Unfair YouTube Strike Policy on Copyright Claims

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H

Hocky

Full Audioholic
dang... I was about to buy an assortment of room treatments, too. I guess that takes RealTraps off of my list of vendors.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Uh Gene, he's going for the 3 strikes.... He must have a serious hard on for you for some reason.
No Youtube strikes first and asks questions later. I am readying the article for the homepage.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I mean he's trying to get your entire AH channel deleted.
Yes he is and now I am getting my lawyer involved to prevent that. YouTube policy is ridiculous and I had no idea it was so easy to damage someone's channel like this over a tumbnail image.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Yes he is and now I am getting my lawyer involved to prevent that. YouTube policy is ridiculous and I had no idea it was so easy to damage someone's channel like this over a tumbnail image.
Check out 'Eli the Computer Guy' and reach out to him. He just went through something similar with a TOS violation (that wasn't really a violation) and may have some insight.

He's got enough subscribers that he actually was a assigned a real human being for contact purposes.

https://www.youtube.com/user/elithecomputerguy
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Google gives you 200 characters to respond which I used up half of them linking to the AH editorial site as the source of the picture.
Gene, Use their own service to shorten urls next time to save space for more important info.
https://goo.gl/
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
This is NO Accident. It takes significant effort to file a complaint on Youtube to make this kind of accusation.

He simply doesn't like us talking about multi-sub as an alternative to heavy bass trapping for sound reproduction systems in small rooms. He's been quite belligerent on AVS and his recent article about us on his site where he used images of my room layout (without my permission).
Gob-smackingly petty, unbelievable. What a horse's ass that guy is. Heavy bass trapping is also the very last thing I would do to improve the response of a room. As far as I have seen, it costs a small fortune and isn't terribly effective, and who wants to live in a room that looks like the set of a science fiction movie? Multiple subs and EQing is the way to go. Ethan is a bone-head, and his "science" is rubbish.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
If someone starts a thread on other forums, they should quote and post the link here. Get that Google SEO working in Audioholics' favor :).

Sadly, my previous post, regarding there being no repercussion for false DCMA takedown notices, is turning prophetic. Ugh! This was not the direction I was thinking the fude would go.

Gene, best of luck. Maybe, you can use Audioholics as the platform to shine the spotlight on how unfair the DCMA bs really is. As much as we love AV, we can thank RIAA & MPAA lobbying for it.
 
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agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Gene, maybe you should put an Audioholics copyright watermark on any image posted in your articles and used as slides for videos.

Also, maybe work with your lawyer to add stipulation in your author subcontract agreement to clarify that anyone claiming copyright will bear the cost to Audioholics to defend against the false claim once its proven to be so.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Gob-smackingly petty, unbelievable. What a horse's ass that guy is. Heavy bass trapping is also the very last thing I would do to improve the response of a room. As far as I have seen, it costs a small fortune and isn't terribly effective, and who wants to live in a room that looks like the set of a science fiction movie? Multiple subs and EQing is the way to go. Ethan is a bone-head, and his "science" is rubbish.
That's what we've been saying all along. We are NOT Anti-bass traps, but you can cut the need of them down significantly if you deploy multi-sub and SFM. Harman has proven this in EVERY demo we've heard at the trade shows and I just proved it in this article which Ethan obviously feels greatly threatened by.

See: http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-calibration/bass-optimization-for-home-theater
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Gene, maybe you should put an Audioholics copyright watermark on any image posted in your articles and used as slides for videos.

Also, maybe work with your lawyer to add stipulation in your author subcontract agreement to clarify that anyone claiming copyright will bear the cost to Audioholics to defend against the false claim once its proven to be so.
Great suggestions. Luckily a close friend of mine (who actually incorporated Audioholics when I started it) is friends with one of the top Copyright/Patent attorneys in the country. I will be discussing this with him towards the middle of the week to weigh my options. I would have NEVER pursued this but Ethan has gone beyond sour grapes with us by deliberately damaging my That is something that I will NOT stand for or tolerate in the slightest.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
If someone starts a thread on other forums, they should quote and post the link here. Get that Google SEO working in Audioholics' favor :).

Sadly, my previous post, regarding there being no repercussion for false DCMA takedown notices, is turning prophetic. Ugh! This was not the direction I was thinking the fude would go.

Gene, best of luck. Maybe, you can use Audioholics as the platform to shine the spotlight on how unfair the DCMA bs really is. As much as we love AV, we can thank RIAA & MPAA lobbying for it.
Honestly its Youtube that is the problem. They take a claimants word without giving the defendant a chance to prove them wrong. It's like charging someone for murder with NO trial. No due process whatsoever. We've had perfect standing with Youtube since I started the channel back in 2010. No history of EVER violating ANY Youtube rules. Our channel gets > 350k views/mo, has over 2 million minutes/mo watched and over 29k subscribers yet anyone with a YouTube ID and an image that matches ours on their site can do this. It's disturbing and I will fight it!
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
I have no comment on the legal situation, as I've only had excellent experiences with both Ethan and Gene. (Although the snarky jab at Ethan's better half is irrelevant and can only worsen the situation.) However I do disagree with two statements in the multi-sub article.

The first I disagree with being that bass traps absorbing energy is a waste. While I can understand the perspective that the energy is otherwise potentially exploitable if it reflects back into the room, to help provide constructive or deconstructive interface for the purpose of frequency response, I think the fact you cannot have tight control over which frequencies and the delayed time both significantly outweigh any potential benefits. It's only wasted if you really wanted energy from a second ago coming back to mess with the sound you want to be hearing now.

The second I disagree with is that room correction software can be used to equal effect as increased absorption. The majority of room correction software does not properly deal with much more than frequency response, and even then without taking into account sound delays due to reflection. Even Dirac, which I use, cannot address these issues and you are definitely better off starting with a less reflective room. Multiple subs help even out issues with frequency response due to the physical surfaces and geometry of the room, and delay settings help ensure everything arrives at your critical listening point at the right time, but none of that addresses issues due to reflected sound.

I think this is reflected in your waterfall graphs for the 1 sub no EQ vs. 5 subs w/EQ. Overall the decay of the 5 subs w/EQ is longer, even though the frequency response is much better and there are a few points where the decay does get better.

In my experience the best results come from as dead a room as possible, although in practice this is very difficult to approach to any degree for most people and even with significant flexibility and resources basically impossible to achieve in a personal home. However I would still consider this the ideal goal to aim for.

The one exception might be the Beolit 90 by B&O. This speaker has some very complicated software driving very specific adjustments that can seriously compensate for a room's natural acoustic behavior. I was extremely impressed by how well these speakers do what they claim. Given what they provide, and what you don't have to buy in exchange, I don't think their price is at all unreasonable. The only major downside is the lack of choice (you have to go with what B&O picked for you) and no announced upgrade path.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I have no comment on the legal situation, as I've only had excellent experiences with both Ethan and Gene. (Although the snarky jab at Ethan's better half is irrelevant and can only worsen the situation.) However I do disagree with two statements in the multi-sub article.

The first I disagree with being that bass traps absorbing energy is a waste. While I can understand the perspective that the energy is otherwise potentially exploitable if it reflects back into the room, to help provide constructive or deconstructive interface for the purpose of frequency response, I think the fact you cannot have tight control over which frequencies and the delayed time both significantly outweigh any potential benefits. It's only wasted if you really wanted energy from a second ago coming back to mess with the sound you want to be hearing now.

The second I disagree with is that room correction software can be used to equal effect as increased absorption. The majority of room correction software does not properly deal with much more than frequency response, and even then without taking into account sound delays due to reflection. Even Dirac, which I use, cannot address these issues and you are definitely better off starting with a less reflective room. Multiple subs help even out issues with frequency response due to the physical surfaces and geometry of the room, and delay settings help ensure everything arrives at your critical listening point at the right time, but none of that addresses issues due to reflected sound.

I think this is reflected in your waterfall graphs for the 1 sub no EQ vs. 5 subs w/EQ. Overall the decay of the 5 subs w/EQ is longer, even though the frequency response is much better and there are a few points where the decay does get better.

In my experience the best results come from as dead a room as possible, although in practice this is very difficult to approach to any degree for most people and even with significant flexibility and resources basically impossible to achieve in a personal home. However I would still consider this the ideal goal to aim for.

The one exception might be the Beolit 90 by B&O. This speaker has some very complicated software driving very specific adjustments that can seriously compensate for a room's natural acoustic behavior. I was extremely impressed by how well these speakers do what they claim. Given what they provide, and what you don't have to buy in exchange, I don't think their price is at all unreasonable. The only major downside is the lack of choice (you have to go with what B&O picked for you) and no announced upgrade path.
Hi Joshua;

Bass traps are absorbers and thus they absorb energy out of the room. It's basic physics. You can't absorb without removing energy. While a few measured points in space may see an increase level due minimizing destructive interference, the overall energy distribution of the room will be lower.

SFM is NOT simple EQ or room correction and NOBODY claims either can replace absorption. I apologize if my article lead you to that conclusion. SFM, or Sound Field Management, is indeed a reference to a very specific Harman proprietary system to reduce seat-to-seat variations. Part of it is the usage of multiple subs. Todd Welti and Dr. Sean Olive's team developed an algorithm that further reduces seat-to-seat variation, which is part of their PC-based “ARCOS” characterization, EQ and processing solution. During the characterization phase, each subwoofer is measured independently, and each is equalized, and otherwise adjusted independently only for the purpose of minimizing seat-to-seat variations. Only after that is completed does the system calculate the coefficients for global EQ, which is really only possible once one has reduced the seat-to-seat variations in response. Harman actually has a patent on it and their tech papers and patent prove that it does fix seat to seat consistency. Again it actually measures delay, phase, level, slopes, etc and computes best possible settings for each sub to get them to integrate optimally across all seats. Once you do that, then you can apply Global EQ to flatten bumps.

Multi-sub fixes seat-seat consistency. EQ and SFM further tunes that it and reduces bumps to flatten the response in frequency domain which in turn improves the time domain behavior since they are related.

I would continue to reiterate the points in my article about speakers being min-phase and rooms at low F being min-phase but I will just quote one of the top experts in the field, Dr. Floyd Toole from a post he made in another thread:

We tend not to talk about the decay of modes as reverberation time, but you can if you like. Reverberation is normally considered to be the decay of reflected sounds in a venue, and that happens above the transition frequency.

As for the decay of modes after equalization we must first specify that we are addressing specific modes, one at a time, using high resolution measurements and specific parametric filters tuned to the center frequency of the mode, with a bandwidth appropriate to its Q and we are reducing resonant peaks, not filling acoustical interference dips - a BAD thing to do because then you have added a high-Q resonance that is radiated everywhere in the room to fill a dip that exists at a specific location. This is something that is not well done by the automated room-EQ systems. It requires human intervention at the present time. The good news is that in reality most rooms exhibit only a small number of, sometimes only one, problematic modes.

In my book I show frequency and time-domain performance of modes in Figure 13.20 (positional EQ), 13.21 (positional vs electronic EQ), Figure 13.22 (2-sub mode cancelling), and 13.24 (straight EQ). In all cases flattening the frequency response has shortened the ringing. In the multi-sub Sound Field Management scheme, Figures 13.18 and 13.19, the resonances are substantially eliminated and the bass is, yes, "tight".

Conclusion: room modes at low frequencies behave as minimum-phase phenomena, so long as they reveal themselves above the average response. When a prominent resonant peak is attenuated by whatever means, including bass traps, the time domain is improved. Obviously, at lower levels there will be non-minimum-phase events, but they are not audible problems - the resonances are.

Bass traps work. They are just big and ugly. I have chosen not to diminish the space or degrade the visual impressions of my rooms with them and so have focused on other solutions. :)
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
Bass traps are absorbers and thus they absorb energy out of the room. It's basic physics. You can't absorb without removing energy. While a few measured points may see an increase level due destructive interference, the overall energy distribution of the room will be lower.
Yes—maybe I misunderstood what the article was trying to say. I think it's good for the energy to be absorbed. I thought the article was saying that's a bad thing, because the energy is then lost or wasted.
SFM is NOT simple EQ or room correction and NOBODY claims either can replace absorption. I apologize if my article lead you to that conclusion. SFM, or Sound Field Management, is indeed a reference to a very specific Harman proprietary system to reduce seat-to-seat variations.
I thought the article was saying that those solutions are potential replacements for absorption, because of the last sentence in this paragraph:

Please note I am not advocating against bass traps. Bass traps can still be a very useful tool as supplementation for reproducing music, especially in asymmetric rooms. Bass traps are often necessary when producing music using instruments in a recording studio environment. In such instances you simply have no alternative if you want better bass. However in reproduction of music in a home theater environment utilizing active subwoofers this is NOT the case.

While reducing seat-to-seat variation of frequency response is great thing, and absorption can help one achieve that, I don't think software like ARCOS alone can provide all of the same benefits as absorption. I'm not very familiar with ARCOS but from the article at http://www.jblsynthesis.com/syn-arcos.html it sounds like it only addresses frequency response and delay due to positioning.

And therefore I cannot agree with the last sentence in the paragraph above. Which maybe you did not intend to be interpreted the way I interpreted it.
I would continue to reiterate the points in my article about speakers being min-phase and rooms at low F being min-phase but I will just quote one of the top experts in the field, Dr. Floyd Toole from a post he made in another thread:
I don't see anything in Toole's text that I disagree with. Note that he only says the time domain is improved where resonant peaks are attenuated. Which makes perfect sense and is visible in your waterfall plots. But he does not say that the time domain is improved anywhere else when all you have focused on is improving the frequency response. I argue they will become worse if addressing frequency response using multiple subs without absorption, and this is also illustrated by your waterfall plots. I also don't think his words can be translated into a belief that SFM or EQ or room correction addresses the same issues that absorption does. But after reading your post here I'm not sure anymore that's what you were trying to say.

I recommend as much absorption as possible, or whatever else can release acoustic energy out of the listening area, and then applying software processing afterwards.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Guys;

Something I just noticed and updated my article accordingly.

However this was obviously not the case as evident by Mr. Ethan's recent actions taken against us on YouTube. First by issuing a copyright infringement against our Multi-Sub video, second by issuing a similar copyright infringement for our Room Acoustics Video.



Second Audioholics Video Ethan Winer Issued a Copyright Infringement to Youtube

Notice this time Ethan Winer filed the complaint with Youtube under his personal account (Ethan Winer) instead of Real Traps like he did for the first claim. This was likely done to not draw suspicion with Youtube of the same person hitting us multiple times for the same image. This is very clever and very cowardly in our opinion.​
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Yes—maybe I misunderstood what the article was trying to say. I think it's good for the energy to be absorbed. I thought the article was saying that's a bad thing, because the energy is then lost or wasted.

I thought the article was saying that those solutions are potential replacements for absorption, because of the last sentence in this paragraph:

Please note I am not advocating against bass traps. Bass traps can still be a very useful tool as supplementation for reproducing music, especially in asymmetric rooms. Bass traps are often necessary when producing music using instruments in a recording studio environment. In such instances you simply have no alternative if you want better bass. However in reproduction of music in a home theater environment utilizing active subwoofers this is NOT the case.

While reducing seat-to-seat variation of frequency response is great thing, and absorption can help one achieve that, I don't think software like ARCOS alone can provide all of the same benefits as absorption. I'm not very familiar with ARCOS but from the article at http://www.jblsynthesis.com/syn-arcos.html it sounds like it only addresses frequency response and delay due to positioning.

And therefore I cannot agree with the last sentence in the paragraph above. Which maybe you did not intend to be interpreted the way I interpreted it.

I don't see anything in Toole's text that I disagree with. Note that he only says the time domain is improved where resonant peaks are attenuated. Which makes perfect sense and is visible in your waterfall plots. But he does not say that the time domain is improved anywhere else when all you have focused on is improving the frequency response. I argue they will become worse if addressing frequency response using multiple subs without absorption, and this is also illustrated by your waterfall plots. I also don't think his words can be translated into a belief that SFM or EQ or room correction addresses the same issues that absorption does. But after reading your post here I'm not sure anymore that's what you were trying to say.

I recommend as much absorption as possible, or whatever else can release acoustic energy out of the listening area, and then applying software processing afterwards.
Read this particular statement made by Dr. Floyd Toole again please.

Conclusion: room modes at low frequencies behave as minimum-phase phenomena, so long as they reveal themselves above the average response. When a prominent resonant peak is attenuated by whatever means, including bass traps, the time domain is improved.
If you fix the frequency response, you fix the time domain response which is also decay time. He is very clear on this also in his book and various postings on this forum. Harman demo rooms almost NEVER have any passive treatments at low frequency. They rely solely on multi-sub and SFM and the resultant bass is spectacular, tight and consistent from seat to seat.

You absolutely can cut down on the need and possibly eliminate the need for bass traps if you do this approach. Absorption above bass frequencies to control reflections is another topic.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Gene, best of luck to you in defending against false allegations of copyright infringement leveled against you by Real Bass Traps and Ethen Winer, one of the same as you pointed out. After going through this thread, it would appear that Ethan is trying to shut you down based over a difference in technical opinion. I won't be buying any product from his company based on this. Maybe hanging around the lab at Real Bass Traps has absorbed all common sense from Ethen and left him to be an embittered degenerate.
 
F

Floyd Toole

Acoustician and Wine Connoisseur
My name and writings are being displayed, so I thought I would provide a bit more context. First, I suggest you read Chapter 13 of my book that discusses all of this in more detail than can be provided in a forum. But first, I need to admit to two biases. (1) I believe in the scientific process. Opinions count only if backed up by accurate data. (2) on the particular topic at issue here, bass traps - or more correctly low-frequency absorbers - about 30 years ago I was confronted with a room, my room, that boomed intolerably. The normal acoustical-consultant solution would have been to install low-frequency absorbers. Analysis of my situation revealed that to attenuate the offending resonances would take a significant number of these devices that are large, not attractive, and because the room already existed, could not be built into the structure as might be possible in a new construction. So, my bias: my wife and I like art, paintings and sculpture, so visual aesthetics matter. We also had a great view, and large windows existed where some of the absorbers would most logically be located.

I took it as a challenge to find a more acceptable solution. An analysis of the offending room modes indicated that it might be possible to attenuate them by using two subwoofers in the right locations. This is shown in Figure 13.22 in my book, with before and after steady-state frequency responses and waterfalls. The offending modes were indeed cancelled, leaving only a narrow interference dip, and the "boom" went away, leaving impressively tight bass. I was both pleased with the result and proud to have "discovered" an almost invisible solution to the problem.

But were the modes eliminated? Yes, but only when the sound system was running, and only for the sounds radiated by it. Turn it off, pick up a bass guitar and the offensive modes are back. So, if the room is to be a performance space, either for recreation or a recording studio, the electroacoustic mode canceling is useless. Go buy some bass traps and get on with it.

In my other listening room I had a similar problem, but this one was more easily solved. It was a very large room, 32 feet at its high point - my "classical" music listening room designed to be an acoustically diffuse extension of the stereo sound stage, not to compete with it. For that kind of program it performed superbly, adding spaciousness that two loudspeakers alone cannot deliver. There was one monster resonance at 42 Hz. Again, our extensive view windows, and my antipathy to unattractive objects caused me to think of alternatives to low-frequency absorbers. This situation is described in figure 13.20 where I show what I call "positional equalization" - finding a seating location where the ears were not strongly coupled to the offending standing wave. I show that when it sounded right, the frequency response and waterfalls looked right. The "boom" went away. This was a totally passive solution - no modifications except that my chair ended up in a silly location 5 feet out from the back wall. I put up with this for a while, but when I started to see tracks in the carpet from dragging the chair out for my listening sessions I decided that a better solution was needed. Attentive readers will have noted that I could have moved the loudspeakers instead of myself, but in that situation it was simply not an option.

So, I put the chair back where it logically belonged, plugged a parametric equalizer into the system, matched the center frequency and Q of the resonance and turned it down. The measured steady-state room curve looked a lot like the one with the chair moved, and the bass boom was similarly gone. I show these measurements in Figure 13.21 in my book. Room resonances at low frequencies behave as minimum-phase systems and optimized EQ can repair both the amplitude and time domain problems. Off-the-shelf automated "room EQ" or "room correction" programs may or may not be able to do this properly. Most do not.

But was the mode eliminated? Yes, but only when the sound system was running and only for the sounds radiated by it. The same as in the mode canceling system, but this time also, only for the prime listening location. Other locations in the room took their chances. But, for me, a mostly solitary listener, it was a totally effective solution, and it was totally invisible.

As history has it, in 1991 I moved from the National Research Council and my Canadian home, to southern California to join Harman International as Corporate Vice President of Engineering. In addition to my mainstream duties with the many companies under the corporate umbrella, I set up a small research group, aimed at pushing the envelope of knowledge - there was no product development, but only ideas that might benefit products. I never forgot the neat acoustical solutions just described, but in thinking about it further I reckoned that in small rooms there are only a small number of modes in the subwoofer frequency range - maybe there could be a more generalized solution that could benefit multiple listeners. After I hired Todd Welti we had the means to explore this using his expertise with Matlab. It was not long before he had the first multi-sub solutions. No more than four subs were needed, and two could do a reasonable job - but only in simple rectangular rooms and only for seats in the middle of the room. Figure 13.17 shows some results. This is not what many people think: more subs "filling in" holes. It is pure room mode manipulation, reducing the number of active modes in the room so that there are some areas that are not dominated by booms. The subs must be identical and in specific locations. But simple rectangular rooms are not everywhere.

We needed more, and besides, my new listening room was not a simple rectangle, and again I was not enthusiastic about filling it with bass traps. The expression "necessity is the mother of invention" is very apt. So Todd Welti and another employee Allan Devantier went to work, and came up with something we call Sound Field Management. This is much more complicated, involving transfer-function measurements from each subwoofer location to each specified seating location. An algorithm then chews away at the data and comes up with specifications for the signal processing necessary for the signals being delivered to each of the (usually) four subs. Amplitude, delay and one parametric filter will be specified. The goal is to minimize the bass variations among the specified seats so that equalization, if it is necessary, will be equally effective for all listeners. It works superbly. My room is shown in Figure 13.18 and another in Figure 13.19. There are no bass booms. Kick drums are "tight".

Again, were the room modes eliminated? Yes, but only when the audio system is runnng, and only for the sounds radiated by it. Now, though, we have done it for several seats, and in practice one finds that the bass is comparably good in the intervening spaces - put on a loop of kick drum and bass guitar and walk around the room. The bass response is tight and very consistent, and the funny thing is that the normal sense of a "room" has disappeared. It is not inexpensive, and it is not universally available (pity), but it is a very effective and not visually obtrusive solution.

Would bass traps have delivered a similarly good result? There is no reason to think that they would not have yielded a greatly improved bass response. It would just have been a very different looking room. If the physical volume and visual aesthetics of bass traps are not a problem, they work. It is straightforward physics. If your are building a studio or performance space, they are the only solution. But for sound reproducing rooms, now we have some alternatives. Low-frequency absorption is always a good thing, and if you can find ways to incorporate it, do so. It will make whatever else you do work even better. Something few people realize is that a single layer of drywall on studs (metal or wood) makes an effective low-frequency membrane absorber. Figure 21.7 in my book shows a comparison between one and two layers.

Whatever solution(s) you choose, it is likely that some bass equalization will improve things. Just don't automatically extend the equalization above a few hundred Hz, because that is where the loudspeaker itself takes over and if you have good loudspeakers you might risk making them worse.

Make your choices, it is a free world.
 
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