Room Layout?

[KenM10759]

If the MLP is much off-center the need for a center speaker becomes paramount for movies & TV. How much off center is acceptable depends upon the soundstage presented by the L-R speakers.

I never have mine on even for the times I'm using NAD's "Enhanced Stereo" version of multi-channel music.

 

[speakerman39]

You probably could do without a center speaker though I wouldn't understand the dual subs just for music, most of which doesn't need that much bass. Might as well get one and listen. You'll have enough distance between the speakers that it should make quite a bit of difference.

Ken, I do prefer music to HT. Just don't seem to watch many movies or watch much tv. Usually just listening to my music. Having dual subs enhances the over all experience for me. In fact, I will probably be adding a 3rd S1500 very soon. It is going to go here if at all possible:

That is directly to the left of the MLP. However, when I use the Room Simulator (REW) it makes it very clear that is NOT a good idea to place a 3rd S1500 there. But, I have not gotten to the point of taking measurements just yet. Am a ways off before doing so. Want to see how accurate the Room Simulator is. In the ned, hope that i can place a 3rd S1500 more near-filed directly to the left of MLP.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

You won't need a center speaker this why I say speaker distance is key, so the Singer/Movie Dialogue will be front and center(you'll see/hear it). Since you do have a surround receiver and you are thrifty a center would be nice, but not really needed. It's a beautiful thing when you close your eyes and it's like Fiona Apple, Elvis or Kate is right there in the middle.

Especially Kate.....LOL!!!! But, you know Fiona is a hottie too!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

How far apart are the speakers? How many inches/feet from the left side wall/right side wall and front wall?

Alex, when measuring said distances, do I measure from the edge of the Ultras or more central? Does it matter if I measure them uniformly? Just want to make sure that I am doing it right......LOL!!!!!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[fuzz092888]

I usually measure from the edge of the speaker.

Also, for me, I found the best imaging and soundstage with the Ultra's toed in so that they crossed just behind the main LP.

 

[speakerman39]

I usually measure from the edge of the speaker.

Also, for me, I found the best imaging and soundstage with the Ultra's toed in so that they crossed just behind the main LP.

Thanks! I will get some measurements once I move everything off of my audio stand and unto my tv stand. Will also move the S1500's on each side of my tv stand. Now that the Ultras will be further apart, it looks like a center channel speakers may be needed. Not sure I want to spend that much for an Ultra center though. Will also toe in the Ultras just as you mentioned. Thanks for the tips Alex!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[fuzz092888]

You could always buy a used center or you could get someone to build you an overnight sensations center or swope center and ship it to you.

Figure kit price + $100-200 and you've got a center channel.

http://meniscusaudio.com/overnight-sensation-center-p-1300.html

http://meniscusaudio.com/swope-center-p-1335.html

More expensive, but Dennis' ER15 center

http://meniscusaudio.com/er15-center-p-1388.html

 

[speakerman39]

You could always buy a used center or you could get someone to build you an overnight sensations center or swope center and ship it to you.

Figure kit price + $100-200 and you've got a center channel.

http://meniscusaudio.com/overnight-sensation-center-p-1300.html

http://meniscusaudio.com/swope-center-p-1335.html

More expensive, but Dennis' ER15 center

http://meniscusaudio.com/er15-center-p-1388.html

Thanks a bunch, but I am not a DIY guy. Have some other options out there that I am considering. Will know soon if I really even need a center channel. But, it is looking like I will. Thanks for the links.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[fuzz092888]

Thanks a bunch, but I am not a DIY guy. Have some other options out there that I am considering. Will know soon if I really even need a center channel. But, it is looking like I will. Thanks for the links.

Cheers,

Phil

That's why I said to get someone else to build it for you.

 

[speakerman39]

That's why I said to get someone else to build it for you.

I know several people that could easily build any speaker that I want built. However, getting them to do it is another story. Have some installer friends that are very talented, but they work so much that leaves them with very little time. Other than that, I have no idea who could build them.

Have talked to Ed Mullen. He told me the Prime center is similarly voiced. As such, Ed said the Prime center would work well with the Ultras. I like the price of a B-stock Prime center better. But, the new Chane A2.4 will be out soon. Seriously, considering ordering (3) of them when they do. Just may have to put the Ultras up for sale.

Wanted to order a set of the JBL 530's. But, now they will NOT be in stock until August 5th. Was supposed to be in stock tomorrow. Not sure if I will ever get around to ordering them now. Just have to wait and see what happens first. The Chanes have my full attention right now. Already have their stands. If nothing else, I may just use an A2.4 as my center. Certainly something I am considering at the moment.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KenM10759]

I thought you just recently got the SVS Ultra speakers, so why make a practically lateral change so soon? If you wait, enjoy what you have and save up for a truly outstanding stand mount speaker (Ascend Sierra 2, KEF LS50, Sonus Faber Venere 1.5, Focal Aria 906, Revel Performa M206, etc.)

If you just pick up the Prime center for now and take your time auditioning better, you'll be happier with the "next generation."

 

[fuzz092888]

I know several people that could easily build any speaker that I want built. However, getting them to do it is another story. Have some installer friends that are very talented, but they work so much that leaves them with very little time. Other than that, I have no idea who could build them.

A kit like this could be put together in an afternoon and finished an another, depending on how you wanted it finished. These are sealed centers that are extremely simple to put together. Just a thought since it would save money and get you a great center, if the Ultra center is too pricey.

Have talked to Ed Mullen. He told me the Prime center is similarly voiced. As such, Ed said the Prime center would work well with the Ultras. I like the price of a B-stock Prime center better. But, the new Chane A2.4 will be out soon. Seriously, considering ordering (3) of them when they do. Just may have to put the Ultras up for sale.

Doesn't make sense to me. At best you're looking at a lateral move performance wise and a step down in finish. $737 shipped for 3 of them (assuming they hit the same price point) leaves you $137 more than what you're likely to get for the Ultras if you sell.

Wanted to order a set of the JBL 530's. But, now they will NOT be in stock until August 5th. Was supposed to be in stock tomorrow. Not sure if I will ever get around to ordering them now. Just have to wait and see what happens first. The Chanes have my full attention right now. Already have their stands. If nothing else, I may just use an A2.4 as my center. Certainly something I am considering at the moment.

Cheers,

Phil

Wouldn't be a bad option, although for $121 more you could have a B-stock Ultra center that is voiced to go with the Ultras.

 

[speakerman39]

I thought you just recently got the SVS Ultra speakers, so why make a practically lateral change so soon? If you wait, enjoy what you have and save up for a truly outstanding stand mount speaker (Ascend Sierra 2, KEF LS50, Sonus Faber Venere 1.5, Focal Aria 906, Revel Performa M206, etc.)

If you just pick up the Prime center for now and take your time auditioning better, you'll be happier with the "next generation."

Yes, I did just recently get the Ultras. Am very happy with them. However, the original plan was to keep my Polk RTi6's to hold me over until I bought either the Philharmonitors or the BMR's. Things did not quite work out for me on that front. Hence, that is why I now have the Ultras.

But I have done my homework regarding the Chane A2.4 that will be coming out very soon. In fact, have even talked with Jon Lane about them. Likewise, I have spoken with several forum members that are familiar with the Chanes. Most speak very highly about them.

The A2.4 is a MTM design with significant improvements mainly in the crossover. Am also aware that prices are going up somewhat. That being said, I will order a set when the A2.4's are available and directly compare them to my Ultras. Furthermore, if I prefer the A2.4's then will order a 3rd one to complete my front-stage. If not, send them back for a refund minus shipping on the set. More than willing to pay shipping back if that was the case. Of course, if I prefer the Chanes then the Ultras will go up for sale right away.

Was going to order a set of the JBL 530's, but they are now delayed until August 5th. Hope to have my mind made up by then. Then again, anything can happen. So, the timing may work for me. Just will have to see when August gets here.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

A kit like this could be put together in an afternoon and finished an another, depending on how you wanted it finished. These are sealed centers that are extremely simple to put together. Just a thought since it would save money and get you a great center, if the Ultra center is too pricey.



Doesn't make sense to me. At best you're looking at a lateral move performance wise and a step down in finish. $737 shipped for 3 of them (assuming they hit the same price point) leaves you $137 more than what you're likely to get for the Ultras if you sell.



Wouldn't be a bad option, although for $121 more you could have a B-stock Ultra center that is voiced to go with the Ultras.

Alex I am not so sure going to the A2.4's would be a lateral move. Have spent a lot of time doing my homework on this one. Have spoken w/Jon Lane, the designer, several times already. Also, have chatted with several upstanding forum members here and over at AVS. The new A2.4 has some rather significant improvements mainly due to changes in the crossover. Price is going up some for sure.

I have always liked a MTM design. Loved my Ascend 340's when I had them years ago. Several forum members has assured me the A2 blew the 340's out of the water so to speak. The A2.4 by all accounts going to be stellar. Plan to order a set and directly compare them to my Ultras. The winner stays whereas the loser goes.

If I choose the Ultras, then I will order a B-stock Ultra center. If not, then will order a 3rd A2.4 and put the Ultras up for sale. Sooner or later though, I will own a set of the BMR's. It really is just a matter of time before I do. Even the Philharmonitors would be a rather significant upgrade.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[fuzz092888]

Alex I am not so sure going to the A2.4's would be a lateral move. Have spent a lot of time doing my homework on this one. Have spoken w/Jon Lane, the designer, several times already. Also, have chatted with several upstanding forum members here and over at AVS. The new A2.4 has some rather significant improvements mainly due to changes in the crossover. Price is going up some for sure.

In terms of objective things, and overall sound quality, it will be a lateral move in all likely-hood. That does not account for your personal preference in terms of sound signature ie more forward sounding, more laid back, etc. However, those would be subjective opinions about the sound of each.

Also, bear in mind that there's the psychoacoustics to take into account. Such as having had the speakers talked up to you and all the improvements that you've been made aware of and how that might affect how they sound to you when you compare them to the Ultras.

It took some time when comparing the Ultras vs the Mandolins when I first got the Ultras to really get a good handle on what I was hearing and what I really thought of the Ultras. Mostly because I really like the Mandolins and I built them so I'm especially attached to them.

From the sounds of it you've got the Chane speakers pretty built up, but I wouldn't sell the Ultras short when the Chane's arrive.

I have always liked a MTM design. Loved my Ascend 340's when I had them years ago. Several forum members has assured me the A2 blew the 340's out of the water so to speak. The A2.4 by all accounts going to be stellar. Plan to order a set and directly compare them to my Ultras. The winner stays whereas the loser goes.

Again, subjective stuff. You've got to manage expectations, both positive and negative like I mentioned above.

If I choose the Ultras, then I will order a B-stock Ultra center. If not, then will order a 3rd A2.4 and put the Ultras up for sale. Sooner or later though, I will own a set of the BMR's. It really is just a matter of time before I do. Even the Philharmonitors would be a rather significant upgrade.

Cheers,

Phil

If the BMR's were/are your goal, IMO it was a mistake to spend almost 40% of the cost of the BMR's on a stopgap. Especially a stopgap that you're replacing so soon. When all is said and done, you'll have shelled out nearly the price of the BMR's. Granted you'll get money back when you sell or return something, but this is a lot of time effort and money changing hands to hold you over when you could have spent the money once and been done. IMO when you were selling all of your stuff it would have made more sense to get a pair of the AA monitors as the hold over or to go with a single sub and put all the rest of the funds to the BMR's.

Granted, take this all with a grain of salt since I have my Pro's and Joe's thread to document just how many times I've changed gear. However, I'm not looking for anything in particular, just whatever strikes my fancy. If you're doing the same thing then great, if you really are after the BMR's it just seems like you have have had them a lot sooner.

 

[speakerman39]

In terms of objective things, and overall sound quality, it will be a lateral move in all likely-hood. That does not account for your personal preference in terms of sound signature ie more forward sounding, more laid back, etc. However, those would be subjective opinions about the sound of each.

Also, bear in mind that there's the psychoacoustics to take into account. Such as having had the speakers talked up to you and all the improvements that you've been made aware of and how that might affect how they sound to you when you compare them to the Ultras.

It took some time when comparing the Ultras vs the Mandolins when I first got the Ultras to really get a good handle on what I was hearing and what I really thought of the Ultras. Mostly because I really like the Mandolins and I built them so I'm especially attached to them.

From the sounds of it you've got the Chane speakers pretty built up, but I wouldn't sell the Ultras short when the Chane's arrive.



Again, subjective stuff. You've got to manage expectations, both positive and negative like I mentioned above.



If the BMR's were/are your goal, IMO it was a mistake to spend almost 40% of the cost of the BMR's on a stopgap. Especially a stopgap that you're replacing so soon. When all is said and done, you'll have shelled out nearly the price of the BMR's. Granted you'll get money back when you sell or return something, but this is a lot of time effort and money changing hands to hold you over when you could have spent the money once and been done. IMO when you were selling all of your stuff it would have made more sense to get a pair of the AA monitors as the hold over or to go with a single sub and put all the rest of the funds to the BMR's.

Granted, take this all with a grain of salt since I have my Pro's and Joe's thread to document just how many times I've changed gear. However, I'm not looking for anything in particular, just whatever strikes my fancy. If you're doing the same thing then great, if you really are after the BMR's it just seems like you have have had them a lot sooner.

You know Alex all points very well taken. It is NOT going to be easy to win me over my Ultras. It is going to take something that really wows me. The Ultras are very well balanced from top to bottom. To be honest, the Ultras sound great with music w/o a sub. I could certainly live with it no doubt.

When I owned the Paradigm Studio 20 v.3's they wowed me from the get go. I preferred them to the Studio 40 v.3's. However, a couple of things come to mind about the 20 v.3's. At times, the high end could become fatiguing and the low end was a tad bit over pronounced. The Ultras do not have that problem at all.

I remember you informing me that there were some significant changes to the Studio v.5's. Have not had the chance to hear them. But, would love to someday. When I got back into this hobby, my plan was just to get something for my small apartment. As you can see, I have gone all in. Along the way, have learned that music is much more important to me than HT.

Actually, was going to order a 3rd PSA S1500. But, had decided to give the JBL 530's a try instead. However, they are once again delayed until August 5th. Wanted to order a set tomorrow. In the mean time, have been considering the Chane A2.4. JBL pays shipping both ways so there is very little risk involved. The Chanes would cost me to send them back. That is why I plan to order only a set and go from there. Can always order a 3rd if I choose to keep them.

Maybe I just should put the Ultras up for sale. Once they sell, then order the Philharmonitors or the BMR's. The Philharmonitors are more in my price range. But, if I can sell the Ultras then I would be able to opt for the BMR's. Will just have to sort it all out in my mind. Right now, I want to try the A2.4's first and go from there.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KenM10759]

Everybody is different, I guess.

I'm going to undertake building a 2 channel music room and have zero chance of going through so many iterations of speakers in & out to get to the end game. Instead, I'll go listen to as many as I can, and test no more than three in the finished room before deciding. Nothing I buy would ever again be bought with "future upgrades" in mind. Of course hitting the lottery big means all bets are off.

Phil, you seem to be going through a lot of short motions (losing time and money with each one) to achieve your desired goal, which I something in itself I still can see clearly with so many moves. Whatever floats your boat though, it's your time and money.

 

[speakerman39]

Everybody is different, I guess.

I'm going to undertake building a 2 channel music room and have zero chance of going through so many iterations of speakers in & out to get to the end game. Instead, I'll go listen to as many as I can, and test no more than three in the finished room before deciding. Nothing I buy would ever again be bought with "future upgrades" in mind. Of course hitting the lottery big means all bets are off.

Phil, you seem to be going through a lot of short motions (losing time and money with each one) to achieve your desired goal, which I something in itself I still can see clearly with so many moves. Whatever floats your boat though, it's your time and money.

Now you know why I go by the name speakerman39.......LOL!!!! No really, the Chanes A2.4 may just do it for me leaving no need for anything else. If not, then I will go from there. One of these days, hope to at least hear the JBL 530's. Have lost some money, but not as much as you think. Risks are a part of this great hobby. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. Just hope that at the end of the day, I win more than I lose.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

If the MLP is much off-center the need for a center speaker becomes paramount for movies & TV. How much off center is acceptable depends upon the soundstage presented by the L-R speakers.

I think this bears repeating.
I have been very happy using a phantom center (as in no center, but "phantom" sounds cool!) where the tv was close to centered between speakers.
Since TV/Movies are not that big of a deal for you, put your money into your primary stereo speakers, not a center!
Honestly, if I look at my own use, it is about 95%/5% music to HT. About 10% of the 5% that is HT, or 0.5% of my total use is content where I would care to have a good HT beyond good audio.
I know some here will consider me a Philistine, but IOW, for almost any TV content, I would be happy to have quality audio from a single speaker (news, sitcom, etc.), having good stereo speakers is just icing on the cake. It is only certain movies and the rare TV show that I appreciate having a HT setup. A movie like "When Harry met Sally" don't care about fancy audio. Something like "Avatar" is where I do want it!
But then, when going from simple Stereo to HT, this is my order of preference for the features of a HT:
1) Deep Base - subwoofers (75%)
2) Surround sound - satellite (20%)
3) Center channel - center (5%, if that)

What I am saying is that, given your use, a center should be way down on your list! Being an engineer geek and using my own preferences which seem not too far from yours, I would put it at 5% of 5% of 10% or 0.1%.

If my assumptions are reasonable, I have a hard time seeing you spend over 20% of you speaker budget on a center!

You've already got nice subs, so I would get a couple of NHT SuperZeros for surround (or whatever floats your boat - as long as they have good mids and highs - the NHT's are small and light for easy wall mounting and will put out plenty of sound for your setup) and go for your final music/stereo speakers before investing in a center. Typically, a center costs more than a single Left or Right speaker (using bookshelf speakers).
By your own reckoning, you plan to replace your L&R with a Philharmonic product that is on par or better than a Sierra 2 w/Raal (I mention this because most readers would consider the Sierra Raal an "end-game speaker", and far fewer people are familiar with Dennis's offerings).

PS - FYI, Dennis has recommended the NHT's as a center (or surrounds) having a similar timbre to his own upscale offerings. Obviously they won't be at the same level, but if someone is looking to keep costs down for the HT part and/or needs a smaller profile to fit under the TV, an NHT is a good solution.

 

[speakerman39]

I think this bears repeating.
I have been very happy using a phantom center (as in no center, but "phantom" sounds cool!) where the tv was close to centered between speakers.
Since TV/Movies are not that big of a deal for you, put your money into your primary stereo speakers, not a center!
Honestly, if I look at my own use, it is about 95%/5% music to HT. About 10% of the 5% that is HT, or 0.5% of my total use is content where I would care to have a good HT beyond good audio.
I know some here will consider me a Philistine, but IOW, for almost any TV content, I would be happy to have quality audio from a single speaker (news, sitcom, etc.), having good stereo speakers is just icing on the cake. It is only certain movies and the rare TV show that I appreciate having a HT setup. A movie like "When Harry met Sally" don't care about fancy audio. Something like "Avatar" is where I do want it!
But then, when going from simple Stereo to HT, this is my order of preference for the features of a HT:
1) Deep Base - subwoofers (75%)
2) Surround sound - satellite (20%)
3) Center channel - center (5%, if that)

What I am saying is that, given your use, a center should be way down on your list! Being an engineer geek and using my own preferences which seem not too far from yours, I would put it at 5% of 5% of 10% or 0.1%.

If my assumptions are reasonable, I have a hard time seeing you spend over 20% of you speaker budget on a center!

You've already got nice subs, so I would get a couple of NHT SuperZeros for surround (or whatever floats your boat - as long as they have good mids and highs - the NHT's are small and light for easy wall mounting and will put out plenty of sound for your setup) and go for your final music/stereo speakers before investing in a center. Typically, a center costs more than a single Left or Right speaker (using bookshelf speakers).
By your own reckoning, you plan to replace your L&R with a Philharmonic product that is on par or better than a Sierra 2 w/Raal (I mention this because most readers would consider the Sierra Raal an "end-game speaker", and far fewer people are familiar with Dennis's offerings).

PS - FYI, Dennis has recommended the NHT's as a center (or surrounds) having a similar timbre to his own upscale offerings. Obviously they won't be at the same level, but if someone is looking to keep costs down for the HT part and/or needs a smaller profile to fit under the TV, an NHT is a good solution.

Thanks for the insights Kurt. All points well taken. Will be sure to check out the NHT's. Have read many good things about the very speakers that you have mentioned.

Been saying all along that sooner or later I will own a set of either the Philharmonitors OR the BMR's. Not too long ago, the BMR's were really not that much more than the BMR's. That has changed a bit now. So, initially I was hoping the Polks would hold me over while I get a few things lined out pertaining to my finances. However, as you know by now that is NOT the case.

In the mean time, I have managed to obtain the Ultras. As such, if I can sell them then the BMR's are doable. Otherwise, will have to opt for the Philharmonitors. Either way, it will be a significant upgrade for me. This has all been a part of my plan all along.

Came across the JBL 530's. For some reason or another, they have me very curious. In fact, was considering ordering a set today but they are delayed until August 5th. Wanted to directly compare the 530's to my Ultras. Absolutely no risk involved because JBL pays shipping both ways. Perhaps come August, I will order a set then to give them a try who knows.

Got my HiVi stands in and have the Ultras on them now as we speak. Have also come across the Chane speakers. The new A2.4 is going to be a significant upgrade as compared to its predecessor due to changes in the crossover. Prices are going up some, but the A2.4 will still be very affordable. As such, will order a set and compare them directly to my Ultras and go from there. In the end, may just have to eat the shipping back. But, that is part of the risks that I am willing to take. Sure would NOT be the first time that have had to do so.

Still on the fence about ordering a 3rd S1500. It is so tempting. Think that I will hold off for a while before I do. Now that my Ultras will be further apart, just figured that adding a center would be helpful. Not too concerned with any surrounds at this point. Tomorrow, will get things moved around yet again and give my set-up a listen. Thus, will have a better idea if I really need a center or not. Thanks for your insights Kurt. As always, they are much appreciated.

Cheers,

Phil