House Republicans ready Volkswagen bailout vote

[highfigh]

So far so good. The check engine light came on and the R2D2 (OBD II Reader) says insufficient air flow so the EGR may need replaced (figures it's an emissions piece).

What about the air cleaner? That would restrict air flow more than the EGR, which might trigger a code on the exhaust side since a faulty EGR will often make it run lean.

 

[jinjuku]

What about the air cleaner? That would restrict air flow more than the EGR, which might trigger a code on the exhaust side since a faulty EGR will often make it run lean.

If you mean just replacing the air filter that was done with it's last service.

I have to check out my dealership and see what kind of kiss-ass promotions they are running.

VW sent $500 Visa card and $500 dealer gift card.

 

[bonejob]

The above article was written by David Dayen, a former blogger who writes for various publications including that rag, The Daily Kos. He is not a lawyer, nor a journalist, and is decidedly progressive when framing his words. In my mind, loss of value is an injury and not especially difficult to demonstrate so I don't see where this is a bailout of VW. They'll be hit hard and rightfully so around the world through class actions, small claims, and governmental punitive actions.

I think the whole thing is much ado about not a hell of a lot. Yes, VW played fast and loose with our strict and arbitrary emissions regulations.

Contrast that with General Motors, who put out millions of cars and trucks with faulty ignition switches, and KNEW about it and let it go, rather than spend the money on a redesign and recall of existing vehicles in the field. As a result, hundreds have been seriously hurt or killed.

GM has essentally admitted that their lawyers and bean counters got together and decided that settling the wrongful death claims out of court was cheaper than a recall and redesign of the faulty ignition switch.

VW made and still makes a solid, well-made car that is affordable and enjoyable to drive - and SAFE - just not as clean as it was claimed to be.

GM does cost-benefit analysis calculating the value of our lives versus the cost of fixing unsafe vehicles - and guess what - we get the short straw.

The only good thing about this whole thing is that I'll get to take somebody's VW TDI off their hands for a song!

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[TheWarrior]

If you mean just replacing the air filter that was done with it's last service.

I have to check out my dealership and see what kind of kiss-ass promotions they are running.

VW sent $500 Visa card and $500 dealer gift card.

Remind me, DPF or Urea?

 

[jinjuku]

Remind me, DPF or Urea?

DPF and I have never seen the DPF regen light come on even ONCE in the 4+ years we've had the Jetta.

I don't think VW can get an effective fix for the first gen 2.0L diesels. EPA and CARB just shot down VW's most recent proposal.

 

[jinjuku]

I think the whole thing is much ado about not a hell of a lot. Yes, VW played fast and loose with our strict and arbitrary emissions regulations.

Contrast that with General Motors,

GM can have it's own thread, the Government and Regulators can worry about GM. I see the point but it doesn't have any blunting effect on what VW has done.

Both companies can be taken to task. One doesn't excuse the other.

 

[bonejob]

GM can have it's own thread, the Government and Regulators can worry about GM. I see the point but it doesn't have any blunting effect on what VW has done.

Both companies can be taken to task. One doesn't excuse the other.

I think you missed the point.

VW cheated emissions regulations - illegal, but hardly worth crucifixion. The degree of public outrage is out of proportion with the offense. No one has been in an accident or died because their TDI emits too much pollution.

On the other hand...

GM made conscious decisions that KILLED PEOPLE! Decisions THEY KNEW would likely kill people. Decisions that should not only cost them money, but should send some people TO PRISON. Yet the uproar over that has been strangely muted.

My point is that the two are not morally equivalent. VW's conduct was inexcusable. GM's was outright heinous. But the public and the media are MADDER over VW's conduct. WTF?

The only reason for that that makes any sense to me is that people are not surprised any more when GM behaves badly, but have come to expect better from VW. The sense of betrayal is greater somehow.

It's like this...

Syrian president Bashar Assad barrel-bombs his own capital city? <snooze>

U.S. vice president Joseph Biden accidentally drops an f-bomb into a live microphone? <Now, that's NEWS!>

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[Chu Gai]

There are other reasons why there is a disproportionate reaction between GM and VW. While there are hundreds of thousands or is it millions of cars with the problematic ignition switch, percentage wise, the amount of fatalities is quite small. Also, they haven't happened all at once but over a period of time. Also, not every incidence receives media coverage. With VW, suddenly everyone that owns one not only realizes they've been stinking up the air but that their cars have dropped rather precipitously in value. That and Germany has done such a wonderful job touting German engineering (Shamwow), quality, uncompromising performance and the world has bought into it. So we feel not just betrayed but suckered.

 

[jinjuku]

I think you missed the point.

VW cheated emissions regulations - illegal, but hardly worth crucifixion. The degree of public outrage is out of proportion with the offense. No one has been in an accident or died because their TDI emits too much pollution.

On the other hand...

GM made conscious decisions that KILLED PEOPLE! Decisions THEY KNEW would likely kill people. Decisions that should not only cost them money, but should send some people TO PRISON. Yet the uproar over that has been strangely muted.

My point is that the two are not morally equivalent. VW's conduct was inexcusable. GM's was outright heinous. But the public and the media are MADDER over VW's conduct. WTF?

The only reason for that that makes any sense to me is that people are not surprised any more when GM behaves badly, but have come to expect better from VW. The sense of betrayal is greater somehow.

It's like this...

Syrian president Bashar Assad barrel-bombs his own capital city? <snooze>

U.S. vice president Joseph Biden accidentally drops an f-bomb into a live microphone? <Now, that's NEWS!>

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This is a thread about VW. It's not about Biden, Assad, GM, or any other entity.

If you have moral outrage about any of the other items there is a mechanism in place for that and you can start a thread about it.

I think the GM/Assad items are deeply troubling. I have the ability to provide my full attention on more than one news item. As a matter of fact I've been donating to www.moas.eu and encourage others to find a charity.

 

[TheWarrior]

DPF and I have never seen the DPF regen light come on even ONCE in the 4+ years we've had the Jetta.

I don't think VW can get an effective fix for the first gen 2.0L diesels. EPA and CARB just shot down VW's most recent proposal.

Yeah mine is an '09 and that is what I have heard as well. The 'fix' is a severe performance degradation. Period.

 

[bonejob]

This is a thread about VW. It's not about Biden, Assad, GM, or any other entity.

If you have moral outrage about any of the other items there is a mechanism in place for that and you can start a thread about it.

I think the GM/Assad items are deeply troubling. I have the ability to provide my full attention on more than one news item. As a matter of fact I've been donating to www.moas.eu and encourage others to find a charity.

(WARNING! I'm about to be something of a smart ass here, because I'm getting frustrated at my apparent inability to communicate - not something I'm accustomed to...)

This IS about VW!

GM, Biden and Assad were merely set pieces in analogies meant to illustrate the weird moral disconnect of people being outraged over the trivial while ignoring the important.

In other words, you can't isolate VW out of context. My whole point from the beginning has been that within the greater scheme, this VW flap over emissions is trivial.

VW's diesels remain clean and efficient power plants. Cleaner in every way than past diesels, cleaner in most ways than gasoline and a lower carbon load too. Cheating emissions systems or not, VW diesels are good cars, and better overall for the environment than gasoline.

(DISCLAIMER: I do not work, nor have I ever worked, for Volkswagen AG or any of their agents, foreign or domestic. Nor have I ever held stock or any other interest in Volkswagen AG or any of their agents, foreign or domestic. Nor have any of my relatives, pets, etc.)

As for people who can work themselves into such a lather over VW's comparatively minor misdeeds (as corporate misdeeds go these days)....

(Just so you know, I am aware this thread is not about lather. Lather, for my purposes, is merely a metaphor here.)

I have to think the functionality of their moral compass, their sense of proportionality and their powers of reason or all three are exposed for debate. (In another thread, of course.)



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[jinjuku]

(WARNING! I'm about to be something of a smart ass here, because I'm getting frustrated at my apparent inability to communicate - not something I'm accustomed to...)

This IS about VW!

GM, Biden and Assad were merely set pieces in analogies meant to illustrate the weird moral disconnect of people being outraged over the trivial while ignoring the important.

^^ This is your problem: You are assuming way too much.

I have enough moral outrage about Syria that I'm routinely donating to the charity that I mentioned and encouraged others to do also.

I'm certainly not donating to any charity for VW owners and I own one of the effected vehicles!

 

[bonejob]

^^ This is your problem: You are assuming way too much.

I have enough moral outrage about Syria that I'm routinely donating to the charity that I mentioned and encouraged others to do also.

I'm certainly not donating to any charity for VW owners and I own one of the effected vehicles!

We're not talking about Syria, remember? I only mentioned it as part of an analogy.

And I'm not sure what you think I'm assuming.

I just think people are too upset over this.

There has been an underground cottage industry for years driven by car owners who want to remove or otherwise bypass emissions controls in the pursuit of better performance and fuel economy.

Most of these attempts, devices, techniques don't work, but that hasn't stopped people from trying or enterprising folks from taking money from those who keep trying.

There has even been software sold for the purpose of doing precisely what Volkswagen did - bypassing emissions controls in ordinary driving but re-activating them in order to pass the state emissions inspections mandated in many jurisdictions.

To get upset at Volkswagen for doing what many owners do - or would like to do - is hypocritical in my view.

You have a TDI? You really have two practical options.

Drive your car. Enjoy your car. Unlike millions of GM vehicles, it is unlikely to kill you. Keep it until it's paid for and you're no longer upside down on it and then sell it. By then no one will remember or care about this current brouhaha.

OR....

Take your losses. Sell it now. Sell it really cheap. TO ME. Or someone else who doesn't give a rip about this scandal.

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[TheWarrior]

We're not talking about Syria, remember? I only mentioned it as part of an analogy.

And I'm not sure what you think I'm assuming.

I just think people are too upset over this.

There has been an underground cottage industry for years driven by car owners who want to remove or otherwise bypass emissions controls in the pursuit of better performance and fuel economy.

Most of these attempts, devices, techniques don't work, but that hasn't stopped people from trying or enterprising folks from taking money from those who keep trying.

There has even been software sold for the purpose of doing precisely what Volkswagen did - bypassing emissions controls in ordinary driving but re-activating them in order to pass the state emissions inspections mandated in many jurisdictions.

To get upset at Volkswagen for doing what many owners do - or would like to do - is hypocritical in my view.

You have a TDI? You really have two practical options.

Drive your car. Enjoy your car. Unlike millions of GM vehicles, it is unlikely to kill you. Keep it until it's paid for and you're no longer upside down on it and then sell it. By then no one will remember or care about this current brouhaha.

OR....

Take your losses. Sell it now. Sell it really cheap. TO ME. Or someone else who doesn't give a rip about this scandal.

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I paid $15k cash for my car and have brought that total well over $20k in 3 years due to the exorbitantly high price of parts to maintain it. While VW made billions on a lie. How dare you come out of lurking, only to give us disparaging words and talk like a fool!

Yes I'm pissed and yes I want the car I paid for from the people who made billions on lying to me about it. And I want that for every one of the 7 million or so owners. And if ya do the math, they can certainly provide that!

 

[jinjuku]

We're not talking about Syria, remember? I only mentioned it as part of an analogy.

And I'm not sure what you think I'm assuming.

I just think people are too upset over this.

To get upset at Volkswagen for doing what many owners do - or would like to do - is hypocritical in my view.

You are assuming what my level of discomfiture is with VW with GM, Syria, whatever other problems in the world as some sort of measuring stick.

I'm here to tell you people can be understandably upset, to various degree's about various things, unsurprisingly, all at the same time.

I don't think I'm too upset over this. I simply would like a buy back at the FMV as of 06/2015 and 20% of the MSRP for the hassle. That's not unreasonable, it's not over reacting.

The EPA want the cars either off the road or compliant. It's as simple as that. Owners want the car they paid for. Which if there is a retrofit for the 1st Gen 189's owners will not have.

My gut feeling is the the 1st Gen's can't reasonably be brought into compliance here in the U.S. I'm certainly not allowing a new Cat, DPF, Urea Injection, Software patches all hacked onto my car. VW can purchase it back, perform those operations, and then place it back on the market and let the market dictate how much and how quickly those vehicles will sell.

Just like VW misrepresented the car in the first place and let the market determine how much and how quickly those vehicles would sell.

IMO (just as you have an opinion) is not an out of balance reaction. It's not over the top, it's not incongruous with the facts at hand. No one is foaming at the mouth.

Both Toyota (frame rust) and Chrysler (suspension and steering issues) have been forced to purchase back vehicles. So there is precedence.

As to chipping, DPF delete, rolling coal what have you. I have a news flash for ya: As far as I'm aware any car can be chipped and otherwise modded. Not sure why the TDi's are some sort of singularity in this regard according to how your post/s read.

 

[bonejob]

I paid $15k cash for my car and have brought that total well over $20k in 3 years due to the exorbitantly high price of parts to maintain it. While VW made billions on a lie. How dare you come out of lurking, only to give us disparaging words and talk like a fool!

Yes I'm pissed and yes I want the car I paid for from the people who made billions on lying to me about it. And I want that for every one of the 7 million or so owners. And if ya do the math, they can certainly provide that!

15K cash? I doubt VERY much you bought it new. And you think Volkswagen should buy it back from you? Good luck with that.

I'll say to you what I said to someone else here...

There has been a cottage industry active for years driven by people trying to remove or circumvent emissions controls in the pursuit of better performance and fuel economy. Most of this doesn't work, but people keep spending their money trying.

There is even software available that does precisely what Volkswagen has done - bypass emissions controls in ordinary driving but re-activate them for the emissions inspections mandated in many jurisdictions.

To demonize Volkswagen for doing what many owners have done - or would like to do - on their own is hypocritical in my view.

You think Volkswagen parts prices are exorbitant? Try Toyota. I've owned both! All car parts are expensive. Boo Hoo! Checked out the price of a new turbocharger? Welcome to 2016.

Volkswagen made money off a lie? So what? So they've joined the club. As corporate misdeeds go these days, this is small stuff.

Perspective, proportion and context are important. Unlike GM and Ford, Volkswagen hasn't sold you a car that might kill you from a defective ignition lock or a gas tank that could explode.

You talk like you think you're the first person to ever be disappointed in your car and the company who built it.

Stop whining. Drive it and enjoy it. Or cut your losses and sell it. Either way, get a grip...



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[bonejob]

You are assuming what my level of discomfiture is with VW with GM, Syria, whatever other problems in the world as some sort of measuring stick.

I'm here to tell you people can be understandably upset, to various degree's about various things, unsurprisingly, all at the same time.

I don't think I'm too upset over this. I simply would like a buy back at the FMV as of 06/2015 and 20% of the MSRP for the hassle. That's not unreasonable, it's not over reacting.

The EPA want the cars either off the road or compliant. It's as simple as that. Owners want the car they paid for. Which if there is a retrofit for the 1st Gen 189's owners will not have.

My gut feeling is the the 1st Gen's can't reasonably be brought into compliance here in the U.S. I'm certainly not allowing a new Cat, DPF, Urea Injection, Software patches all hacked onto my car. VW can purchase it back, perform those operations, and then place it back on the market and let the market dictate how much and how quickly those vehicles will sell.

Just like VW misrepresented the car in the first place and let the market determine how much and how quickly those vehicles would sell.

IMO (just as you have an opinion) is not an out of balance reaction. It's not over the top, it's not incongruous with the facts at hand. No one is foaming at the mouth.

Both Toyota (frame rust) and Chrysler (suspension and steering issues) have been forced to purchase back vehicles. So there is precedence.

As to chipping, DPF delete, rolling coal what have you. I have a news flash for ya: As far as I'm aware any car can be chipped and otherwise modded. Not sure why the TDi's are some sort of singularity in this regard according to how your post/s read.

I am aware any car can be chipped. You infer what I never implied. I never said TDI's were some kind of "singularity" in this regard. But we are talking about TDI's here, are we not?

And I stand by what I've said. I think peoples' reaction IS over the top.

If you can get a buy-back, congratulations. I don't think your are "entitled" to it though.

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[jinjuku]

15K cash? I doubt VERY much you bought it new. And you think Volkswagen should buy it back from you? Good luck with that.

I don't recall him saying in what condition he purchased the car. You are reading things no one is typing! Please for the love of god stop it

I'll say to you what I said to someone else here...

There has been a cottage industry active for years driven by people trying to remove or circumvent emissions controls in the pursuit of better performance and fuel economy. Most of this doesn't work, but people keep spending their money trying.

There is even software available that does precisely what Volkswagen has done - bypass emissions controls in ordinary driving but re-activate them for the emissions inspections mandated in many jurisdictions.

AND IT'S POTENTIALLY JUST AS ILLEGAL! Jesus wept.

To demonize Volkswagen for doing what many owners have done - or would like to do - on their own is hypocritical in my view.

I think if you are rolling coal your are an ahole also. Again you are making either one of two assumptions:

1. I or other VW owners in this thread chipped our vehicles. Therefore a hypocrite.
2. I or other VW owners in this thread said chipping your vehicle to defeat emissions is ok.

Neither has been the case and please redact your statements of calling forum members hypocrites if you can't comb back through the statements to support your argument that I or others made such a statement.

 

[jinjuku]

If you can get a buy-back, congratulations. I don't think your are "entitled" to it though.

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Where the frak did I say I was entitled to it?! What I said is that there is precedence from both Toyota and Chrysler for buybacks.

Your reading comprehension sucks.

 

[bonejob]

I don't recall him saying in what condition he purchased the car. You are reading things no one is typing! Please for the love of god stop it

It's easy to infer. It's been years since anyone has gotten a new VW TDI off the lot for anything near that money. He didn't explicitly say it, but he didn't have to.

AND IT'S POTENTIALLY JUST AS ILLEGAL! Jesus wept.

So what? Ordinary people do illegal things every day, from exceeding the speed limit to cheating on their taxes to aiming lasers at passing aircraft.

I think if you are rolling coal your are an ahole also. Again you are making either one of two assumptions:

1. I or other VW owners in this thread chipped our vehicles. Therefore a hypocrite.
2. I or other VW owners in this thread said chipping your vehicle to defeat emissions is ok.

Neither has been the case and please redact your statements of calling forum members hypocrites if you can't comb back through the statements to support your argument that I or others made such a statement.

You too are making an assumption, that by pointing out hypocrisy, I am referring to you and others here personally. I am NOT!

Nor did I ever say that you or anyone here chipped their vehicles, nor did I say anyone here approved of the practice.

But I did say that many people do it with little public outcry.

From this lack of public outcry and the apparent lack of will in the law enforcement community to vigorously enforce the laws, that seems to show that society as a whole really doesn't object to these practices very much.

But it clearly objects most vigorously when Volkswagen essentially does the same thing.

(This is clearly for another discussion, but I have always thought the diesel emissions standards adopted back in 2006 were poorly thought out, arbitrary and unduly onerous. That could at least partially explain why a previously ethical company [as ethical as auto companies get anyway] chose to go rogue.)

That society as a whole is apparently holding a corporation to a higher standard than it holds for itself, THAT is hypocritical.

If people want to take offense as personal attacks what was intended (and stated) as social criticism, I can't help that.

Will I redact? No. Will I at least apologize? No.

So we're leaving this each in agreement that the other is a moron.



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