The Difference Between Bi-amping and Bi-wiring

[Alex2507]

... $0 out of pocket ...

That's an interesting way to look at it. You're right, this tweak was free. Plus it made monoblocks available for which I happen to have plans. My last tweak was running YPAO for a month or so. That was free too and the jury is still out on that. I'll re-run it tomorrow and get the manual out to figure out the memory function so I switch back and forth. I think I might have liked it although a slight screw up resulted in me resetting the PEQ.

I wondered about what it would be like to reach over and mercilessly crank the volume as fast and as far as possible. I wondered if the tweeters would pop like fire crackers. How long before the police actually come? Would my crossovers start a fire? Are fire extinguishers expensive?

 

[Alex2507]

Like TLS Guy would say, there is no debate here.

One of my favorites is when he deems someone TSTOG. too stupid to own gear

 

[fmw]

More to the point, a blind test really only determines if that particular individual hears a difference under the circumstances tested. To translate that to mean no one can hear a difference with bi-amping under any circumstance is faulty logic.

In the case of our tests you would have to say that 10 individuals couldn't hear a difference from passive biamplification. Translating that to say some people can hear of difference is illogical. The logical conclusion is that differences are in the hearing bias, not the biamplification.

 

[Alex2507]

In the case of our tests you would have to say that 10 individuals couldn't hear a difference from passive biamplification. Translating that to say some people can hear of difference is illogical. The logical conclusion is that differences are in the hearing bias, not the biamplification.

There's only one way to settle this: a duel to the death.

 

[PENG]

There's only one way to settle this: a duel to the death.

In theory it depends not on who survives a duel but:

- the AVR, prepro, preamp, amp in use.
- the crossover design of the speakers.
- the quality of the speakers overall.
- your discerning capability, not just your hearing but how good are you in discerning what should be audible.
- how prone you are to Placebo effect, we all are, but some more prone than others.

I can go on and on to lengthen the list, but the above are enough to say if you have the gear, try it. Even if you hear the difference only because of Placebo, it will take time to wear off so why not enjoy the better sound when you can. If it sounds the same, leave it on anyway because you know in theory it should sound better, you just can't hear it but your pets may thank you if they can talk.

 

[PENG]

Hell yeah ... j/k.

So here we are ... nothing blew up and the other thing? I'm glad nobody bought my Aragon 2007 off me. I haven't cleared the listening position or done any kind of calibration. I'm hearing it from off to one side but ... well, it sounds good.

The Aragon is now also powering my subs also so 6/7 channels are working.



I used BJC splitters and that red stuff is the kind of RG6 BJC says to use. I guess I may as well get the blow dryer out.



This has a reason to sound different right now and it does ... and I like it. I'll end up getting this dialed in and I'll put the furniture back. You wanna know what I imagine I'm hearing? Before I couldn't tell the difference between a 60 and 80 Hz XO on this system. Now it sounds like there isn't a crossover at all. I better make sure my subs are working.

It's like listening in 3-D. Rock on, RichB. BTW, the way this is wired up it would be pretty easy to switch back to running the tweeters with the mid+woofer channel. I'm pretty sick of playing with wires though.

Aren't those red interconnects for car audio?

 

[fmw]

There's only one way to settle this: a duel to the death.

Or the alternative is to get other people to do some bias controlled testing. I've been trying to get people to do it for years to no avail. It is much easier to criticize. So....pistols at dawn?

 

[Irvrobinson]

In the case of our tests you would have to say that 10 individuals couldn't hear a difference from passive biamplification. Translating that to say some people can hear of difference is illogical. The logical conclusion is that differences are in the hearing bias, not the biamplification.

No, in the context of this discussion your tests were bogus. You tested only a limited set of speakers (one?) with a limited set of amps (again one?), and from that you've drawn a conclusion that passive biamping is always ineffective. In the comparative testing I've taken part in, which admittedly had nothing to do with biamping, no one was able to tell any two amps apart, even when an Audio Research tube amp was in the mix. (The speakers were Dunlavy SC-IVs, which are pretty revealing.) The most damning evidence that the comparative testing was bogus was when the results revealed there was more "perceived" difference between two Threshold amps than between a Threshold amp and the tube amp. (I put perceived in quotes, because none of the results were statistically significant.) There's only one explanation for that result - people were just guessing, which is exactly what happened with every comparative test I've been part of. That last test was in 2002, and I haven't done one since, because IMO they're a waste of time and prove nothing, even with speakers, unless the speakers sound quite different.

(And you're getting all this flak from someone who generally believes passive biamping is a waste of time, but generally doesn't mean always.)

 

[Alex2507]

Aren't those red interconnects for car audio?

It's RG-6 with a 95% copper braid like the one BJC says has the best transfer impedance.

I bought it for the color and it was cheap. I found the article later and was happily surprised. I'm not sure if it has an in wall rating but it's more pliable than RG6 Quadshield and I had just enough of it left to make custom lengths for those four channels.

I think we all understand that fmw did his best to conduct some tests and it would be a mistake to dismiss his findings. I'm curious about which audio society that was for and if they ever published anything. On the other hand just because RichB is crazy doesn't mean he's hearing things. I sat in a roomful of guys while we did an amp swap on some speakers. Lots of people couldn't hear a difference but it was my test material (One Headlight: The Wall Flowers). I could hear the difference, so could the speaker owner although we disagreed about what we were hearing at first. It took awhile but eventually he came around.

I'm ready to shoot somebody already. My Denon 1920 doesn't turn on and it has my favorite piece of music in it. I have to pull the armoir out again. I'm going to use crimp connectors to splice my tweeter channel to the wires going to my upper binding posts so it doesn't look more hack than it has to. Butt connectors ...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In theory it depends not on who survives a duel but:

- the AVR, prepro, preamp, amp in use.
- the crossover design of the speakers.
- the quality of the speakers overall.
- your discerning capability, not just your hearing but how good are you in discerning what should be audible.
- how prone you are to Placebo effect, we all are, but some more prone than others.

I can go on and on to lengthen the list, but the above are enough to say if you have the gear, try it. Even if you hear the difference only because of Placebo, it will take time to wear off so why not enjoy the better sound when you can. If it sounds the same, leave it on anyway because you know in theory it should sound better, you just can't hear it but your pets may thank you if they can talk.

But only if it's free and not cost you $1,000.

Unless you want to spend $1,000 for your pets to hear.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There's only one way to settle this: a duel to the death.

Something tells me this thing will never be settled even after death.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Or the alternative is to get other people to do some bias controlled testing.

Even if someone did these tests to the same exact standards as FDA approved drug studies that expand 50 states, 100,000 people and 10 years, some people would still not believe. Some people will always believe they can hear what none of us can.

So I say, if it's free, passive bi-amp away.

If it's going to cost you a lot of money, don't do it. Just buy a better speaker system or electronics.

 

[RichB]

I recent went to my friend’s birthday dinner which consisted of a custom tasting menu and a selection of wines from his collection.

For each wine, there was documentation including the Robert M. Parker Jr. rating (I don't follow wine). There was one bottle with a 100 RMP rating; 9-10 at the table preferred it to the 90 rated wine.

I am not sure if that makes me more or less discerning, a PIA, or some combination

- Rich

 

[PENG]

Something tells me this thing will never be settled even after death.

Yep, apparently the walking deads could tell the difference too as they were attracted to certain sound.

 

[Steve81]

In the case of our tests you would have to say that 10 individuals couldn't hear a difference from passive biamplification. Translating that to say some people can hear of difference is illogical. The logical conclusion is that differences are in the hearing bias, not the biamplification.

Still not accurate. The only logical conclusion is that those 10 people couldn't hear a difference under the tested conditions. One cannot translate results from a sample size of 10 under a relatively narrow set of test conditions to a whole population and a wide variety of conditions.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yep, apparently the walking deads could tell the difference too as they were attracted to certain sound.

The Walking Deads have golden ears.

 

[PENG]

ADTG has a large house and Salon2. We should do some SBT/DBT in his place. I am in, who else?

 

[Irvrobinson]

ADTG has a large house and Salon2. We should do some SBT/DBT in his place. I am in, who else?

Now all he has is a big house. In a moment of hysteria he sold the Salon2s.

 

[fmw]

Still not accurate. The only logical conclusion is that those 10 people couldn't hear a difference under the tested conditions. One cannot translate results from a sample size of 10 under a relatively narrow set of test conditions to a whole population and a wide variety of conditions.

You have to be joking. This was in answer to someone who said he could hear the difference so everyone can. I understand he hears a difference. He doesn't understand that it is hearing bias. None of the other bias controlled comparisons have found an audible difference either. But I understand the ego involved.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now all he has is a big house. In a moment of hysteria he sold the Salon2s.

Selling my Salon2, B&W 802 Diamond, KEF 201/2, and most of my speakers was one of the best things I did in a long time.

I have ZERO regrets selling my Salon2.

I am 100% happy I sold my Salon2 and bought my five RBH SX-T2/R.