How do you read AV grades?

[killdozzer]

If you could find a pair of KEF LS50 for the Croatian equivalent of $1100 to $1200 I would buy them and spend the next couple of years chasing a DAC/amp combination that could really get the most out of them. Those are speakers known for revealing the weakness in the equipment leading up to them.

Are you trying to say you don't like me much? That doesn't seem the nicest thing you can wish for someone.

I was thinking about KEF LS50 and you can get them for 1200$. But if I decide to go for a more expensive box I think I'll go for the ATC SCM 7 and not KEF. They are slightly less expensive but play a lot better according to almost everyone.

Still trying to find a less expensive option. I even mentioned the LS50 in this thread. Everyone thinks it's a fine box, but I always get a warning about the 'cost of the name'. However, no one dares to say which speaker would they rate as almost equal but less expensive on account of ti not being a big brand. If someone would say: this speaker, although different in construction, naturally, because a lot in LS50 is TM KEF, would sound almost as good as, but it is not a famous brand so you get them for 800$ - for example, this would be a golden advice.

This way it is hard to say how much exactly you pay for the brand.

I'm in wine business, among my other lives, and I can say this with no problem at all; if you like first class Chateauneuf du Pape, but don't have the money, drink Gigondas - you'll get the enjoyment for less bang. If you like Saint Emilion, a right bank Bordeaux, but can't afford it, drink a top rated Blaye. It is the same recipe, you'll get the wine you like, but it will cost less.

killdozzer

 

[killdozzer]

I didn't know that you were set on any system in particular. I'm interested to see what you choose for a DAC/amp. My degree of technical advancement is lame but I think I get around all that with an external sound card and a receiver ... plus some amps ... that I don't need.

No, I appreciate your time and effort to help me, but I still have to understand what are you saying. Now I need to find a sound card, but not just any, a good sound card. I hear these are mostly cheap, but I have to buy one none the less. I guess then that you're thinking of plugging a turntable directly into the active monitor? But is this possible without MM/MC phono stage?

Perhaps you thought by the time I get to the turntable I'll change the initial set up? Which brings me to another problem with active monitors; whenever I decide to change speakers for any reason, I either need to go for another pair of actives, or I need to buy the amp that I initially skipped.

When I said I have my mind set on a system, I didn't necessarily mean the specific brand, I meant configuration. I would have one 'endlessly pluggable' (if I can invent a term as I go) center of the system with a role to turn most sources into a decent sound. And this would be a DAC/amp combo. This is a sort of 'heart of the system'. And then the sole would be a pair of really good speakers. Topped of with an active sub (or is it bottomed off in that case).

If I get there, the sources will no longer be a problem; iPhone, laptop, turntable, CD player etc. You just plug your source into the amp and anything, or almost anything, goes.

I already named some of the companies I can find in Cro that are entry level. For example, Cambridge Audio you can get new for 400$ and it should sound good for start. Second hand you could probably find it for 250$.

 

[KenM10759]

Are you trying to say you don't like me much? That doesn't seem the nicest thing you can wish for someone.

I was thinking about KEF LS50 and you can get them for 1200$. But if I decide to go for a more expensive box I think I'll go for the ATC SCM 7 and not KEF. They are slightly less expensive but play a lot better according to almost everyone.

Still trying to find a less expensive option. I even mentioned the LS50 in this thread. Everyone thinks it's a fine box, but I always get a warning about the 'cost of the name'. However, no one dares to say which speaker would they rate as almost equal but less expensive on account of ti not being a big brand. If someone would say: this speaker, although different in construction, naturally, because a lot in LS50 is TM KEF, would sound almost as good as, but it is not a famous brand so you get them for 800$ - for example, this would be a golden advice.

This way it is hard to say how much exactly you pay for the brand.

I'm in wine business, among my other lives, and I can say this with no problem at all; if you like first class Chateauneuf du Pape, but don't have the money, drink Gigondas - you'll get the enjoyment for less bang. If you like Saint Emilion, a right bank Bordeaux, but can't afford it, drink a top rated Blaye. It is the same recipe, you'll get the wine you like, but it will cost less.

killdozzer

I think you may be mistaken about the ATC SCM7 vs. KEF LS50. I've done some reading and have heard the LS50. The SCM7 is harder to drive (needs more power) and doesn't look as smooth in measurements as the LS50 does. I would also conclude that the LS50 goes deeper and the shape of the front baffle is very effective in affording broader off-axis performance. From a great many reports and my ears, the LS50 competes with speakers in much higher price ranges...and enclosure sizes. It is unreal what can come out of those small cubes. I don't see any comments like that related to the ATC speaker.

I appreciate your analogy to wines, and you are generally right. This is one case where the big brand name actually did an amazing job of delivering value.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker-measurements#XjdWroaSTqgTdX7D.97
http://www.stereophile.com/content/atv-scm7-v3-loudspeaker-measurements#v2vtMEi0ftgLUUPp.97

 

[Alex2507]

Sound cards are no problem. I got a rebuilt one for 20 bucks at least 5 years ago. I think the new rec'rs out there might have USB connectivity. Not sure though. I think both my rec'rs have phono inputs but a phono pre-amp can be had for under a hundred dollars. Swerd has that info if needed.

Whenever you say DAC/amp combo I envision a H/T rec'r. It's the most cost effective way around that hurdle. But 'the way' to do this is to pick the speakers. As it turns out I have not heard any KEF or Cambridge Audio speakers. Both have good enough reputations and as you saw with Focal, a range of price points. Maybe you meant that Cambridge Audio had DAC/amps? Anyway, after choosing the speakers you pick suitable amplification based on room size, listening levels, speaker sensitivity and finally: impedance.

If you get monitors then your rec'r would need pre-outs. I think monitors are out for you. The pretty Focal monitors are expensive. Where does the volume control live on your proposed DAC/amp combo? Can you link the type of stuff you are considering?

Are you able to get Denon rec'rs? I have wanted to get one for a long time but I'm using a couple of Yamaha rec'rs for 2 systems at home. Each rec'r is capable of driving my speakers but I still use external amps because I have them. Any perceived benefit is hard to really identify. If I wanted the next level in audio I would look to better speakers, not better electronics.

Once you pick the speakers, we can find the rest of the pieces.

 

[killdozzer]

I think the new rec'rs out there might have USB connectivity.

Sorry, I don't know what rec'rs are

Maybe you meant that Cambridge Audio had DAC/amps?

Yep, this was it. I meant that if I decide to spend 80% of the budget on speakers, I might simply go for a second hand Cambridge Audio (Azur 351A) so that I can start listening to my music and buy some time until I go for better electronics.

Anyway, after choosing the speakers you pick suitable amplification based on room size, listening levels, speaker sensitivity and finally: impedance.

So you would start with speakers? This is a valuable advice as well.

Where does the volume control live on your proposed DAC/amp combo? Can you link the type of stuff you are considering

I've start learning about the importance of volume control. Didn't know much about it before. Well, if I do speakers first, and a cheap DAC/amp just to get me trough the night, then volume control is what comes in the package. When I reach the point of a better amp, I'll look out for the volume control. So if I post links it will be of speakers first. Preferred DAC/amp gets pushed on down the road. Not much point in me posting links on NAD D3020, and Azur 351A if they're not here to stay. And as I said, this will be the case if I go for better speakers.

Are you able to get Denon rec'rs? I have wanted to get one for a long time but I'm using a couple of Yamaha rec'rs for 2 systems at home. Each rec'r is capable of driving my speakers but I still use external amps because I have them. Any perceived benefit is hard to really identify. If I wanted the next level in audio I would look to better speakers, not better electronics

Yes, better speakers, but as soon as you get those, amp immediately comes to question - can it drive the speakers, is it suitable and so on... Of course, speakers must be good, but the amp must be at least medium good. I know you don't need 10 000$ amp, but I don't know whether a Rotel RA-11 could make excellent speakers sound their best. Denon's and Yamaha's and Marantz's are available to me and very cheap (considering), they are the last choice, however. I have to, at least, try to find something as good, but that doesn't remind me of some mall's hardware shelf. (I don't insist on this, if it's not possible, then it's not possible, but first I have to try, I would rather get the Rotel if it's nearly as good as).

Once you pick the speakers, we can find the rest of the pieces.

I now officially hold this to be the sentence of the day. We'll do that.

 

[killdozzer]

I think you may be mistaken about the ATC SCM7 vs. KEF LS50. I've done some reading and have heard the LS50. The SCM7 is harder to drive (needs more power) and doesn't look as smooth in measurements as the LS50 does. I would also conclude that the LS50 goes deeper and the shape of the front baffle is very effective in affording broader off-axis performance. From a great many reports and my ears, the LS50 competes with speakers in much higher price ranges...and enclosure sizes. It is unreal what can come out of those small cubes. I don't see any comments like that related to the ATC speaker.

I appreciate your analogy to wines, and you are generally right. This is one case where the big brand name actually did an amazing job of delivering value.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker-measurements#XjdWroaSTqgTdX7D.97
http://www.stereophile.com/content/atv-scm7-v3-loudspeaker-measurements#v2vtMEi0ftgLUUPp.97

Thank you for the links. I can't really understand what it says there. I'm not knowledgeable enough. I suppose you're trying to say those graphs are on the side of LS50? If it's just the case of needing a slightly stronger amp, that's not a problem. I usually don't trust the low end Hz specs for small bookshelves/monitors. I even found that the original data sheet for the ATC's stated a rather poor low end, which I found as being honest (it says 60Hz). I'm still getting the sub, anyhow.

But this is all irrelevant. I have to check the exact price difference. I have to see what would they charge me for those improvements. If the price is the same or close, it's easy.

Thanks!

 

[killdozzer]

@KenM10759 I've checked the prices. I could get the ATC's for 200$ less. Now your avatar clearly states your inclination, however, if you could suspend your bias for a moment (and since I don't know how to read the graphs you've linked) would you give 200$ for LS50 on account of what you read in those reviews (and I do take into account that you haven't actually heard the ATC's).

The question of the day is: Are those specs worth 200$ more?

 

[Alex2507]

KD, I looked up the Cambridge Audio (Azur 351A). It's an integrated amp and only 45 watts. A rec'r (receiver) is the same thing with the advantage of mass production leading to lower prices for more performance. I have witnessed a 20 watt per channel class a amp perform without flaw on like a dozen speakers but I have to go with more power for less money. I can't afford the exotic stuff. I own 2 older Yamaha rec'rs and have my eye out for a Denon 4311. ANY Denon rec'r will have more output than the Azur. Your connectivity requirements aren't special. I know the current models have Air Play and they gotta have USB. Somebody who knows, please chime in here so I don't have to put myself through the gear lust of looking at marketing material. Ah ... maybe later.

Okay, here's a Denon rec'r. It has a good bit more power than the Azur. Scroll down and check out their Network connectivity. It's just an example. It also has pre-outs in case you do want to use even more high powered external amps. You have a big room. If your speaker choice is low sensitivity you may want amps later on. The deal is you have to double the output wattage to raise the volume 3 decibels. That's when you start to pay to play. Anyway, all the big rec'r companies are going to have competitive stuff out there at various price points. My instinct is that Denon has been known for 4 Ohm stability. I still haven't had the pleasure though.

Please disregard my volume control question. I didn't understand that DAC/amp combo meant integrated amp. Now that I have seen the unit I know it's the big knob in the middle.

Hey, I remember lusting after this Parasound pre-amp. Here's the thing. A member here said that it sounded better than a rec'r and a handful of guys agreed. They might have been drunk. That unit has a phono pre-amp but it probably doesn't meet your network requirements and you would still need amps.

Look at your amp options in terms of watts/dollar. A H/T rec'r will basically win every time over integrated amps and even stereo rec'rs. I'm gonna check out your speaker options later.

And after that we'll waylay Swerd with looking at your speaker graphs.

 

[killdozzer]

Thanks man!

Receivers are really not what I’m looking for and H/T receivers even less so. Don’t get mad, you might think; there he is asking for advice but whatever you tell him he doesn’t want. But that’s not the case. I’m looking for a stereo amp with a DAC built in. I don’t like surround (can’t stand it actually, wouldn’t want to listen to music in a surround system), I don’t own a TV and don’t plan on buying one. I’m not into immersion, 7 speakers, 4D, and so on. Stereo both for my music and for my movie projector (without the centre speaker as well ) And for a thousand bucks I could get one hell of an amp/DAC, check these:


Naim

Peachtree

NAD

Cyrus - second hand

Teac


It will be a 2.1 stereo system with a stereo amplifier/DAC. This is really what I want. No additional variables needed. It only widens the debate but unnecessarily.

The only question is whether I’m buying speakers first or the amp first. If I’m trying to buy everything at once, nothing will be of long lasting value so I’m thinking of investing a bit more heavily in one component and getting all the rest just as a temporarily solution. (A good amp and entry level speakers or good speakers and an entry level amp and sub which is to be replaced with something a bit better but not over the top)

I didn’t think Cambridge Audio should be taken seriously, I would get it second hand for 200 – 250 and I would replace it shortly.

Signing off!

 

[KenM10759]

Read the text of the tests. Note that it's the ATC speakers that have a heavier draw on an amp, not the KEF LS50. As for the graphs, mostly ignore the top one for impendence just read the text.

The frequency response range chart is the 2D flat graph and is easy to read. The frequency measured is shown on the left-to-right scale and sound pressure level (dB scale deviance from reference level) is the vertical (top-to-bottom) scale. It shows the low frequency drops like a stone in volume on the ATC SCM7 from about 100hz, while the LS50 slopes off more gradually only 3dB from about 105hz down to about 40hz.

On the high end, the LS50 sustains with a slight increase of about 2.5dB to 15Khz where you would likely no longer hear it. By contrast, the ATC SCM7 really drops off at the top end, a sign of tweeter breakup. The overall curve of the LS50 is smoother, the SMC7 has a 5dB dip between with the woofer transfers over to the tweeter. That smoother curve of the LS50 is why we read in reviews so many comments about exactly that, smooth and accurate reproduction.

The "3D" curves are harder to translate into what you might expect to hear, but the LS50 ones sure look smoother and more linear to me.

Get an audition of each with your music playing. Who knows, maybe you'll like the SCM7 better "just because."

 

[Alex2507]

I took a quick look at Ken's links. I'm not familiar with either speaker but I would run from the ATC based on spec's and graphs. All those integrated amps have lame power ratings. The (Peachtree?) used a 4 Ohm output rating at 0.5% THD. I just don't think that's the amp for your room plus it doesn't have a subwoofer cross over. My familiarity with integrated amps is limited due to the cost effectiveness of rec'rs in that capacity. My advice to you would be not to use surround if you don't like surround and not to plug a TV into it if you don't like TV but get the most wattage you can for the money. You having a different set of priorities is cool. Not every system has to be my system but I wouldn't be looking for anything under 100 watts into 8 Ohms at no more than 0.1% distortion (THD).

Out of the ones you linked I would pick the NAD but with a killer aftermarket warranty. Guys kid about NAD standing for Not Always Dependable. The Teac is class d. Naim is just a name (link didn't work). Peachtree is the cutest though. My advice isn't considered 'expert' yet so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[KenM10759]

I'd go with the NAD too, simpler operation and more features. If budget overall can be increased, the LS50 speakers combined with an NAD C390DD DAC (has 150 watts per channel) would be even better than the 80 watts per channel of the C326BEE with external DAC. Yes, local support for a warranty would be important, though I've not needed mine for the first 5 months of ownership.

 

[Swerd]

killdozzer

Like Ken, I have also heard the KEF LS50 and I think it's a very good speaker. I think the retail price in the US of $1500 is high, and there are other very good speakers that are available in the US, but probably not available in Croatia.

I have heard the KEF and I think it is a neutral sounding speaker (neither too much bass nor too much treble), and overall I think it would be a very satisfying speaker to own for the long run. It isn't difficult to drive, but I don't know what the smallest amp I would power it with. Alex suggested about 100 watts per channel, and you won't be wrong with that. KEF recommends 25 to 100 watts, so it is possible to go lower.

I finally was able to look at the graphs Ken posted for the KEF LS50 and the ATC SCM7 speakers. I agree with Alex:

I took a quick look at Ken's links. I'm not familiar with either speaker but I would run from the ATC based on spec's and graphs.

The KEF LS50 has a relatively smooth frequency response curve. I see nothing that suggests a problem in it. See the black trace in figure 3 from the KEF review:

Compare the frequency response of the KEF to that of the ATC speaker (figure 4). At first glance it doesn't look much different from the KEF. Clearly, it's bass doesn't go as deep. But the unevenness in the range of 500-700 Hz worries me for three reasons. I can't be certain how bad it would sound, but I do believe it will be possible to notice it.

Another important feature about the KEF is revealed in figure 2. This cabinet is very quiet. It is well constructed and internally braced so that it doesn't have any resonant vibrations that you will hear.

Compare the KEF cabinet to the ATC (figure 2). Much more is going on. Notice that there are several long lasting peaks at the same 500-700 Hz range that I mentioned above for the frequency response curve. It suggests something unpleasant sounding is happening.

I won't show the impedance curves, but the ATC curve (figure 1) also suggests something is wrong in the 600 Hz range. For those three reasons, frequency response curve, cabinet resonance, and impedance curve, I believe something unwanted is occurring in the midrange (500-700 Hz) of the ATC. I wonder if it sounds noisy or unclear.

I think the KEF is overall a better speaker. There are advantages to the magnesium/aluminum alloy woofer that KEF makes, and the cabinet is clearly quieter. I think it is worth the higher price.

 

[Alex2507]

I didn't know they were $1500 and only a 100 watt max.

Ken, do you own those KEFs?

 

[KenM10759]

I didn't know they were $1500 and only a 100 watt max.

Ken, do you own those KEFs?

Alex,

I do not own the LS50 but have heard them extensively at the dealer where I bought the KEF R series speakers that I do own. As in my sig, they are R500 floor standing, R200c center and R100 bookshelf. Of those, the R100 are probably closest to the LS50. And the LS50 is far better as mains.

The 100 watt max is only the continuous rating. I'm fairly sure they take transient peaks beyond that, as I've heard them playing at "full song" from a powerful Parasound Halo Integrated. Wow. I should think their 106dB max output @ 100 would satisfy most listeners until they went deaf.

 

[Alex2507]

Alex,

I do not own the LS50 but have heard them extensively at the dealer where I bought the KEF R series speakers that I do own. As in my sig, they are R500 floor standing, R200c center and R100 bookshelf. Of those, the R100 are probably closest to the LS50. And the LS50 is far better as mains.

The 100 watt max is only the continuous rating. I'm fairly sure they take transient peaks beyond that, as I've heard them playing at "full song" from a powerful Parasound Halo Integrated. Wow. I should think their 106dB max output @ 100 would satisfy most listeners until they went deaf.

Thanks for the directions to your sig. Clearly I needed the assist. Now I gotta find Steve81's gear thread to see what model KEFs he's using. I may as well try to figure out the different models to some degree. Between you, Steve and Swerd giving KEF a nod of approval and a market that supports their asking price, I'm convinced KEF delivers.

Where is that 106 db measured at? 1 meter or 2 meter? I'm guessing it's not at like 10'. Either way, that's loud enough. Does that mean that at 50 watts those things put out 103 db? Looking at it like that, the IA's KD is looking at should work nicely. The only thing about the NAD that gave me pause was an identical 4 and 8 Ohm rating. Does that mean that the distortion levels rise so high with a 4 Ohm load that they just stick to the lower wattage of 8 Ohm to hide the rise in THD?

 

[Swerd]

When I heard the KEF LS50s, it was at my house. Ponzio brought them while he paid a visit. He had come to pick up some used SongTowers in Virginia. So we used my B&K 200 wpc amp, and those speakers had no problem with that.

We compared the KEFs directly to my CAOW1s. I'd say they were in the same league for sound quality, not identical but similarly satisfying. I, of course, liked mine better, and Ponzio liked his better.

The only thing I didn't like was KEF's price. If I recall, he said he bought his for about $1200 through his superior negotiation abilities. I think that the Salk SongSurroundI and Ascend Audio Sierra-1 bookshelf speakers that sell for about $900 compete with the KEFs for sound quality. But those are not available to killdozzer.

 

[Alex2507]

Now I remember reading about those LS50s. I forget who it was but they praised them up and down. It might have been RandyB or somebody like that. You should have thrown Vito out for not preferring the CAOWI. Who does he think he is?

 

[Swerd]

You should have thrown Vito out for not preferring the CAOWI. Who does he think he is?

LOL. He did buy the second hand SongTowers that same weekend. And he did notice how similar they sound to the CAOW1 .

We both agreed that it didn't make sense to get rid of the KEFs that he already owned. However, if someone were buying new bookshelf speakers, the Salks, old Philarmonitors (which were available at the time), or Sierra-1 would be a better buy.

I hope killdozzer can find a pair of KEFs at a good price for him. Then it should be easier to find an integrated amp with enough power, let's say 50-100 watt/channel, to drive them, and with the right hook up jacks for what he plans to use.

 

[Alex2507]

How much could shipping to Zagreb be for the SongSurrounds here:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/salk-songseries-speakers-for-sale.98189/

It was only a matter of time. Next we'll be egging him on to buy a table saw and stacks of raw MDF.