The Difference Between Bi-amping and Bi-wiring

[Irvrobinson]

FYI, Kevin Veocks is head of marketing for Revel, not an electrical engineer (Siegfried Linkwitz), speaker designer (Dennis Murphy) or speaker researcher (Floyd Toole, Sean Olive).

Actually, KV was previously chief engineer at Snell, and he used to be Director of Technology at Revel. I don't know what he does now. So he may not be an economist like Dennis, but he's probably in a similar league as a speaker designer.

 

[RichB]

Yeah, but I found with experimentation and measurement that the bass management strategy for the Salon2s was a brain fart. The Salon2s go so deep with such low distortion that the best strategy is to run them full-range, and then apply PEQs to the sub output to fill dips in the room response. And the fill-in strategy doesn't need four amp channels. I'm still mystified that you heard such an improvement with the Salon2s by bi-amping. If I can dig out the right cables I may try it again, to see if you're hallucinating. (With anyone else I'd just assume it. )

Thanks for the info. My first listening to Salon2's I felt they has a bit less bass than the 1's. The back-firing port likely provided more room-gain. I moved them out a bit and with a good source, they are excellent. The midrange and highs are lovely.

Concerning bi-amping, I know you found no discernible difference in the past and trust that finding. After the JC-1 audition, the most obvious conclusion is that my amp is not the best match for the Salon2's driven one amp per channel. Bi-amped, the A21 is very good. The JC-1 had slightly more gain, so I am not certain that they represent a significant upgrade at my listening levels.

I am a huge fan of ATI amps and still feel AT3000 was the most dynamic amp I heard driving the Salon1's. Those AT6000's are calling to me.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually, KV was previously chief engineer at Snell, and he used to be Director of Technology at Revel. I don't know what he does now. So he may not be an economist like Dennis, but he's probably in a similar league as a speaker designer.

My bad.

Learned something new. So he is a speaker designer.

I've only read on the forums that he was head of marketing for Revel. That seems to me like a "demotion" going from speaker designer and chief engineer to "marketing". I guess he likes it better. Chief of Technology sounds better.

 

[Alex2507]

So far it's a huge difference ... mostly because my system is down for a major wiring overhaul. I'm still learning the ins and outs with these stupid compression connectors. I should have this by the time the snow clears.

 

[RichB]

So far it's a huge difference ... mostly because my system is down for a major wiring overhaul. I'm still learning the ins and outs with these stupid compression connectors. I should have this by the time the snow clears.

Already, lowered the noise floor. Soon, the string plunks will emerge from the inky-black background.

- Rich

 

[Steve81]

As for religion, you do seem to have a lot of religion about convincing people they are hearing things that don't exist. Given how poor humans are at comparing audio sources that differ only subtly, the SBT or DBT argument is, to me, just as bogus as the sighted comparison argument. Both stink.

More to the point, a blind test really only determines if that particular individual hears a difference under the circumstances tested. To translate that to mean no one can hear a difference with bi-amping under any circumstance is faulty logic.

 

[Irvrobinson]

So far it's a huge difference ... mostly because my system is down for a major wiring overhaul. I'm still learning the ins and outs with these stupid compression connectors. I should have this by the time the snow clears.

Don't hurt yourself over bi-wiring.

 

[Alex2507]

Don't hurt yourself over bi-wiring.

As it turns out I'm a lot more bi-curious than I ever imagined ... but we're passive bi-amping over here. I got it all wired up and now it's time to see if anything blows up.

 

[Irvrobinson]

As it turns out I'm a lot more bi-curious than I ever imagined

Is that the sort of thing you really want to share on a forum like this?

 

[Alex2507]

Is that the sort of thing you really want to share on a forum like this?

Hell yeah ... j/k.

So here we are ... nothing blew up and the other thing? I'm glad nobody bought my Aragon 2007 off me. I haven't cleared the listening position or done any kind of calibration. I'm hearing it from off to one side but ... well, it sounds good.

The Aragon is now also powering my subs also so 6/7 channels are working.



I used BJC splitters and that red stuff is the kind of RG6 BJC says to use. I guess I may as well get the blow dryer out.



This has a reason to sound different right now and it does ... and I like it. I'll end up getting this dialed in and I'll put the furniture back. You wanna know what I imagine I'm hearing? Before I couldn't tell the difference between a 60 and 80 Hz XO on this system. Now it sounds like there isn't a crossover at all. I better make sure my subs are working.

It's like listening in 3-D. Rock on, RichB. BTW, the way this is wired up it would be pretty easy to switch back to running the tweeters with the mid+woofer channel. I'm pretty sick of playing with wires though.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Alright, dammit, now I may have to bi-amp too. Now where did I put that spool of 10ga in this house?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Aragon is now also powering my subs...

Ah, I love externally powered subs.

Isn't it so cool that your high-end solid state Aragon amp is powering both your speakers and sub?

 

[Alex2507]

Ah, I love externally powered subs.

Isn't it so cool that your high-end solid state Aragon amp is powering both your speakers and sub?

I'm not sure the Aragon qualifies as high-end but I confess to thinking this is cool. The subs were powered with MA700 monoblock amps so now those are freed up. The smaller monoblocks are more versatile than a humungoid 7 channel amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm not sure the Aragon qualifies as high-end but I confess to thinking this is cool. The subs were powered with MA700 monoblock amps so now those are freed up. The smaller monoblocks are more versatile than a humungoid 7 channel amp.

Oh, yeah, I consider Aragon high-end. If you buy a new Aragon amp today, it could easily be $6K-$12K.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA71N3K39993

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA71N3K40040&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-Receivers-_-9SIA71N3K40040&gclid=CjwKEAiAova1BRDS15OXjcug_FMSJACWNAKZ-wCYiUx2l8OI7uW-9oo6HG2zlWuTvlQl8Ryt8Q0wShoC7xTw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

I think definitely a lot more high-end than most class-D plate amps that come with powered subs.

I power my 5 subs with the ATI AT3005 amp.

 

[Alex2507]

Oh, yeah, I consider Aragon high-end. If you buy a new Aragon amp today, it could easily be $6K-$12K.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA71N3K39993

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA71N3K40040&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-Receivers-_-9SIA71N3K40040&gclid=CjwKEAiAova1BRDS15OXjcug_FMSJACWNAKZ-wCYiUx2l8OI7uW-9oo6HG2zlWuTvlQl8Ryt8Q0wShoC7xTw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

I think definitely a lot more high-end than most class-D plate amps that come with powered subs.

I power my 5 subs with the ATI AT3005 amp.

6 grand for 2 channels? That spells divorce and I'm not even married.

Those are way cool. I had no idea the cost of those new. My Aragon isn't in the same league but it's still overkill. I had used it in a 7.2 H/T but decided that the small perceived improvement in SQ wasn't worth the added wiring and problematic amp placement. However it works well in this set up but here is where my observations although most likely useless are no longer even on topic due to my going from rec'r to passive bi-amping, not having had any interest in bi-wiring.

What's odd is that my channel gains needed no adjustment.

I can't wait to hear back from Irv.

 

[Alex2507]

BTW, this is what's being driven. I'm saving up for matching grill cloth.



Those upper binding posts in the wall plate have a signal from the mid+woofer channel but I'm not likely to ever feel like any further testing.

Irv ... while we're young.

 

[RichB]

.
Irv ... while we're young.

Too late

I am glad it worked out for you. A $0 out of pocket improvement - gotta love that.
No need for any further testing, just sit back and enjoy.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Irv ... while we're young.

I can't do it today. I can't find my other set of BJC balanced Y-cables. Anyway, the system sounds so good without bi-amping I'm not exactly chomping at the bit for an improvement.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can't do it today. I can't find my other set of BJC balanced Y-cables. Anyway, the system sounds so good without bi-amping I'm not exactly chomping at the bit for an improvement.

What? It's not worth that extra 1% improvement? Oh, C'mon man!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Bottom line, if you already have the extra amps and you are curious and it doesn't cost you any more money, then there is no harm in trying passive bi-amp.

But if you have to spend a lot of money (that you could use for something else more important), then passive bi-amp is unequivocally a total waste.

Like TLS Guy would say, there is no debate here.