too quickly and confused his father with him. Only instance I came across old Tim's voting was a mention that he supported a Libertarian candidate.

 

[Alex2507]

Your first point about liking the fact that the police understand they aren't the only ones with that sort of lethal force goes two ways and in the other one, it's fear that they aren't the only ones because, when someone goes off the rails and has these guns, it's a problem for the police and the general public. We already have people taking pot shots at Police, Fire and EMS members and so far, I don't remember the police marauding through the streets of any city, mowing down people in large numbers.

Search for images of police violence during the civil rights movement.

Are you trying to take away a gun I don't have?

The guns are out there and the crazies already have them.

You too can opt not to have a machine gun but let Rick keep his.

 

[psbfan9]

The Orlando shooter was mentally disturbed, that's undeniable. What is deniable, is his isis affiliation. Just a few months ago he pledged allegiance to al nusra frront.. al nusra front is an enemy of isis.
This 'thing' was predisposed to violence at an early age.
I still maintain it was an act of religious violence.


We can do this type of B.S. all day.......

The acts below are instances of right-wing violence that are unequivocally committed by people who are openly hostile to liberalism. While this does not mean these killers are Republicans, it is quite clear that they are RIGHT-WINGERS:

July 18, 1984 James Oliver Huberty, who told his wife he hated “children, Mexicans and the United States” opened fire inside the McDonald’s Restaurant in San Ysidro, CA using a Browning P-35 Hi-Power 9mm pistol, Winchester 1200 pump-action 12-gauge shotgun, and an Israeli Military Industries 9mm Carbine (Uzi) – all legally acquired. He killed 21 and injured 19.

Aug. 10, 1999 White supremacist Buford O. Furrow, Jr., fired 70 rounds with an Uzi-type submachine-gun inside the lobby of the Jewish Community Center in Granada Hills, CA wounding three children, a teenage counselor and an office worker. He then carjacked a woman’s Toyota at gunpoint, dumped it behind a motel and murdered US Postal Worker Joseph Santos with a Glock 9mm handgun.

July 27, 2008 Former U.S. Army private, Jim David Atkinsson, who hated Democrats, liberals, African Americans and homosexuals, using a Remington Model 48 12-gauge shotgun, murdered two people and injured seven others inside the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, TN.

After Obama’s inauguration, white supremacist Keith Luke went on a killing spree in Brockton, Massachusetts. His goal was to kill as many Jews, blacks and Hispanics as possible. When questioned by investigators, the deranged gunman who had stockpiled hundreds of rounds of ammunition, proclaimed that he was fighting the extinction of the white race.

Dannie Baker, a former Republican campaign volunteer shot five Chilean immigrants in Florida. Those who knew him said he was obsessed with the fear that illegal immigrants were taking over the country.

April of 2009, Richard Popalowski, a white supremacist in Pittsburgh, shot and killed three police officers following a domestic disturbance call. He apparently thought that Obama was part of a government conspiracy to seize all guns, and he feared the government would take his guns away.

Later the same month, a Fort Walton Beach Florida man who thought the Obama administration was conspiring against him, shot and murdered two sheriff’s deputies.

On July 18, 2010 Byron Williams, an angry unemployed man, was arrested by police after they discovered a car full of weapons and ammunition that he had planned to use to kill progressives. He was on his way to the non-profit Tides Foundation Center, a favorite target of vitriol from Glenn Beck’s radio show.

 

[psbfan9]

The radical, far right, Supreme court justice Antonin Scalia's thought on the 2nd amendment;

Scalia, a card-carrying conservative and stalwart of the Court’s right-leaning majority, told “Fox News Sunday” that the Second Amendment’s language allowing citizens the right to own weapons doesn’t mean they can own any weapon they want.

Scalia, states: “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited…”. It is “…not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.”

I used to hunt, for food, not trophy, with rifles and shotguns. I used to own guns.
I am however of the opinion no average citizen needs to own a military style weapon or armor piercing ammunition. They are not suitable for home defense or hunting.

Even the family of the inventor of the AR-15 say, "It was designed as a military weapon.

"He would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events"

The family of the inventor of the AR-15 rifle says that the gun was not intended for civilian use but for military purposes.

“Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News. “He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events.”

Eugene Stoner, an ex-marine and the rifle’s inventor, never used his AR-15 for sport, kept it for personal defense, or even owned one. His family said he made millions by using his design, but only for military sales.

“After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle,” Stoner’s family explained, saying that their father wanted to make the “most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military.”

 

[KEW]

I think the problem is plain Political Bias.
The way that's easily exposed, is below:
If we were all truly interested in saving lives.... we would outlaw everything that has caused multiple deaths.

If we were free of bias we would research the death rate from medical mistakes, and learn they supplant the death rate of guns.... so do drownings.
We would outlaw alcohol.
We would ban swimming.
We would ban box cutters, since they we responsible for 3,000 deaths during Sept 11, 2001
We would ban ice cream and bacon cheese burgers... (sorry Oscar)

I know you are being factious, but you are entirely missing my point, which is how available should the weapons to support a massacre be?

It is an entirely different thing if someone dies early due to their own gluttony.

I also understand that there are other ways to implement a massacre, but since they require some combination of creativity, research, purchasing substances which may or may not put you on a "watch list", a place to assemble your weapon, and the risk of the device not functioning properly; I believe the inconvenience of these things would be a barrier to many people. The "great" thing about using the assault weapon is you have done nothing illegal until you are there pulling the trigger - it is a no-risk situation until "it's on"!

That just seems too easy for anyone to implement. I like to think at least some of the people who would commit such crimes are not thinking straight and don't always have the ability to create and execute an effective plan. But a good semi-automatic weapon makes it too easy!

 

[KEW]

Them knowing I might have a bazooka also meets my intent. Basically I want the population having access to what the police have access to ... mostly, more or less but what about that video? That AR15 was pitched pretty effectively for home-D. To be clear, the AR15 is a weapon that you would like to see removed from public access? The only reason I don't have one is that they're $800 and I'd rather have good speakers. I want one of those hand canon 50 cal Desert Eagle monsters too. How much are they?

I'd agree that the AR-15 is an effective home defense weapon, but I also think a shotgun is good for many. But I would rather have a pistol the rifle has the following two major drawbacks as a home defense weapon:
1) It is large - unlike a pistol, you cannot have it hidden in a place that is convenient for pulling it out and using it with out being overly conspicuous.
2) It is unwieldy - unless you have warning someone is coming, I'd rather have a pistol. If you wake up with someone in your bedroom, you stand a chance with a pistol on your nightstand, but by the time you grab a rifle and get it positioned in your hands and aimed he has had time to jump you with a lowly knife. And once he is within 2 feet of you, the rifle is pretty much worthless.

The real advantage of rifles is accuracy over distance, but for most homes, if you are practiced with a pistol, it is effective over any distances you would be shooting.

Nonetheless, let's say the assault rifle is a better home defense weapon. Then I would ask you how much more effective, and the truth is not tremendously. And, for me, that is the rub, because if I ask how much more effective is it for conducting a mass shooting, the answer is much more.

IOW, the potential cost is much greater than the potential benefit to society of these weapons.

 

[Chu Gai]

It's good to see the "black helicopter" crowd come out of their shelters & burrows. Just in time to vote for the presumptive Republican smacked a$$ and congenital braggart/liar, The Trumpster [aka The Orange Kist Kid]. Beam me up Scotty.

And then we have "Cankle Girl" [makes retching noise].

My poor country.

I've occasionally cringed but have enjoyed this run up to the election. For perhaps over 30 years, I've disliked Congress and with that both political parties. The dislike has only intensified as the years have come and gone. My overall impression is that the parties pander strongly to whatever constituency they think will keep them in power or elect them. I forget what news program it was but they discovered a building, not too far from the Capitol, where elected officials went for about 4 hours a day to cold call essentially for support and money. That's half a day when these c&$@!suckers aren't working for us. Then to try and sell how hard they're working and periodically vote themselves a raise?

I like what both Trump and Sanders have done, Trump more so, with blowing things up. It needs to be blown up IMO. The parties are dysfunctional and look more to preserve their existence and control rather than being responsive to the country. I got fooled once by Obama. Maybe I'll get fooled by Trump. I hope he can use his business skills to get people to work together and improve the lot of all. The rancor and nastiness, we'll all I can say that in the history of American politics much worse has transpired. Doesn't excuse it but just saying it's not unknown.

 

[Chu Gai]

I'd agree that the AR-15 is an effective home defense weapon, but I also think a shotgun is good for many. But I would rather have a pistol the rifle has the following two major drawbacks as a home defense weapon:
1) It is large - unlike a pistol, you cannot have it hidden in a place that is convenient for pulling it out and using it with out being overly conspicuous.
2) It is unwieldy - unless you have warning someone is coming, I'd rather have a pistol. If you wake up with someone in your bedroom, you stand a chance with a pistol on your nightstand, but by the time you grab a rifle and get it positioned in your hands and aimed he has had time to jump you with a lowly knife. And once he is within 2 feet of you, the rifle is pretty much worthless.

The real advantage of rifles is accuracy over distance, but for most homes, if you are practiced with a pistol, it is effective over any distances you would be shooting.

Nonetheless, let's say the assault rifle is a better home defense weapon. Then I would ask you how much more effective, and the truth is not tremendously. And, for me, that is the rub, because if I ask how much more effective is it for conducting a mass shooting, the answer is much more.

IOW, the potential cost is much greater than the potential benefit to society of these weapons.

As I've said earlier Kurt, until the autopsy results are released, we won't know which of his weapons inflicted the injuries and to what extent. This also holds true wrt friendly fire.

 

[everettT]

You do understand that your attempt to link right wing nut jobs to white supremacy is historicaly inaccurate don't you? Just like the Democrats pushed for equal rights to black Americans, you know that one too, right? Yes bad people on either side of the process that are extremes, and extreme isn't good. So no matter who it is, I want my right to protect myself and my family and guns are not at the heart of this debate. Currently I know of no extremist group other than radical islamist that are pledging harm to the US and it's citizens, maybe if they carried out a mass attack on say Canada, your views might be a little different. I didn't loose any friends on 911, but I sure feel the pain of all that did.

Our AG announced today on her round of Sunday talk shows that the FBIs release of the 911 call will be edited to remove all Islamic references in order not to promote terrorism. I see it as a narrative to cover and hide the truth. When the idiot said he was doing it so the US wouldn't bomb his, his, country, that Flys in face of him being American. This was an egregious act and the solution to stop further acts does not rely on gun control.


Going back to my underground bunker now

The Orlando shooter was mentally disturbed, that's undeniable. What is deniable, is his isis affiliation. Just a few months ago he pledged allegiance to al nusra frront.. al nusra front is an enemy of isis.
This 'thing' was predisposed to violence at an early age.
I still maintain it was an act of religious violence.


We can do this type of B.S. all day.......

The acts below are instances of right-wing violence that are unequivocally committed by people who are openly hostile to liberalism. While this does not mean these killers are Republicans, it is quite clear that they are RIGHT-WINGERS:

July 18, 1984 James Oliver Huberty, who told his wife he hated “children, Mexicans and the United States” opened fire inside the McDonald’s Restaurant in San Ysidro, CA using a Browning P-35 Hi-Power 9mm pistol, Winchester 1200 pump-action 12-gauge shotgun, and an Israeli Military Industries 9mm Carbine (Uzi) – all legally acquired. He killed 21 and injured 19.

Aug. 10, 1999 White supremacist Buford O. Furrow, Jr., fired 70 rounds with an Uzi-type submachine-gun inside the lobby of the Jewish Community Center in Granada Hills, CA wounding three children, a teenage counselor and an office worker. He then carjacked a woman’s Toyota at gunpoint, dumped it behind a motel and murdered US Postal Worker Joseph Santos with a Glock 9mm handgun.

July 27, 2008 Former U.S. Army private, Jim David Atkinsson, who hated Democrats, liberals, African Americans and homosexuals, using a Remington Model 48 12-gauge shotgun, murdered two people and injured seven others inside the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, TN.

After Obama’s inauguration, white supremacist Keith Luke went on a killing spree in Brockton, Massachusetts. His goal was to kill as many Jews, blacks and Hispanics as possible. When questioned by investigators, the deranged gunman who had stockpiled hundreds of rounds of ammunition, proclaimed that he was fighting the extinction of the white race.

Dannie Baker, a former Republican campaign volunteer shot five Chilean immigrants in Florida. Those who knew him said he was obsessed with the fear that illegal immigrants were taking over the country.

April of 2009, Richard Popalowski, a white supremacist in Pittsburgh, shot and killed three police officers following a domestic disturbance call. He apparently thought that Obama was part of a government conspiracy to seize all guns, and he feared the government would take his guns away.

Later the same month, a Fort Walton Beach Florida man who thought the Obama administration was conspiring against him, shot and murdered two sheriff’s deputies.

On July 18, 2010 Byron Williams, an angry unemployed man, was arrested by police after they discovered a car full of weapons and ammunition that he had planned to use to kill progressives. He was on his way to the non-profit Tides Foundation Center, a favorite target of vitriol from Glenn Beck’s radio show.

 

[Chu Gai]

The radical, far right, Supreme court justice Antonin Scalia's thought on the 2nd amendment;

Scalia, a card-carrying conservative and stalwart of the Court’s right-leaning majority, told “Fox News Sunday” that the Second Amendment’s language allowing citizens the right to own weapons doesn’t mean they can own any weapon they want.

Scalia, states: “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited…”. It is “…not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.”

I used to hunt, for food, not trophy, with rifles and shotguns. I used to own guns.
I am however of the opinion no average citizen needs to own a military style weapon or armor piercing ammunition. They are not suitable for home defense or hunting.

Even the family of the inventor of the AR-15 say, "It was designed as a military weapon.

"He would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events"

The family of the inventor of the AR-15 rifle says that the gun was not intended for civilian use but for military purposes.

“Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News. “He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events.”

Eugene Stoner, an ex-marine and the rifle’s inventor, never used his AR-15 for sport, kept it for personal defense, or even owned one. His family said he made millions by using his design, but only for military sales.

“After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle,” Stoner’s family explained, saying that their father wanted to make the “most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military.”

Some call Scalia a radical, right wing extremist. Others a strict constitutionalist. It's noteworthy tha Ginsberg spoke highly of him and was a close friend where both shared a mutual love of the opera. Kagen and he were also friends and often went hunting together.

As to Stoner, who is to say what his thoughts would have been if he'd lived through these times? The dead don't speak. His children speculate but that's all it is.

As to what weapons are suitable for hunting, that depends. If you're hunting feral pigs which travel in large packs, I've seen pickup trucks with what looked to be machine guns mounted on the back.

 

[herbu]

Oh geez!!! What do you suppose is the life expectancy of the driver? Ooops!

 

[highfigh]

Around here, cops just carry pistols and I would think a pistol would be the preferred weapon of defense (assuming they don't call ahead so you can get ready).

I agree about liking an armed population, but why do they need to be armed with weapons designed for mass shooting/warfare? Why isn't a "six shooter" enough? If the police come knocking at your door, knowing there might be a simple gun on the other side should meet your intent. An assault weapons only adds if you plan to attack many from afar if a rifle).

PS-I use "six shooter" because everyone knows what that is. I'm sure the term semi-automatic pistol includes weapons which are capable of a massacre such as the Orlando incident.

Police departments have used shotguns for decades when more than a handgun is needed and for long-range, always rifles. They may keep the long guns in the trunk, but they carry them.

Pistol is often used when the gun is a revolver, but it's a distinction without much of a difference.

The guy had apparently been there several times and because he knew it was a gun free zone, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. I just read that the club had an extra security guard (uniformed police officer) who fired at Mateen, but I'd like to know why he didn't hit the dirtbag.

 

[Rickster71]

This thread reminds me of The Stockholm Syndrome.
For those not familiar:
Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.

We're relying on an ineffective, wasteful government to save and protect us. As a distraction, they get the political parties to oppose each other with the usual Dog and Pony Show. We pay government more and more money and they become more bloated and ineffective.

I'm convinced terrorism has been used for so long because it's unbeatable, cheap and effective.
We're paying trillions in taxes to a government that knows all it can do is pass another "Feel Good" law in response to the emotional knee jerk reactions of some.

We're paying a government to legislate us into victims.

Criminals have been ignoring laws since the beginning of time.
Does anyone really think a criminal or terrorist is going to follow a new law?

 

[Steve81]

I just read that the club had an extra security guard (uniformed police officer) who fired at Mateen, but I'd like to know why he didn't hit the dirtbag.

Because hitting a piece of paper at a range is substantially different than hitting a live moving target while under extreme stress.

 

[highfigh]

Search for images of police violence during the civil rights movement.

Are you trying to take away a gun I don't have?

The guns are out there and the crazies already have them.

You too can opt not to have a machine gun but let Rick keep his.

I don't need to search the videos- I watched the live news coverage when it happened but they didn't go marauding through the streets. They were fired on, rocks, bottles and Molotov Cocktails were thrown at them. The police are far different from the way they were at that time- Milwaukee had a police chief who maintained order with an iron fist and crime has risen steadily since that time. At the time, it was whole departments that might be excessively violent while now, it's usually a small number of officers.

I'm not saying the police don't kill innocent people, but the '60s were totally different from the present. Back then, the news reporters didn't have the luxury of time to allow them to editorialize the way they do now and many times, the actual footage was accompanied by gasps and stunned silence. I would recommend watching without the sound, so you can see what was happening, rather than listening to commentary that came later. MKE had three days of rioting and the city hasn't been the same, since. Our neighbor had a men's clothing store at ground zero for the MKE riots and they burned him out without giving a damn that he was serving their community. The spot where that building was located is still vacant.

 

[highfigh]

Because hitting a piece of paper at a range is substantially different than hitting a live moving target while under extreme stress.

A 15 year veteran of that department didn't have the required training? GMAB!

 

[highfigh]

It's good to see the "black helicopter" crowd come out of their shelters & burrows. Just in time to vote for the presumptive Republican smacked a$$ and congenital braggart/liar, The Trumpster [aka The Orange Kist Kid]. Beam me up Scotty.

And then we have "Cankle Girl" [makes retching noise].

My poor country.

But her cankles go all the way to her arm pits.

You don't like Trumplestiltskin?

 

[Steve81]

A 15 year veteran of that department didn't have the required training? GMAB!

Training helps, but even with that training, real world accuracy is less than 20%. Believe it or not, but the real world is nothing like what you see on TV and in movies.

http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-the-science-behind-police-shooting-bystanders/

According to a 2008 RAND Corporation study evaluating the New York Police Department’s firearm training, between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate during gunfights was just 18 percent. When suspects did not return fire, police officers hit their targets 30 percent of the time.

The data show what any police officer who has ever been involved in a shooting can tell you–firing accurately in a stressful situation is extremely hard. In an article for TIME last year, Amanda Ripley looked what happens in the brain and body when shots are fired. The brain stem sends out signals that cause blood vessels to constrict and hormones to surge. Studies have shown that eyesight becomes narrower (literally tunnel vision) under such conditions. People who have been in gunfights describe hearing very little and perceieve time slowing down. Amid this chaos, as police officers have to make difficult, split-second decisions, humans can lose motor skills as the body reverts to basic fight or flight instincts.