Brussels

[Chu Gai]

No one else is responsible; that's the point. An accountant in my office who happens to be Muslim isn't responsible for 9/11, Paris, Brussels, et al. There's no sense in vilifying him for the acts of some psychopaths who happen to nominally share the same religion.

This accountant who's Muslim, can you expound a bit more about him/her? By that I mean things like were they a recent emigre, speak Arabic, pray 5x, etc.?

 

[haraldo]

I'm just still trying to get hold of myself after the senseless horror and watching small kids horrified to death from the horror of the subway bombing...

Living in Norway, we're very much closer to this and it actually already directly affected our choices of what we do. We cancelled a X-mas celebration in London as it felt horribly wrong going there after what happened in Paris...

No matter how you look upon this, it's an Islam inflected horror as it's the radical muslims doing these senseless things. This isn't even up for discussion as it's a hard fact.

I reckon that we really need to step up the level if intelligence, security, awareness... everything. The police security service over here made an outrage when they called for rights to monitor EVERYTHING going via Internet, all your emails and...everything... so it's not going to happen, well maybe it's what we need. We probably need to sacrifice some things in order to have enough intelligence to stop these terrorists...

 

[Steve81]

This accountant who's Muslim, can you expound a bit more about him/her? By that I mean things like were they a recent emigre, speak Arabic, pray 5x, etc.?

He emigrated from Afghanistan, but not recently. He does use his break time for prayers, and he's presumably fluent in at least a couple foreign tongues. Beyond that, he's just another guy in the office who does his job goes home to his wife and kids at the end of the day.

 

[Chu Gai]

As you say, it's the radical elements doing this but it bears keeping in mind there is a significant number of people who aren't radicalized to that point but keep quiet about what's going on and don't subscribe to the see something/say something mantra.

 

[Steve81]

As you say, it's the radical elements doing this but it bears keeping in mind there is a significant number of people who aren't radicalized to that point but keep quiet about what's going on and don't subscribe to the see something/say something mantra.

Indeed; the trillion dollar question is how do we break the cycles of violence and mistrust. Obviously ISIS and other jihadist networks have to be destroyed, but if we alienate 1.6 billion other people and make millions of Americans feel like outcasts in the process, what are we actually accomplishing?

 

[haraldo]

Indeed; the trillion dollar question is how do we break the cycles of violence and mistrust. Obviously ISIS and other jihadist networks have to be destroyed, but if we alienate 1.6 billion other people and make millions of Americans feel like outcasts in the process, what are we actually accomplishing?

We need to understand why, we can't fix a problem by wiping out some group of people... We really need to fix the root cause and for this we need to understand, WHY

 

[markw]

I would doubt he (or 99+% of American Muslims) considers ISIS "his people", any more than I consider Hitler "my people" as a result of having some German blood. Therein lies the problem with that line of thinking: you gain nothing from it except alienating more people.

We can all see how well simply accepting them at face value is working out in Europe and, in a smaller measure (for now) here in the good old USA.

If you had a dish full of M&M's and 25 were poison, how quickly would you dip your hand in and grab a handful?

 

[shadyJ]

Not entirely. I won't impugn upon the dignity of 1.6 billion Muslims, but it isn't too far off from what ISIS is preaching

ISIS is not all of Islam. ISIS's main enemy is other Muslims; Shia Muslims, regarded as heretics. Western targets are a periphery goal for them whose only aim is to radicalize Muslims the world over from blind western retribution.

There's no sense in vilifying him for the acts of some psychopaths who happen to nominally share the same religion.

Nominally needs to be stressed. Islam is a diverse religion. These attacks are mainly carried out by Sunni extremists. Blindly lashing out at all of Islam like Trump or Cruz are advocating plays right into ISIS's hands. As far as I am concerned, Republicans are the unwitting allies of ISIS.

 

[Rickster71]

What a bunch of paranoid right-wing crap that pic is. Right out of Donald Trump's headquarters. The majority of the USA's Muslim citizens are pretty well assimilated. I can't speak for Europe, but that is an idiotic generalization. The American Muslim men I have known were interested in cars, dumb movies, sports, and video games. The American Muslim woman I have known were interested in glamour, families, and gossip. Just like most of the other American men and women I have known. "The path of Islam", give me a break. Islam is a diverse religion with a complex history. Whoever created that picture did so in either malice, total ignorance, or both.

The problem with Dog Chasing Tail arguments. It's a distraction.... a distraction from ever really doing anything about terrorism..... except to react after the fact and clean up.

The script goes like this:
A terrorist act is committed.
Someone gets their wrist slapped for using broad brush statements, lumping all Muslims together.
Media news coverage of issues is bias in favor the status quo. So very little discussion is allowed and must be within a PC boundary.

Next up, the candlelight vigils and everyone singing Kumbaya. The lights on significant buildings and monuments around the world will be changed to the color of the Victim Country's flag.

Last, but not least, the sheep slowly forget..... until the next time.

No one will scratch their head and realize, whatever we've been doing.... and spending, it doesn't stop terrorism. Taxpayers and citizens are simply collateral damage.

 

[adk highlander]

The problem with Dog Chasing Tail arguments. It's a distraction.... a distraction from ever really doing anything about terrorism..... except to react after the fact and clean up.

The script goes like this:
A terrorist act is committed.
Someone gets their wrist slapped for using broad brush statements, lumping all Muslims together.
Media news coverage of issues is bias in favor the status quo. So very little discussion is allowed and must be within a PC boundary.

Next up, the candlelight vigils and everyone singing Kumbaya. The lights on significant buildings and monuments around the world will be changed to the color of the Victim Country's flag.

Last, but not least, the sheep slowly forget..... until the next time.

No one will scratch their head and realize, whatever we've been doing.... and spending, it doesn't stop terrorism. Taxpayers and citizens are simply collateral damage.

Sounds very similar to our current gun culture in the US and reactions after a mass shooting?

 

[Steve81]

We can all see how well simply accepting them at face value is working out in Europe and, in a smaller measure (for now) here in the good old USA.

If you had a dish full of M&M's and 25 were poison, how quickly would you dip your hand in and grab a handful?

Nobody is saying that our intelligence agencies should just sit on their collective thumbs. The key is to efficiently identify the bad without ostracizing the good.

We really need to fix the root cause and for this we need to understand, WHY

The why of the matter presumably varies. I'd consider base factors like economics and perceived injustice to be high on the list though. Would Gaza be a major source of unrest if it were a bustling metropolis instead of a 3rd world craphole? Probably not. Would a person be as open to ISIS propaganda if they weren't treated as a potential threat by their neighbors and told to go back to their own country while driving to work? Again, probably not.

There will always be some bad apples for whom living comfortably in peace just isn't enough, but I suspect if those two aspects were meaningfully addressed, there would be a lot fewer extremists floating around.

 

[Chu Gai]

Indeed; the trillion dollar question is how do we break the cycles of violence and mistrust. Obviously ISIS and other jihadist networks have to be destroyed, but if we alienate 1.6 billion other people and make millions of Americans feel like outcasts in the process, what are we actually accomplishing?

If it's really 1.6B, man we've got a problem. Generalizing but not terribly so, Muslims seem to have a problem with self control and they just seem to be frustrated by lots of things.

 

[markw]

Nobody is saying that our intelligence agencies should just sit on their collective thumbs. The key is to efficiently identify the bad without ostracizing the good.

AFAICT, the only way that will ever happen is when the good helps us by turning over the bad. That mosques are a known cover for the bad and as a source of radicalization doesn't make it seem too likely.

http://nypost.com/2015/07/26/the-us-mosque-link-between-islamic-attacks-that-authorities-are-ignoring/

Again, the ball is in their court.

 

[Steve81]

Again, the ball is in their court.

The ball is in everyone's court. None of this is happening in a vacuum.

 

[Steve81]

If it's really 1.6B, man we've got a problem.

That's what the google tells me at least, though it seems plausible since Islam isn't confined to the Middle East.

Generalizing but not terribly so, Muslims seem to have a problem with self control and they just seem to be frustrated by lots of things.

Some of them have quite a lot to be frustrated about. Would you want to live in Gaza?

 

[markw]

The ball is in everyone's court. None of this is happening in a vacuum.

Not really. They need to stop those wascaly terrorist acts before anyone's opinion will change.

In this country, at least, they have opportunities they could not dream of in their home countries and yet they pull their crap. We've taken in Somalian refugees from their war torn country nad yet they volunteer to go fight for ISIS. Go figguh.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/24/islamist-terror-groups-target-minnesota-somali-ref/?page=all

The Boston Bombers family received $100,000 in state aid.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/30/boston-bombing-suspects-family-reportedly-received-100g-from-taxpayers.html

...and they SILL blame America for what their sons did!

http://toprightnews.com/boston-bomber-tsarnaevs-mother-says-america-is-the-real-terrorist-lauds-son/

The Ft. Hood shooter was a doctor and a major in the army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Hasan

What more opportunity does one need?

We can't do it all for them We took them from a hell hole into a land of opportunities. They have to take it upon themselves to better themselves to make them more marketable here.

 

[Steve81]

Not really. They need to stop those wascaly terrorist acts before anyone's opinion will change.

Many are working to do so, both in words and bullets. However, any lasting solution needs to be holistic in nature. It's not enough to defeat ISIS and their ilk on the battlefield. You have to win the battle of the hearts and minds, and you'll never do that with an "us vs. them" mentality where you view every Muslim as a potential terrorist.

 

[Steve81]

Western targets are a periphery goal for them whose only aim is to radicalize Muslims the world over from blind western retribution.

It's a brilliant strategy when you get down to it. Commit a terrorist act; blowback against Muslims creates more disaffected individuals that become ripe for radicalization. Rinse. Repeat.

 

[markw]

Many are working to do so, both in words and bullets. However, any lasting solution needs to be holistic in nature. It's not enough to defeat ISIS and their ilk on the battlefield. You have to win the battle of the hearts and minds, and you'll never do that with an "us vs. them" mentality where you view every Muslim as a potential terrorist.

Well, welcoming into our countries didn't seem to work any better. what suggestions so you have?

And, I don't view every muslim as a potential terrorist. Only those I don't know.

 

[Steve81]

what suggestions so you have?

What basically amounts to a long term PR campaign to improve international and intranational relations, with an eye towards encouraging economic development, as well as working harder to defuse powder kegs like the Israeli / Palestinian conflict in an equitable manner.


And on that note, it's time for this thread to die...