Burning Up Zone 2?

[Seth Crawford]

Hello, A few years ago we remodeled our home and had speakers built-in throughout the house. The set-up has 13 ceiling speakers. 4 speakers in our TV room ran to the primary speaker inputs on the receiver (zone 1), the remaining 9 speakers are all ran through a speaker selector and then into the zone 2 input. We have our tv, cable and dvd player ran through the receiver as well. Our goal is to be able to watch tv or movie in the tv room and be able to have music going through the additional speakers through zone 2. We do not have surround sound set up.
This configuration worked well for what we wanted until this week when the receiver stopped working. We took it to an electronics shop and they said the main board burnt up and broke and the repair would be more than purchasing new.
As we have been shopping around a salesmen told us that if we utilize the same set-up we would end up burning out a receiver again because we are pulling too much power from zone 2 with the 9 speakers going through the selector. They are steering us towards switching to a SONOS AMP system, which has is benefits with the wireless capability, however, it would be $3000 to set up and will require us to completely separate the 4 speakers in the TV room with the TV and the remaining throughout the house, which is less desirable than what we had.
My question is whether anyone agrees that our set-up is pulling too much power from the zone 2 and we run the risk of continuing to burn out receivers? If so, are there other options to look into which will allow us to keep our prefered set-up? And finally, what are your thoughts on converting to a SONOS set-up?
Thank you!
Seth

 

[markw]

Clarify: Exactly do you have those nine speakers connected? How many on each channel? What's their impedance? What selector do you have?

Offhand, it sounds like the salesman might he a valid point.

 

[KenM10759]

I'd agree in principal with the salesman (and markw.)

What you probably need is a small receiver with pre-outs, and a healthy public address system amplifier. Because that's what you have is a public address system that plays music. Perhaps talk with your doctor about who put the system in his or her office and consult with that person.

Good luck getting it straightned out.

 

[herbu]

I think it depends on what component(s) you have between your receiver and zone-2 speakers.

You can usually set up Zone-2 one of two ways. You can use the amps in your receiver and run directly from your receiver to a Left & Right speaker. Or you can skip the amps in your receiver, and using the Zone-2 outputs send an unamplified signal, ("pre-out"), to a separate amp, then to speakers. Which do you do?

Now the issue of multiple speakers. Any receiver or amplifier is intended for one of its outputs to drive one speaker. So if you're using Zone-2 in multiple rooms, it means you have one signal for multiple speakers. Again, there are 2 ways to handle that. You can have a separate amp for each room. Or you can have a component designed to handle sending the same signal to a variable number of speakers. Which do you do?

If you're not doing each of the above 2 issues correctly, your dealer is right. You'll likely do the same thing to a new receiver that you did to the old one.

 

[TLS Guy]

On the whole receivers make lousy distribution amplifiers.

The key here is impedance. Your speaker selector is key here. Does it keep impedance constant as you switch in and switch out speakers? At a minimum it needs to.

However the best way to do what you want is to buy a higher end receiver with preouts, so that the receiver is not acting as a distribution amp.

So you would have your TV room, and by the way, I would set that up so you are not using ceiling speakers for TV. That is a lousy way to watch TV.

Now you connect a distribution amp to the zone 2 preouts.

The remaining issue, is you have not told us, and probably do not know, how the speakers are wired.

If you do not know how to determine this, then you need to pay someone to find out, or you will be back in the same boat or worse, whatever you do.

There is a good possibility the speaker system may need rewiring.

These systems are not easy to set up properly, and we get posts like yours on a regular basis, especially from owners who have bought homes that have multiple ceiling speakers.

They are usually wired for a particular system, and the previous owner removes the electronics.

So, you need to find out what the speakers are, how they are wired, and find out what type of speaker selector you have. Probably the latter will not be used after the system is revised.

 

[KenM10759]

Given that the OP had the system installed at renovation (or self installed), there should be plenty of info on the VOG (Voice Of God) broadcasting system components and wiring schematic.

Best of luck.

 

[Latent]

Yeah as people above have said need the right kind of amp setup to power that many speakers at once without causing low impedance issues and running an amp beyond its specifications.

Another interesting alternative to sonos or a full on pa amp system is to look at options like Yamaha MusicCast. A unit like the rx-v679 can power two zones with 4 existing speakers and it is all controlled with a smart phone app to stream music and other external tv/blueray sources to multiple zones. Zones can be independently contolled and you can expand it with more than one AVR unit or their other MusicCast devices.

The RX-v679 may also be able to do up to 4-5 speakers in zone 1 and 2 speakers in zone 2 if you use 5 channel stereo sound mode in main zone. This may allow you to get away with just two of these AVR's but if you drive that many speakers from a single unit all going at once you can't go too high in volume!

The reason this solution is quite good is because it is so simple to setup without needing lots of custom devices, amps, speaker selectors etc. Just an AVR connected to speakers and your network.

 

[DigitalDawn]

If you want something that won't break the bank then the DMA-1240 from HTD dot com, seems like a good choice. It has independent volume controls for each speaker into 6 zones.

Keep in mind that I have never used this product, so I have no idea how well it's made or how it sounds.

 

[highfigh]

Yeah as people above have said need the right kind of amp setup to power that many speakers at once without causing low impedance issues and running an amp beyond its specifications.

Another interesting alternative to sonos or a full on pa amp system is to look at options like Yamaha MusicCast. A unit like the rx-v679 can power two zones with 4 existing speakers and it is all controlled with a smart phone app to stream music and other external tv/blueray sources to multiple zones. Zones can be independently contolled and you can expand it with more than one AVR unit or their other MusicCast devices.

The RX-v679 may also be able to do up to 4-5 speakers in zone 1 and 2 speakers in zone 2 if you use 5 channel stereo sound mode in main zone. This may allow you to get away with just two of these AVR's but if you drive that many speakers from a single unit all going at once you can't go too high in volume!

The reason this solution is quite good is because it is so simple to setup without needing lots of custom devices, amps, speaker selectors etc. Just an AVR connected to speakers and your network.

You wrote that you have 9 speakers around the house, aside from the main room- are these single point stereo (dual voice coil and two tweeters) or single channel speakers? If they're single channel, are they being used in a stereo configuration (you would end up with an odd number of speakers connected to one channel) or was the receiver set to Mono, where each receives the same signal? If possible, a diagram of the system would help.

Can you list all of the equipment the new shop is recommending- is that $3000 with installation labor & setup?

Some AV receivers have additional zones of output, but operating these extra zones can be very clumsy and counter-intuitive. If you want to keep it simple and assuming the 9 speakers aren't presenting a load to the amplifier that makes it want to pack up and go home, I would recommend adding a good stereo amp that can handle a low impedance load, has the ability to turn on when the signal signal reaches it or turn on when it receives 12VDC. If you want to use Sonos or Denon's Heos (which many believe is the better sounding of the two), Yamaha's MusiCast, AirPlay or any other system like them, you will need a reliable WiFi network in order for this to work. Even in an area where WiFi signal wouldn't seen to be a problem, Sonos works better when at least one piece is wired and the others are able to communicate with that one (just saw this a few days ago).

Sonos and Heos have a device that acts as the source for this kind of system, without an amplifier or speakers- because you have more speakers than a simple pair or two pairs, I would suggest using one of these with a separate amplifier because whatever you send to the speaker selector is going to be shared by all of the speakers, so 100W in will be less than 10W to each speaker (because some is lost as heat). If the selector can't handle more than 100W, something else may be needed in the event that you want the music loud in those areas. Do you have a volume control for Speakers 1, 2, 3, etc on the selector? If so, you could use a multi-channel amplifier from Niles, Russound, Dayton (house brand for Parts Express and it works well). It can be 40W/channel in stereo, each pair can be set for bridged/mono at 80W, it can turn on with audio signal or 12V, it can send 12V to something that needs it (muting volume controls, another amp, etc) and it has two separate sets of input jacks, which can be set for separate zones or Bus. You can mix and match the stereo/mono designations, so outdoor speakers that require more power can get what they need without sending more to speakers that don't need it.

Assuming the speaker switch can handle the power, I would get the Heos Link or Sonos Connect, fed to the receiver as its own source and also to the input of a separate amp. Each has an Aux input, to accept the signal from your receiver, in the event that you want to listen to something that the Heos or Sonos can't provide, like a ball game, TV audio, turntable, CD/DVD/BD audio, etc.

A Heos Link, new receiver and a separate amplifier could be purchased for about $1000- $1500 if you don't start with the bottom or top of the line. I would be surprised if it takes more than 1-1/2 hours to set this up unless you need to run an ethernet cable to the equipment location.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I would typically handle this setup and call it 'best' by using a multi-channel amplifier to run the separate speakers. You can pick them up on eBay for not a lot of cash and they are designed to independently power each and every speaker you have.

1. Get a new receiver that has two zones. Make sure zone 2 has pre-outs (red/white RCA connections labeled zone 2)

2. Get a 12 channel amplifier from eBay. There are a ton out there...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Niles-SI-1230-12-Channel-Power-Amplifier-/191805806084?hash=item2ca8845604:g:s~8AAOSwX~dWltxU

This should be under $400 and will provide you with up to 6 stereo zones of audio, or 12 individual speakers.

You could use a single external amplifier, but it is more reliable, in the long run, to use a multi-channel amplifier to run the show.

MAKE SURE WHERE YOU PUT THE EQUIPMENT IS WELL VENTED!

If you did have the wiring correct, and the load balanced, then it may have driven the A/V receiver you had pretty hard, but should not have fried it. Far more often I run into situations where the A/V receiver is jammed into a rack with gear all around it and on top of it or with closed doors and you suffocate it. Make sure that isn't the case.