Considering coaxial / concentric speakers

[sunPin]

I have done a lot of reading about coaxials over at AVS and am leaving heavily in that direction for my next speaker upgrade (Reaction Audio's CX line).

I always crosscheck AVS with Audioholics before making a purchase decision, but I've not been able to find any substantive conversation on Audioholics forums about coaxials.

Is anyone running coaxials or had the chance to compare coaxials with more standard driver topologies? What are your opinions on them?

My primary objectives for the upgrade are expanded soundstage, improved dynamic range, and improved imaging.

Thanks

 

[shadyJ]

Well-designed speakers will tend to sound similar whatever their design. Coaxials have their advantages though. The dispersion pattern should be pretty uniform. Also, since the drivers are co-incidental, they should not have any issues with phase or interference. This should make them as good for near-field listening as far-field. The Reaction Audio line looks good to me, the Radian drivers they are using look to be good ones.

 

[charmerci]

Are movies really important for you or is it just for music?

If music is the most important, then I'd look into these -

http://omegaloudspeakers.com/home.html

 

[sunPin]

Are movies really important for you or is it just for music?

If music is the most important, then I'd look into these -

http://omegaloudspeakers.com/home.html

Movies are the most important to me. Thanks!

 

[shadyJ]

Are movies really important for you or is it just for music?

If music is the most important, then I'd look into these -

http://omegaloudspeakers.com/home.html

whizzer cones... ew.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is anyone running coaxials or had the chance to compare coaxials with more standard driver topologies? What are your opinions on them?

Oh, yeah. I've owned KEF 201/2, Salon2, B&W 802 D2, Linkwitz Orion, Philharmonic 3, RBH SX-T2/R and few others (ATC, Dynaudio, Focal, TAD, NHT, DefTech).

Good speakers sound good regardless of driver topology and material.

 

[sunPin]

Oh, yeah. I've owned KEF 201/2, Salon2, B&W 802 D2, Linkwitz Orion, Philharmonic 3, RBH SX-T2/R and few others (ATC, Dynaudio, Focal, TAD, NHT, DefTech).

Good speakers sound good regardless of driver topology and material.

For sure good speakers sound good regardless of design, but different designs will sound different.

Do you coaxials are particularly good for imaging and sound stage?

 

[Steve81]

Do you coaxials are particularly good for imaging and sound stage?

I wouldn't consider my KEFs (which utilize UniQ concentric drivers) to be "superior" in either respect to a well designed "conventional" speaker like the Philharmonic 3's.

Edit: As I've also mentioned before, I don't think my custom built speakers (which also utilize a UniQ driver) sounded significantly different from the older model of the Philharmonitor either.

 

[j_garcia]

The advantage of coaxial drivers isn't something that I'd say would be a deciding factor for me, meaning to use it as a starting point for choosing speakers really makes no sense. Worry less about the features and more about how the speaker as a whole sounds or you may miss out on something great for no good reason.

I am very interested in hearing the Uni-fi Elac speakers by Andrew Jones. I liked the KEF UniQ equipped speakers (also AJ), but agree, they didn't sound better or worse than any other well designed speaker.

 

[Steve81]

The dispersion pattern should be pretty uniform.

That's the big one for Reaction's application. Normally you wouldn't want to try and cross a tweeter over to a 10" woofer. Above say 1kHz, said woofer will start to beam noticeably, i.e. its dispersion will narrow. In addition, cone breakup won't be too far behind, requiring additional work to solve. Now that's far too low to cross over a conventional tweeter, and the end result is that the off-axis FR will exhibit a large dip, along with any nastiness associated with inadequately controlled driver breakup. You can see an example of such a dip with the measurements of the Harbeth Model 30 Domestic, which utilizes an 8" woofer and 1" soft dome tweeter:

The Reaction CX-10 attacks this from both sides:
1. They utilize a relatively large 1.75" compression driver that can go a bit lower than a run of the mill 1" tweeter.
2. The concentric arrangement serves as a waveguide to the tweeter, narrowing its dispersion pattern.
The end result should be a relatively smooth off axis response that declines as the frequency goes up.

 

[DD66000]

It's been a few years since I used a coax speaker ('99~'02).
I had three JBL L55's across the front. The center had LE15C coax driver.
The 15" cone acted as a wave guide for the tweeter.
The result was very good dialogue.
But the overall performance of the center was no better than the L/R L55's with LE20-1 tweeter and LE15A bass driver.

 

[sunPin]

The advantage of coaxial drivers isn't something that I'd say would be a deciding factor for me, meaning to use it as a starting point for choosing speakers really makes no sense. Worry less about the features and more about how the speaker as a whole sounds or you may miss out on something great for no good reason.

I am very interested in hearing the Uni-fi Elac speakers by Andrew Jones. I liked the KEF UniQ equipped speakers (also AJ), but agree, they didn't sound better or worse than any other well designed speaker.

I didn't start with coaxial as my first criterion actually. I wanted dynamic range, big stage and sharp imaging and was recommended by some AVS folks to check out Reaction Audio's line and then got interested in knowing more about the coaxial design.

It's a little strange to hear you suggest that different driver topologies don't matter, because the reason we have different topologies is because they engineers needed to make different compromises to make certain gains in other areas.

For example, you'll never find an MT speaker at IMAX because it's just too expensive (impossible?) to get the throw, efficiency, and dynamic range you need for that application in a room of that size with an MT. Therefore, the type of speaker matters for the application.

So starting with the tech that is designed for the application that you want (dynamic range, sound stage and imaging for me), makes absolute sense.

Starting with "whichever speaker sounds good" would be similar to saying "whichever driver sounds good" and auditioning 1" tweeters to see which one will hit 20hz. I guess it's possible for a 1" tweeter to do that, but it makes no sense to audition them all to find out if a tweeter can do that if you know a 12" woofer is designed for that application.

I fact, it makes little sense to start with "whichever speaker sounds good" because then you'd have to audition all speakers. I definitely don't have that kind of time or budget.

 

[j_garcia]

You don't have to audition all speakers. You DO have to audition, period. The more you have heard the better of a decision you can make.

You didn't ask about building an IMAX theater and that does not apply to a music system for a home. IMAX typically uses arrays akin to a concert setup, with separates and for a obvious reasons. Car speakers are coaxial as well, for a different reason, because space is at a premium in a vehicle design. That doesn't mean it is the best option, just the most equitable.

The type of design is not going to immediately mean a speaker has a specific advantage over another - that comes from the design as every speaker is a trade-off. Great sounding speakers start with a great speaker designer, regardless of what driver types are used. The IMPLEMENTATION is what matters. You could give the same drivers to different designers and the result would be very different size, shape and x-over design which would result in different sounding speakers. At the end of the day it is the type of sound we each prefer that determines what speakers are right for us.

My recommendation: http://philharmonicaudio.com/

 

[shadyJ]

The Reaction speakers will certainly have dynamic range in spades thinks to the heavy-duty drivers and large cabinet. By 'good' around here we mostly mean accuracy, and I don't see anything wrong with the Reaction speaker in that approach, providing they are using a good crossover point. If you can tolerate the lead time, I think they will be a terrific speaker. Another speaker which looks to have good dynamics and accuracy is the Klipsch Palladium P-17b, which is being discounted right not for $975 each, that is a 75% markdown. It probably isn't as powerful as the Reaction speakers, but it sure looks nice, and its measured dispersion and frequency response is quite good.

 

[sunPin]

You don't have to audition all speakers. You DO have to audition, period. The more you have heard the better of a decision you can make.

You didn't ask about building an IMAX theater and that does not apply to a music system for a home. IMAX typically uses arrays akin to a concert setup, with separates and for a obvious reasons. Car speakers are coaxial as well, for a different reason, because space is at a premium in a vehicle design. That doesn't mean it is the best option, just the most equitable.

The type of design is not going to immediately mean a speaker has a specific advantage over another - that comes from the design as every speaker is a trade-off. Great sounding speakers start with a great speaker designer, regardless of what driver types are used. The IMPLEMENTATION is what matters. You could give the same drivers to different designers and the result would be very different size, shape and x-over design which would result in different sounding speakers.

My recommendation: http://philharmonicaudio.com/

It doesn't have to be IMAX for the tech to matter.

There is no question that auditioning is important. I've auditioned several different topologies, including coaxials in a pro audio setting, and they sound really different to me; electro stats sounded really different from D'Apolito for example.

But I haven't found anywhere to audition coaxials in a home theater setting. So opinions from those who own them or have compared them are important to me before I drop money and time on a new system.

No question the implementation matters, but again, how do you narrow down your choices if there are thousands of options? Starting with the tech designed for your application is an effective way to do it. It may not ultimately satisfy you, but that's a much better approach than starting randomly.

Certainly, if you know you need to haul concrete, you would not test drive sports cars to see if they would work, even though it's possible that they might.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[sunPin]

The Reaction speakers will certainly have dynamic range in spades thinks to the heavy-duty drivers and large cabinet. By 'good' around here we mostly mean accuracy, and I don't see anything wrong with the Reaction speaker in that approach, providing they are using a good crossover point. If you can tolerate the lead time, I think they will be a terrific speaker. Another speaker which looks to have good dynamics and accuracy is the Klipsch Palladium P-17b, which is being discounted right not for $975 each, that is a 75% markdown. It probably isn't as powerful as the Reaction speakers, but it sure looks nice, and its measured dispersion and frequency response is quite good.

Thanks for the thoughts and recommendation, shadyj. Those Palladiums look nice, will look into them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1. For sure good speakers sound good regardless of design, but different designs will sound different.

2. Do you (think) coaxials are particularly good for imaging and sound stage?

1. I agree.

2. Not any better or worse than any other good designs I've heard.

As of today, the best design I've heard is the Average Dispersion Array. Too bad RBH has discontinued that design.

Some prefer ribbons. Others prefer coaxial. Others prefer dipole/bipolar, etc.

We all have different preferences based on the kind of speakers we are able to audition. Surely no one has listened to every single speaker available. Once we listen to new speakers, we may or may not change our minds.

 

[j_garcia]

It doesn't have to be IMAX for the tech to matter.

There is no question that auditioning is important. I've auditioned several different topologies, including coaxials in a pro audio setting, and they sound really different to me; electro stats sounded really different from D'Apolito for example.

But I haven't found anywhere to audition coaxials in a home theater setting. So opinions from those who own them or have compared them are important to me before I drop money and time on a new system.

No question the implementation matters, but again, how do you narrow down your choices if there are thousands of options? Starting with the tech designed for your application is an effective way to do it. It may not ultimately satisfy you, but that's a much better approach than starting randomly.

Certainly, if you know you need to haul concrete, you would not test drive sports cars to see if they would work, even though it's possible that they might.

Wouldn't you agree?

Like ANY kind of testing you WOULD have to start randomly. If one has zero experience, this is a much harder process, but if one has some experience auditioning, then narrowing the field becomes much easier.

Of course you start with the right tool, but your example about concrete is again not applicable. If I wanted a sports car, I would start with sports cars. If I wanted to haul concrete I would start with trucks. If I wanted a music system, I would ask about speakers that people know to be good with music...regardless of their design. You can approach it however you like and we don't have to agree, but you seem to be making it more complex than it is.

 

[lsiberian]

I have a couple coaxials for surrounds and they are excellent little speakers for the duty. I have used them as fronts in a pinch.

We have a member here who uses a custom coaxial for his center and it does an excellent job. KEF specialized in coaxials so I'd start there if you want to go that route. There was a time I loved the KEF speakers, but I've grown to have other preferences these days.

FWIW I've heard some of the best speakers and a horn, TL, bass reflex, traditional sealed and bipolar speaker all have a very different sound. So I do believe in personal preferences in speaker selection.

 

[charmerci]

You can read tons of reactions (ha!) here -

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1661937-official-reaction-audio-thread-105.html

I bought a subwoofer when Jeremy first started. The packing wasn't great (since changed) and there was some internal damage on what I thought was one of the speakers but he sent me two at no charge - and it was only after I replaced the second driver did I find out he was right.