Integrated Amps/Pre-Amps with good sub management

[bradf]

I am posting this thread at the recommendation of another forum member who chimed in response to a thread I posted on my search for a subwoofer. I just pulled the trigger on a Hsu USL15 MK2 subwoofer to go with my Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2s in a two-channel dedicated music system. The speakers will be run for the present by an Acurus DIA-150 (a 17 year old, but still fine sounding, integrated amp). The rest of the system consists of an Emotive CD player, a Parasound Phono Amp and a Parasound Tuner and a Music Hall turntable. For the present I will have to run speaker cables to the ULS15 MK2 because the Acurus does not have either a pre-out or a sub-out. Consequently, I will not get full optimization of the crossover capabilities because the Sierra-2s will still be operating at their fullest capacity. All in all, I'd rather keep the Acurus, but it doesn't seem possible if I want to properly integrate the subwoofer with the speakers.

I am very interested in thoughts and recommendations of integrated amps or pre-amps (paired with a two-channel power amp) that will permit proper management of the subwoofer with the speakers. Since I am rather a traditionalist in that I am committed to two channel systems for music is concerned, I have been made to understand that this might be a difficult proposition. My budget will likely be in the vicinity of 1,000 - 2,000, although I am a realist if it turns out that my budget is entirely unrealistic. I am not adverse to used equipment, although my limited initial search has focused on new pre-amps by Parasound (the Halo 5) and Emotiva (XPS-1) by virtue of recent reviews.

 

[TLS Guy]

To do what you want the Acurus has to go.

However you can add bass management to any separate preamp to power amp combo. For the sub you have selected you will need an electronic crossover, that has low and high pass filters in at least two channels. Behringer make a cost effective unit. You insert the electronic crossover between the preamp and the power amp.

There have been issues with that Parasound unit, mainly related to volume control noise. It uses a very old fashioned analog potentiometer design. There are not many analog ganged pots made anymore, mainly because there are other and better ways to control volume with modern chip sets.

I have seen enough here not to recommend that unit.

2 channel preamps with bass management are far and few between, and there is no need to limit your search to those.

 

[bradf]

I would welcome any recommendations as to what the other equipment options may be.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would welcome any recommendations as to what the other equipment options may be.

Since you have bought your sub, none.

Your options are a pre with bass management,

An AV receiver.

An electronic crossover between pre and amp.

If you had not bought the sub, there are subs that have a high pass filter. In that case you send the pre output to the sub and connect the high pass out on the sub to the power amp to your speakers.

The sub you chose does not have a dual channel high pass filter.

There are no other ways to skin this cat.

Choose the option you want and research equipment with the facilities you want and within your budget and then ask for more comments.

 

[bradf]

The Emotiva xsp-1 seems to fit the bill since it appears to allow for sub bass management. I could fit it with an emotiva power amp. Even priced new, it would seem to fit my budget. thoughts.

 

[fmw]

I have always managed my subwoofers manually. Most every sub, including yours, has speaker level connections, a volume control and a low pass filter adjustment. It takes about 2 minutes longer than having bass management in your preamp. That's all you need. You can use your current equipment without trouble. I think your choice of subs was a good one.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have always managed my subwoofers manually. Most every sub, including yours, has speaker level connections, a volume control and a low pass filter adjustment. It takes about 2 minutes longer than having bass management in your preamp. That's all you need. You can use your current equipment without trouble. I think your choice of subs was a good one.

His problem is that he does not want to run his mains full range and his sub has speaker level inputs, but no high pass filter. So if he wants to have a high pass filter to the mains then he has to follow one of my suggestions.

 

[TLS Guy]

The Emotiva xsp-1 seems to fit the bill since it appears to allow for sub bass management. I could fit it with an emotiva power amp. Even priced new, it would seem to fit my budget. thoughts.

That fits one of the options on my list. If it is in your budget and what you want: - go for it!

 

[fmw]

His problem is that he does not want to run his mains full range and his sub has speaker level inputs, but no high pass filter. So if he wants to have a high pass filter to the mains then he has to follow one of my suggestions.

Yes. I'm trying to let him understand that there isn't any meaningful advantage to crossing over the sub at the preamp or removing full range from the speakers. In two minutes he can integrate the sub with his equipment with sound every bit as good as the preamp crossover can do. It seems a shame to change good equipment just to get a feature that doesn't really matter. I'm trying to change his mind.

 

[Swerd]

Why can't the OP use the pre-amp out jacks on the back of his integrated amp to connect the input jacks on the sub woofer?

See the Hsu Owner's manual, near the bottom of page 4 where it says "Method C".
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/manual/ULS-15 MK2 Manual.pdf

I guess there is a question if the Acurus integrated sends signals both through it's own amp section and through the pre-amp output jacks at the same time. If the answer is yes, then he is good to go.

 

[TLS Guy]

Let's have one more go at this.

The OP stated he wants a high pass filter, to cut the low frequencies from these speakers.

This is a small ported speaker with one 6" woofer.

Now if possible I agree with fmw that it is best to run speakers full range and just supplement with a sub.

The caveat to this advice is desired spl., program and where are speaker decouples from the box.

If this were a sealed design it would be possible. In addition if the OP is planning to listen at low to moderate low levels then I agree this could work for him.

However this 6" woofer is going to start decoupling from the box progressively below 50 Hz. So if he listens at moderate to loud levels with digital program with significant power below 50 Hz, then the cone excursion will be excessive. This will limit spl and adversely affect sound quality.

I suspect the OP knows his listening patterns and feels he needs low and high pass filters. With small bookshelves and a sub, in most cases high and low pass filters will be optimal.

So in fmw's and Swerd's solution he will only have a low pass filter.

To make the point, these speakers can hack full range at power without distress. I only use the low pass of the electronic crossover to the subs.

It is my contention that unless the OP listens at levels a lot lower than I do, then given his choice of speakers, he does need high and low pass filters. A low pass only is not optimal in this situation.

Remember bass management off loads receivers and amps hardly at all, but it really off loads woofers. That is the point.

 

[fmw]

Let's have one more go at this.

The OP stated he wants a high pass filter, to cut the low frequencies from these speakers.

This is a small ported speaker with one 6" woofer.

Now if possible I agree with fmw that it is best to run speakers full range and just supplement with a sub.

The caveat to this advice is desired spl., program and where are speaker decouples from the box.

If this were a sealed design it would be possible. In addition if the OP is planning to listen at low to moderate low levels then I agree this could work for him.

However this 6" woofer is going to start decoupling from the box progressively below 50 Hz. So if he listens at moderate to loud levels with digital program with significant power below 50 Hz, then the cone excursion will be excessive. This will limit spl and adversely affect sound quality.

I suspect the OP knows his listening patterns and feels he needs low and high pass filters. With small bookshelves and a sub, in most cases high and low pass filters will be optimal.

So in fmw's and Swerd's solution he will only have a low pass filter.

To make the point, these speakers can hack full range at power without distress. I only use the low pass of the electronic crossover to the subs.

It is my contention that unless the OP listens at levels a lot lower than I do, then given his choice of speakers, he does need high and low pass filters. A low pass only is not optimal in this situation.

Remember bass management off loads receivers and amps hardly at all, but it really off loads woofers. That is the point.

Why do you think things would be different with no subwoofer? How would adding a subwoofer to support the bass do anything negative to the sound or performance of the system? What would you do if there were no subwoofer?

 

[TLS Guy]

Why do you think things would be different with no subwoofer? How would adding a subwoofer to support the bass do anything negative to the sound or performance of the system? What would you do if there were no subwoofer?

It all comes down to his desired spl from those speakers. Those speakers without sub, or with sub with no high pass filter, are going to be driver displacement limited unless he listens to program with little bass content.

Those speakers with a sub and driven though a high pass filter will achieve a higher spl. and on a lot of program play cleaner.

You can look at it this way. An electronic crossover properly implemented converts those small two way speakers into a large three way. That is the effect, and a lot better than a three way speaker with a low frequency passive crossover.

So implementing as you suggest with only a low pass filter, will not do anything negative, but will not improve the situation as much as a high and low pass filter would.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[fmw]

It answers my question but I don't think what you say is important. All you are saying you don't think his speakers will play loud enough and you think adding a subwoofer with a high pass filter will allow them to play loud enough. I would say that is fairly questionable. I'm willing to bet I could integrate his sub manually and play things loud enough that he would want it turned down.

 

[TLS Guy]

It answers my question but I don't think what you say is important. All you are saying you don't think his speakers will play loud enough and you think adding a subwoofer with a high pass filter will allow them to play loud enough. I would say that is fairly questionable. I'm willing to bet I could integrate his sub manually and play things loud enough that he would want it turned down.

The thing is that neither of us know how loud he wants it. All I can say is that the speakers will play louder and cleaner with high and low pass filters.

I think you do tend to not get the peaks a lot of us do.

I know a set of speakers with a 6" mid bass would not play loud enough for me, with or without a sub. They would not come close to concert hall levels even in a fairly small room.

The other issue, is that when speakers play to the point where there is distortion and other limiting issues they sound loud and the perception for most people is that they want to turn it down. Whereas at the same level another system that was clean would not sound loud at all. The urge to turn down does not correlate solely with spl by any means.

It was not until I put this rig together, that I could reproduce the full force of the concert hall and opera house without reaching the limits of a system.

Just yesterday I watched live from the Philharmonie Berlin. It was Gustavo Dudamel with the Simon Bolivar Orchestra. This is a huge orchestra with banks of double basses, cellos, violins, horns, woodwinds and trombones, to say nothing of a huge percussion section.

The concert was all Stravinsky, except the second encore. It was the most exciting performance of the Rite of Spring I have ever heard. In fact it was one of the most exciting concerts I have ever heard in the concert Hall or otherwise. The picture and sound were spectacular. It had the softest lows and the loudest fortes.

To reproduce that requires huge speakers and lots of amp power. By lots of power I mean in the thousands of watts and not hundreds. Everything held together and stayed clean.

When it gets edited in a day or two, that is a concert well worth going to the Berlin Philharmonic site and purchasing a digital ticket for that concert. The sound and video engineers did a spectacular job capturing that enormous orchestra.

Not going to happen with small bookshelves and a couple of hundred watts.

It was not until I got to well over the thousand watt region that I had a system that was always relaxed and never stressed no matter what was thrown at it.

A lot of program requires a lot more power than you think for the peaks. And funnily enough it is classical music that requires the greatest reserve of power, and the highest signal to noise, as it contains both the softest and loudest spls. The paradox is that the average power is far lower than for rock and other genre of music on the pop world.

I have seen your posts before and I think you seriously under estimate the peak power requirements of a lot of music. I don't mean brief peaks either. Most of these peaks go on long enough to run most amps and receivers out of gas.

 

[PENG]

Remember bass management off loads receivers and amps hardly at all, but it really off loads woofers. That is the point.

It could, and does off load receivers. I know it for fact because I have taken measurements, depending on the program material, crossover settings and EQ etc., it could range from a few percent to 20% or even more.

I do agree with your point that it mainly off load woofers, relatively and practically speaking. I ordered my last sub with custom high pass. It costed me less than external crossovers such as the dBX http://dbxpro.com/en/products/223s and likely was made to higher audio standard using high quality Op amps and other components.

 

[fmw]

The thing is that neither of us know how loud he wants it. All I can say is that the speakers will play louder and cleaner with high and low pass filters.

I think you do tend to not get the peaks a lot of us do.

I know a set of speakers with a 6" mid bass would not play loud enough for me, with or without a sub. They would not come close to concert hall levels even in a fairly small room.

The other issue, is that when speakers play to the point where there is distortion and other limiting issues they sound loud and the perception for most people is that they want to turn it down. Whereas at the same level another system that was clean would not sound loud at all. The urge to turn down does not correlate solely with spl by any means.

It was not until I put this rig together, that I could reproduce the full force of the concert hall and opera house without reaching the limits of a system.

Just yesterday I watched live from the Philharmonie Berlin. It was Gustavo Dudamel with the Simon Bolivar Orchestra. This is a huge orchestra with banks of double basses, cellos, violins, horns, woodwinds and trombones, to say nothing of a huge percussion section.

The concert was all Stravinsky, except the second encore. It was the most exciting performance of the Rite of Spring I have ever heard. In fact it was one of the most exciting concerts I have ever heard in the concert Hall or otherwise. The picture and sound were spectacular. It had the softest lows and the loudest fortes.

To reproduce that requires huge speakers and lots of amp power. By lots of power I mean in the thousands of watts and not hundreds. Everything held together and stayed clean.

When it gets edited in a day or two, that is a concert well worth going to the Berlin Philharmonic site and purchasing a digital ticket for that concert. The sound and video engineers did a spectacular job capturing that enormous orchestra.

Not going to happen with small bookshelves and a couple of hundred watts.

It was not until I got to well over the thousand watt region that I had a system that was always relaxed and never stressed no matter what was thrown at it.

A lot of program requires a lot more power than you think for the peaks. And funnily enough it is classical music that requires the greatest reserve of power, and the highest signal to noise, as it contains both the softest and loudest spls. The paradox is that the average power is far lower than for rock and other genre of music on the pop world.

I have seen your posts before and I think you seriously under estimate the peak power requirements of a lot of music. I don't mean brief peaks either. Most of these peaks go on long enough to run most amps and receivers out of gas.

My measurements were made using a loud explosion scene in a movie. I haven't heard music any louder. So you want thousands of watts, have thousands of watts. I have no problem with how you configure your audio. My comments are based on measurements of my power dissipation. I don't use either hundreds or thousands of watts. I dissipate tens of watts. You are suggesting that some program material requires more than I think. I actually know how much it requires. Why not measure yours so you will know?

 

[bradf]

Forgive me for not following the discussion, but I've been digging out from two feet of snow. My understanding of your discussion seems to suggest that there is a split of opinion as to whether there is a meaningful effect on the sound from the Sierra-2s from connecting the sub to its high level inputs and setting the appropriate cross-over and phase at the sub and then co-wiring my amp to the Sierra-2s. You are correct that the Acurus does not have a pre-out, although I'm not sure that without management of the crossover at the pre-stage it would make any difference. I would still be running the same bass signal through the speakers as through the sub up to the set crossover. I have been made to understand that the speakers would run cleaner and better if that crossover was "pre-" managed so that the speakers don't have to duplicate the bass from the sub. As a practical matter, that makes sense to me in the same way that too many cooks can spoil the broth (terrible audio analogy). It is for that reason that I am considering the only two pre-amps that I can find that allow for this: the Parasound P5 and the Emotiva XSP-1 Gen 2. I also wonder whether a new pre and power amp (or a new pre and used power amp) might not sound better than my Acurus in either event. My one concern with any change (while staying in certain budget parameters) is that I have repeatedly read that Emotiva equipment can be very bright, especially with the Sierra-2s. I also wonder whether the Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2 isn't power overload for a music-only system. I have separated wondered having done some research whether the Parasound preamp might soften the brightness. I have also wondered whether power amps either Vincent Audio (the SP 31 hybrid), Odyessy (the Khartego), the Parasound A23, or something else would drive my speakers as well or better than the Acurus. If the consensus is that there is no significant difference continuing to use the Acurus, then I can buy some time and look for the best fit. I don't have the luxury of trying one type after another, so I really am reliant upon the views of others -- of course I can always return something that just doesn't work out. I am trying to find the best solution to get the best of the speakers (and sub) that I have that is accurate and musical without being fatiguing. My listening habits are extremely varied from acoustic jazz, rock, folk, blues, classical, etc. (no heavy metal ... not putting it down, just stating) I would ideally like to spend between 1500 and 2000 to get better electronics for my set-up. I also want to make sure that the speakers can be driven at least as well as with the Acurus. I look forward to any assistance you might be able to offer. thanks for the time you've spent considering the issue already.

 

[markw]

If you can suffer with a built in tuner then this should be right up your alley.

https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

 

[highfigh]

Forgive me for not following the discussion, but I've been digging out from two feet of snow. My understanding of your discussion seems to suggest that there is a split of opinion as to whether there is a meaningful effect on the sound from the Sierra-2s from connecting the sub to its high level inputs and setting the appropriate cross-over and phase at the sub and then co-wiring my amp to the Sierra-2s. You are correct that the Acurus does not have a pre-out, although I'm not sure that without management of the crossover at the pre-stage it would make any difference. I would still be running the same bass signal through the speakers as through the sub up to the set crossover. I have been made to understand that the speakers would run cleaner and better if that crossover was "pre-" managed so that the speakers don't have to duplicate the bass from the sub. As a practical matter, that makes sense to me in the same way that too many cooks can spoil the broth (terrible audio analogy). It is for that reason that I am considering the only two pre-amps that I can find that allow for this: the Parasound P5 and the Emotiva XSP-1 Gen 2. I also wonder whether a new pre and power amp (or a new pre and used power amp) might not sound better than my Acurus in either event. My one concern with any change (while staying in certain budget parameters) is that I have repeatedly read that Emotiva equipment can be very bright, especially with the Sierra-2s. I also wonder whether the Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2 isn't power overload for a music-only system. I have separated wondered having done some research whether the Parasound preamp might soften the brightness. I have also wondered whether power amps either Vincent Audio (the SP 31 hybrid), Odyessy (the Khartego), the Parasound A23, or something else would drive my speakers as well or better than the Acurus. If the consensus is that there is no significant difference continuing to use the Acurus, then I can buy some time and look for the best fit. I don't have the luxury of trying one type after another, so I really am reliant upon the views of others -- of course I can always return something that just doesn't work out.

I haven't worked with the Hsu subs, so I don't know if the speaker level input comes with a crossover, or just passes the signal to the speakers but it may high pass the signal. If so, you should be able to get a decent sound from the system by working with the phase and Q controls but having true HP/LP crossover is preferable.

Having said that, the Parasound doesn't allow more than frequency and level control for either pass band and I assume the Emotiva operates in a similar way. I own a Parasound P5 and so far, I haven't used the sub or HP outputs but I will say that I'm very happy with the sound. Mine does have the noisy volume control and I have found that I can make it stop by rotating the control manually a few times. I'm a Parasound dealer and while I would want to be absolutely certain that the problem has been dealt with and eliminated before I sell another of this model, I don't plan to send it in for repair until I know I won't be using it while it's gone because it doesn't bother me enough. I have had other equipment with dirty controls that caused far worse problems and the sound doesn't cut out, so I just use it and enjoy the sound.

I'm using the Parasound A23 and with most sources, my level control is often set around 9:00 to reach the level I want and occasionally, 10:00. A couple of times, I raised it to about 11:00 but that was only to find out how it and my speakers would perform- it's definitely higher SPL than I would use for any length of time.

Because I need to be very familiar with AVRs as part of my business, I was using one before I signed on with Parasound and the difference between the Parasound and what I had isn't subtle. The Parasound is much better, IMO- the AVR doesn't have main pre-out, so it's not easy to do a simple A:B comparison using only the power amp but, since it's rated for higher output at the same impedance and rated much higher into a lower impedance load, I would guess that it's one of the examples where the power amps sound different. I wouldn't say it's night and day unless I take the time to test them without the preamp but I think most of the difference I'm hearing is from the P5.

I haven't been curious enough to do the comparison, but I will, soon enough.

If the speakers present a difficult load, I doubt the Parasound will have a problem and I think you would like the sound- it doesn't strike me as bright and another dealer commented that he thinks the Parasound amps sound neutral to a bit warm- FWIW, some of their other brands are Audio Research, Cambridge Parasound and for speakers, Linn, KEF, Vandersteen and Sonus Faber.