Unfair YouTube Strike Policy on Copyright Claims

Status
Not open for further replies.
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Update: 3/18/16:
We are in the process of settling this dispute out of the court system with Ethan Winer of RealTraps. As a show of good faith, we renamed the page title in reference to the real problem at hand, YouTube's Unfair Copyright and Strike Policy.

Ethan has shown good faith by restoring our videos so I've also taken the article off the homepage of our site. It's nice to see mutual cooperation again.



All;

I just wanted to let everyone know that Mr. Ethan Winer of Real Traps decided he didn't like the content in one of our videos so he entered a copyright complaint to Youtube to get them to take it down and put a strike against our account. For those that don't know how serious this is, if your channel gets 3 strikes it gets permanently removed from Youtube.

The video in question was called "The Benefits of Using Multiple Subwoofers in Home Theater".

In the video we talked about how using multi-sub + EQ could cut down on your need for using LF bass traps. We showed an image of a room loaded with bass traps from an article we published back in 2005 by Mr. Winer himself.

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/bass-traps-not-just-for-fisherman

Per our own copyright, any article/video/image posted on Audioholics is property of Audioholics. Ethan knew this when he authored the article nearly 11 years ago.

see: http://www.audioholics.com/groups/admin/reprints

Here is a screen shot of video where we briefly referenced the image:

upload_2016-3-8_0-27-33.png


and if you try to access the actual video on Youtube now, it's broken:

upload_2016-3-8_0-21-32.png


This video has been online for over 7 months with > 15k views and lots of comments all of which are now subject to being lost. In addition, we now have the following restrictions placed upon our account for 6 months:
  1. 15 min video time limit for new published videos
  2. Unable to upload unpublished/unlisted videos
  3. Unable to use Video editing manager

Practice What you Preach?
Incidentally, Mr. Winer has violated copyright of our own website using an image of a layout diagram of my room (without my permission) in his latest article:

http://ethanwiner.com/early_reflections.htm

He has also used at least 4 images from Sound and Vision Magazine to disparage Dr. Floyd Toole's personal home theater. Again, because he disagrees with Dr. Toole's viewpoints on acoustics, specifically the importance of early reflections in small room acoustics for sound reproduction.

See original source: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/advice-audio-insider#2DagBzWBgcwxaIi8.97

If you go to his recent Youtube video on his personal home theater tour:


You will note he potentially violated Wilson Audio Copyrighted image at time index 30 sec and Soundair.com at time index 36 sec.

I'm in the process of contacting all parties that Mr. Winer has potentially committed copyright violations of and contacting Google to issue a DMCA takedown of our personal copyrighted materials. Normally, I wouldn't waste time on such matters, but Mr. Winer is seeking to do damages to our business simply because he doesn't share our viewpoints. As a result, this has forced my hand to take this matter more seriously.

In addition to this copyright stuff, Ethan has posted several threads at AVS Forum to discredit our work and Dr. Floyd Toole on acoustics (specifically early reflections) and multi-sub.

Here is one of several examples: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/2204833-early-reflections-not-beneficial-article-ethan-winer.html

It's one thing to have disagreements with people on the subject of audio, but another to actually cause damages through frivolous legal actions simply because you don't like what the other person said.

 
Last edited:
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Any recourse with youtube?
If he is so convinced of his position on early reflection, he should publish it in a peer reviewed paper. Simple.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Any recourse with youtube?
If he is so convinced of his position on early reflection, he should publish it in a peer reviewed paper. Simple.
No it can take up to 10 business days for Youtube to respond.

Interestingly enough Mr. Winer came to terms with our usage of the image back in August if we annotated per his instruction. We didn't hear a peep and thought the matter was closed. It wasn't until we published this article that he then filled the YT complaint:

http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-calibration/bass-optimization-for-home-theater

I guess when you can't win an argument with substance, you resort to dirty tricks. Seems a lot like more like politics than pursuing truth in audio :rolleyes:
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Gene, I hope you also posted this on AVS.

Until now I believed that Real Traps was a company someone should be proud of supporting. Now, this is interesting. IP and copyright trolls are the scourge of any industry. Typically, it is unethical people/companies.

Mr. Winer, I'm not buying Real Traps or every recommending anyone buy to Real Traps. Heads up GIK Acoustics here I come.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Gene, I hope you also posted this on AVS.

Until now I believed that Real Traps was a company someone should be proud of supporting. Now, this is interesting. IP and copyright trolls are the scourge of any industry. Typically, it is unethical people/companies.

Mr. Winer, I'm not buying Real Traps or every recommending anyone buy to Real Traps. Heads up GIK Acoustics here I come.
I don't want to risk posting a link to my site at AVS as they have strict rules about that but you guys are free to spread the word. This has been quite an assault from Mr. Winer. Admittedly we probably shouldn't have used his room image as an example of a room with too many traps. Hugo was just looking for images on our site to prove a point but we also annotated disclaimers afterwards. He even indicated closure in an email to us after the annotation so we though the matter was closed....

I have some GIK bass traps in for evaluation now. Glenn Kuras and his staff are very courteous based on my dealings with them over the last decade.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
This has been quite an assault from Mr. Winer. Admittedly we probably shouldn't have used his room image as an example of a room with too many traps. Hugo was just looking for images on our site to prove a point but we also annotated disclaimers afterwards. He even indicated closure in an email to us after the annotation so we though the matter was closed....
Then this is no accident?

For example, a mod on this forum accidentally perm-banned me thinking I was a bot due to a thread I started in Steam Vent. I had to create a new account and by chance the topic came up and the ban was reversed.

There are companies which can be hired to dole out DCMA takedowns for pennies. There are ghastly stories of people having their childrens' YouTube videos being taken down due to background music. I'm assuming that is not the case either?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Then this is no accident?

For example, a mod on this forum accidentally perm-banned me thinking I was a bot due to a thread I started in Steam Vent. I had to create a new account and by chance the topic came up and the ban was reversed.

There are companies which can be hired to dole out DCMA takedowns for pennies. There are ghastly stories of people having their childrens' YouTube videos being taken down due to background music. I'm assuming that is not the case either?
This is NO Accident. It takes significant effort to file a complaint on Youtube to make this kind of accusation.

He simply doesn't like us talking about multi-sub as an alternative to heavy bass trapping for sound reproduction systems in small rooms. He's been quite belligerent on AVS and his recent article about us on his site where he used images of my room layout (without my permission).
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
This is NO Accident. It takes significant effort to file a complaint on Youtube to make this kind of accusation.

He simply doesn't like us talking about multi-sub as an alternative to heavy bass trapping for sound reproduction systems in small rooms. He's been quite belligerent on AVS and his recent article about us on his site where he used images of my room layout (without my permission).
I'm sorry to hear about this Gene.

That Winer chap is wrong about pretty much everything.

Dr Floyd Toole is correct. In addition Saul Linkwitz is on record that making rooms too dead is a major factor leading to poor reproduction.

I think that most room treatments are put in to tame bad speakers. I have never felt the need to treat any room I have placed a sound system in, in any of my homes.

Winer's room is a total mess and he must be insane to post it on the net. His speakers are a case in point. They are the Mackie HR624 Mk II speakers.

They would sound awful in most rooms as they have a terrible off axis response, and very bad tweeters. The woofers are low budget Vifa's. The alignment is 6th order using an ABR. 6th order is ported alignment that requires active EQ as part of the tuning. It was used by KEF briefly. It does extend f3, but at the cost of driver excursion limitation. I assume he crosses it over at 80 Hz at least.

The major problem is that the off axis response of those speakers is really awful.

Now we expect a lot of reflection from the room. This is absolutely required for proper spectral and frequency balance at the listening position. If the off axis response is poor the end result will be poor.

So this bloke is just proving the point that if you are daft enough to select speakers like he has you end up having to kill the room reflections to even make them listenable.

I suppose some rooms need some bass traps, but as I have often stated this bass boom and ooze is also very much a speaker problem in my view. If the speakers are low Q and non resonant the will be much less likely to excite room resonance. In my room there are no bass traps and yet the bass is tight and well defined in all listening positions. Transients are done in 0.5 msec.

I don't know which SVS sub he is using. I have to say tough I'm yet to hear a commercial sub I find really pleasing.

In his video the Winer chap comes across to me as a deluded lunatic. It seems his business ethics are in the basement.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I'm sorry to hear about this Gene.

That Winer chap is wrong about pretty much everything.

Dr Floyd Toole is correct. In addition Saul Linkwitz is on record that making rooms too dead is a major factor leading to poor reproduction.

I think that most room treatments are put in to tame bad speakers. I have never felt the need to treat any room I have placed a sound system in, in any of my homes.

Winer's room is a total mess and he must be insane to post it on the net. His speakers are a case in point. They are the Mackie HR624 Mk II speakers.

They would sound awful in most rooms as they have a terrible off axis response, and very bad tweeters. The woofers are low budget Vifa's. The alignment is 6th order using an ABR. 6th order is ported alignment that requires active EQ as part of the tuning. It was used by KEF briefly. It does extend f3, but at the cost of driver excursion limitation. I assume he crosses it over at 80 Hz at least.

The major problem is that the off axis response of those speakers is really awful.

Now we expect a lot of reflection from the room. This is absolutely required for proper spectral and frequency balance at the listening position. If the off axis response is poor the end result will be poor.

So this bloke is just proving the point that if you are daft enough to select speakers like he has you end up having to kill the room reflections to even make them listenable.

I suppose some rooms need some bass traps, but as I have often stated this bass boom and ooze is also very much a speaker problem in my view. If the speakers are low Q and non resonant the will be much less likely to excite room resonance. In my room there are no bass traps and yet the bass is tight and well defined in all listening positions. Transients are done in 0.5 msec.

I don't know which SVS sub he is using. I have to say tough I'm yet to hear a commercial sub I find really pleasing.

In his video the Winer chap comes across to me as a deluded lunatic. It seems his business ethics are in the basement.
Thanks for your great and accurate assessment and support. Yes Ethan's gear choices are quite interesting. He has pretty much publicly stated on other forums that ALL DAC's sound the same and his $150 Pioneer receiver is every bit as good as expensive high end gear. He swore up and down by his Mackie speakers that they are every bit as good as any speaker on the market regardless of price. I argued that those speakers are fine for a nearfield environment (as they were designed for), but not so well suited in a home theater environment for some of the reasons you pointed out in your post. But I digress. Ethan is in the business of selling room treatments so of course he's going to bias his recommendations towards that.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I got a response from YouTube!

Dear Audioholics,

Thank you for your counter notification. It has been forwarded to the party that sent the takedown notification.

Keep in mind that by submitting this counter notification, you’ve initiated a formal legal dispute process. As such, YouTube will handle this process in accordance with the law. This process takes some time, so we kindly ask for your patience.

Upon forwarding your counter notification to the claimant, we will allow them 10 - 14 business days from this date to respond with evidence that they have taken court action against you to prevent the reinstatement of the video(s) in question.

If we receive no response, after that time period your videos will be restored and the associated penalties on your account will be resolved.
Ethan actually originally threatened to take legal action against me for using the image in question so we'll see how far he wants to take this. As I said before, I'm not one for dealing with frivolous lawsuits but I am prepared for a fight if he wants one.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
I got a response from YouTube!



Ethan actually originally threatened to take legal action against me for using the image in question so we'll see how far he wants to take this. As I said before, I'm not one for dealing with frivolous lawsuits but I am prepared for a fight if he wants one.
The sad state of DCMA takedown notices is that there is little to no consequence for someone filling a false claim while the entity affected bears the burden of proving innocence. The falsely accused may lose income or have other cascading issues and meanwhile the accuser get to wring their hands with glee.

Gene, I hope this idiocy is resolved expediently and with minimal aggravation.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
The sad state of DCMA takedown notices is that there is little to no consequence for someone filling a false claim while the entity affected bears the burden of proving innocence. The falsely accused may lose income or have other cascading issues and meanwhile the accuser get to wring their hands with glee.

Gene, I hope this idiocy is resolved expediently and with minimal aggravation.
Agreed. Hopefully the word spreads and acts as a deterrent for him to continue with this.

I haven't posted this on the homepage yet but if I have to, I will do so and even make a Newsletter about it. I'd again rather not waste peoples time with this nonsense.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I got a response from YouTube!



Ethan actually originally threatened to take legal action against me for using the image in question so we'll see how far he wants to take this. As I said before, I'm not one for dealing with frivolous lawsuits but I am prepared for a fight if he wants one.
Be sure to get your ducks in a row about the fact that the image came from your web site, AH, and you have the appropriate disclosure as to who owns it once it is posted to this web site.
His fault for not reading those disclosures and I think would fail in court.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Be sure to get your ducks in a row about the fact that the image came from your web site, AH, and you have the appropriate disclosure as to who owns it once it is posted to this web site.
His fault for not reading those disclosures and I think would fail in court.
Oh we have our ducks in a row including the email where he agreed all was settled once we annotated the video too :)
 
A

andyblackcat

Audioholic General
Gene. This seems a bit silly that you got attacked on single picture. I agree with multiple-subs to address the problematic sub/bass snags in everyone's room that has its difficulties.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I don't want to risk posting a link to my site at AVS as they have strict rules about that but you guys are free to spread the word. This has been quite an assault from Mr. Winer. Admittedly we probably shouldn't have used his room image as an example of a room with too many traps.
You are permitted fair use as this was used as an educational aid. Hopefully you are pointin out the fair use to Yahoo(Google).
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
You are permitted fair use as this was used as an educational aid. Hopefully you are pointin out the fair use to Yahoo(Google).
Google gives you 200 characters to respond which I used up half of them linking to the AH editorial site as the source of the picture.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
WTF Ethan just did this to another video of ours. OK now I make this front page news.

upload_2016-3-14_16-13-13.png
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Uh Gene, he's going for the 3 strikes.... He must have a serious hard on for you for some reason.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top