Really Boring Stuff Only III: Resurrection

[TheWarrior]

No need to apologize. I'm in danger of being a pushy fanboy. I hope that if you ever try Ascend again, your experience is top notch.

Lol! I may not have actually heard Ascend's before, which is what I am trying to identify! I hear so many postive reviews, the designs look solid, I am sure they live up to the hype!

Although, also admitting my own guilt, I'd have to hear the 70-20xr in how it compares to the 70-10d in the similarly priced Philharmonic 3's ;-)

 

[fuzz092888]

Lol! I may not have actually heard Ascend's before, which is what I am trying to identify! I hear so many postive reviews, the designs look solid, I am sure they live up to the hype!

Although, also admitting my own guilt, I'd have to hear the 70-20xr in how it compares to the 70-10d in the similarly priced Philharmonic 3's ;-)

IMO, the differences between the 70-20XR and 70-10D are minimal after implementation in a good design. Two of the biggest differences are in dispersion and power handling. The 70-20 is wider and therefore behaves much more closely to a 3/4" dome in terms of dispersion IIRC. The other is in terms of power power handling and SPL. The 70-20XR is a little more robust as well, again IIRC. There are other differences, and certain specs can be specified by the designer (for the 70-20).

IOW, the 70-20XR is just as awesome as the 70-10 with a few small-ish differences due to the shape and size.

 

[TheWarrior]

IMO, the differences between the 70-20XR and 70-10D are minimal after implementation in a good design. Two of the biggest differences are in dispersion. The 70-20 is wider and therefore behaves much more closely to a 3/4" dome in terms of dispersion IIRC. The other is in terms of power power handling and SPL. The 70-20XR is a little more robust as well, again IIRC. There are other differences, and certain specs can be specified by the manufacturer.

IOW, the 70-20XR is just as awesome as the 70-10 with a few small-ish differences due to the shape and size.

I've never been so convinced of a phantom center as with the Phil's, so if these have even wider dispersion, that is intriguing for sure!

However I won't ever be running tube amps for anything but instruments, so the amorphous core is frivolous!

 

[fuzz092888]

I've never been so convinced of a phantom center as with the Phil's, so if these have even wider dispersion, that is intriguing for sure!

However I won't ever be running tube amps for anything but instruments, so the amorphous core is frivolous!

Having lived with both for awhile now. I would downplay the differences in actual use. It's debatable whether or not you'll hear differences between the two. Dennis Murphy would be the one to ask, he's worked with both and designed crossovers with both and I definitely trust his ear.

 

[KEW]

Would that be "fix them in a professional capacity" or "design them in a professional capacity". Apparently Fluance hadn't tried very hard on their first try. If Dennis's traces are representative (they do resemble Mark's but not Gene's) those speakers have more problems than mid range drivers wired with opposite polarity.

To be fair, there may easily have been more than just one error made during assembly. But that's what quality control inspection is for. This wouldn't be the first time that Chinese factories showed their unwillingness to inspect for mistakes or failures, and to reject or fix them once they find them. More often in China, QC failure means Hong Kong Sales Opportunity.

Mark also measured and plotted individual drivers, off the top of my head, I remember that it did not look like the mid had a HPF installed.

They should at least be doing some QC sampling as they arrive in North America.
A little too much "don't ask, don't tell" for any business which has the future in mind.

 

[fuzz092888]

I don't think I've ever noticed before that the "Likes Received" only counts likes, but on the notable members page it counts all positive ratings. Curious that there is the difference.

 

[fuzz092888]

I don't think Jeff Bagby had "X Gon' Give It To Ya" in mind when he designed the Testarossa

 

[agarwalro]

IMO, the differences between the 70-20XR and 70-10D are minimal after implementation in a good design. Two of the biggest differences are in dispersion and power handling. The 70-20 is wider and therefore behaves much more closely to a 3/4" dome in terms of dispersion IIRC. The other is in terms of power power handling and SPL. The 70-20XR is a little more robust as well, again IIRC. There are other differences, and certain specs can be specified by the designer (for the 70-20).

IOW, the 70-20XR is just as awesome as the 70-10 with a few small-ish differences due to the shape and size.

The Sierra 2 tweeter I just replaced looks considerably different from the 70-10D or 70-20XR pictures online. When compared to the 70-10D it appears the back box is absent (and the obvious round vs square face plate). When compared to the 70-20XR, it looks tiny, I mean miniscule. The box my tweeter shipped in looks smaller than the 70-20XR back box, haha!

If you said the Ascend Sierra 2 tweeter is interchangeable with the 70-10D (along with crossover tweaks) and be undistinguished, I'll run with it.

The 70-20XR, has much better thermal resilience, can be crossed over lower and does not have as wide dispersion, compared to 70-10D. The combined effect might not be insignificant. I've not heard them back to back in comparable design speakers, so this is an informed guess.

Last but not the least, there seem to be several versions 70-10 out there. DM mentioned the Sierra 2 tweeter cost $60 OEM (he acquired a pair of Sierra 2 with blown tweeters and played with installing RAAL replacements). I can tell you it was not much less than the Madisound price for a 70-10D (DF did give me a split price and I forfeit the damaged tweeter). I didn't mishear DM (now I'm second guessing myself, maybe he said $260) and I'm confident DF is not ringing in a 400% profit margin on the Sierra 2 tweeters.

 

[agarwalro]

Having lived with both for awhile now. I would downplay the differences in actual use. It's debatable whether or not you'll hear differences between the two. Dennis Murphy would be the one to ask, he's worked with both and designed crossovers with both and I definitely trust his ear.

Okay I missed the part where you actually lived with the 70-10 and 70-20. I'll show myself out...

 

[agarwalro]

I don't think Jeff Bagby had "X Gon' Give It To Ya" in mind when he designed the Testarossa

That is the only DMX track I like and remember.

 

[fuzz092888]

The Sierra 2 tweeter I just replaced looks considerably different from the 70-10D or 70-20XR pictures online. When compared to the 70-10D it appears the back box is absent (and the obvious round vs square face plate). When compared to the 70-20XR, it looks tiny, I mean miniscule. The box my tweeter shipped in looks smaller than the 70-20XR back box, haha!

If you said the Ascend Sierra 2 tweeter is interchangeable with the 70-10D (along with crossover tweaks) and be undistinguished, I'll run with it.

That's because it is a completely different tweeter. OEM only, and designed to come into at a lower price point IIRC, but still deliver considerable performance.

The 70-20XR, has much better thermal resilience, can be crossed over lower and does not have as wide dispersion, compared to 70-10D. The combined effect might not be insignificant. I've not heard them back to back in comparable design speakers, so this is an informed guess.

Similar enough that at normal listening volumes you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference in similar designs IMO.

Last but not the least, there seem to be several versions 70-10 out there. DM mentioned the Sierra 2 tweeter cost $60 OEM (he acquired a pair of Sierra 2 with blown tweeters and played with installing RAAL replacements). I can tell you it was not much less than the Madisound price for a 70-10D (DF did give me a split price and I forfeit the damaged tweeter). I didn't mishear DM and I'm confident DF is not ringing in a 400% profit margin on the Sierra 2 tweeters.

Are you sure the price wasn't for the replacement kit and not for a whole new tweeter?

 

[fuzz092888]

Okay I missed the part where you actually lived with the 70-10 and 70-20. I'll show myself out...

Still live The Testarossa's have the 70-20 and of course the Phil 3's have the 70-10. Oddly enough, one is AM core and one is not.

 

[agarwalro]

Are you sure the price wasn't for the replacement kit and not for a whole new tweeter?

Kit? As in, tweeter and crossover? Then definitely not.

I did get a whole new tweeter. I sent in the tweeter I removed. The package I received back only had the A.OK tweeter which I dropped back in.

While DF seem to be a really nice person and Ascend seems to be up and up (I was given a split price)... There is the supply and demand aspect. It would suck if I just got the piss taken out of me. Especially, since I was upfront about dropping the speaker instead of trying to pass it off as a defective that developed for no reason.

 

[fuzz092888]

Kit? As in, tweeter and crossover? Then definitely not.

I did get a whole new tweeter. I sent in the tweeter I removed. The package I received back only had the A.OK tweeter which I dropped back in.

While DF seem to be a really nice person and Ascend seems to be up and up (I was given a split price)... There is the supply and demand aspect. It would suck if I just got the piss taken out of me. Especially, since I was upfront about dropping the speaker instead of trying to pass it off as a defective that developed for no reason.

Nope they make ribbon replacement kits. If there's no damage to the rest of the unit and the only damage is to the element, there are replacement kits that are far cheaper than replacing the whole tweeter.

 

[agarwalro]

Nope they make ribbon replacement kits. If there's no damage to the rest of the unit and the only damage is to the element, there are replacement kits that are far cheaper than replacing the whole tweeter.

Ooh! Right, I knew about those. I think Madisound has the 70-10 kit for $40. Not knowing if it was applicable to the Sierra 2's custom RAAL and putting my trust in Dave I sent the damaged tweeter in. He said it could not be repaired. I have no choice but to defer to his evaluation and resolution.

Ugh! Doubt is a bitch.

 

[agarwalro]

Now I recall, Dina@Ascend was shocked when I told her Dave approved $xxx.xx and immediately asked if he approved a split price. So, the full price it can't be that far off from what I was quoted.

My brain needs to stop finding conspiracy where none exists.

 

[strube]

I come back here to lurk after years in hiding and I see you are talking non-boring audio-related things in the boring thread. Shameful.

 

[herbu]

More often in China, QC failure means Hong Kong Sales Opportunity.

Interesting you should say that. Oftentimes when Chinese engineers & managers came here for business, they wanted to go shopping. They would stock up on Levi's. Not only for themselves, but they would have a shopping list for friends at home. They also liked home electronics.

I asked if that stuff wasn't available in China. They said yes, but the quality of the same product was better here. They believed that some Chinese manufacturing sent the best quality stuff here, and kept the lesser quality stuff for sale in China.

 

[Swerd]

Interesting you should say that. Oftentimes when Chinese engineers & managers came here for business, they wanted to go shopping. They would stock up on Levi's. Not only for themselves, but they would have a shopping list for friends at home. They also liked home electronics.

I asked if that stuff wasn't available in China. They said yes, but the quality of the same product was better here. They believed that some Chinese manufacturing sent the best quality stuff here, and kept the lesser quality stuff for sale in China.

People who have had direct experience with Chinese contract manufacturing have told me about this. The first price they quote for manufacturing something to a contractor's specs didn't include anything about what happens to items that fail QC inspection. The price was attractively low.

If you add language to the contract specifying exactly how QC inspections will be done, that QC failures will be repaired or destroyed, and not sold with a different brand name or with a counterfeit brand name without warranty (as in the gray market) outside the USA, then the contract price goes up significantly.

Apparently the Chinese concepts and practices of trademark or brand identity or intellectual property rights differ from our own. Many US companies looking into Chinese contract manufacturing have learned this the hard way.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

I come back here to lurk after years in hiding and I see you are talking non-boring audio-related things in the boring thread. Shameful.

Shameful is our middle name.