Choosing an AVR / amp for Monitor Audio Gold speakers

[Yorkie]

I'm new to this level of kit.... I have Monitor Audio Gold 200 floorstanders, and am driving them with a Marantz SR6009 AVR. But the beautiful Golds are not coming to life, and I suspect the SR6009 is not a good match, especially in my big, acoustically soft lounge.

Normal advice seems to be to spend twice the AVR cost on speakers: what with one thing and another, I ended up at four times the AVR cost on speakers, so it's not hard to see the mismatch.

So, is the AVR simply not up to the job, ie, pre-amp, DAC and power amp all problematic, or is it likely that the problem is just power?

If it's all no good, which AVR to choose, or even which stereo amp (and DAC, as I stream lossless FLAC) to choose, as in the end, it's music, and just front speakers I want.

If it's just power I need to add, which power amp would add magic to the AVR's pre-outs?

 

[PENG]

I'm new to this level of kit.... I have Monitor Audio Gold 200 floorstanders, and am driving them with a Marantz SR6009 AVR. But the beautiful Golds are not coming to life, and I suspect the SR6009 is not a good match, especially in my big, acoustically soft lounge.

Normal advice seems to be to spend twice the AVR cost on speakers: what with one thing and another, I ended up at four times the AVR cost on speakers, so it's not hard to see the mismatch.

So, is the AVR simply not up to the job, ie, pre-amp, DAC and power amp all problematic, or is it likely that the problem is just power?

If it's all no good, which AVR to choose, or even which stereo amp (and DAC, as I stream lossless FLAC) to choose, as in the end, it's music, and just front speakers I want.

If it's just power I need to add, which power amp would add magic to the AVR's pre-outs?

Whether the advice you quoted is "normal" or not depends on how many speakers and/or sub(s) are in your system. If it is for only the front left and right, then the opposite would be more appropriate.

"not coming to life" can mean different things, and could be due to other factors than the AVR. Before we can offer something meaningful or logical to your questions, it would be helpful if you don't mind providing the following information.

- What do you mean by "not coming to life", is it lack of dynamics, bass, mids and highs, imaging, and/or something else?

- You only mentioned the floor standers, but do you have surround speakers and subwoofers, are they also MA Gold? Your last sentence seems to indicate you only have a two channel stereo speaker system but I want to be sure.

- If you do have subs, how many, what model?

- You mentioned big lounge, can you tell us the dimensions, LXWXH?

- What is your sitting distance from the floor standers?

- If you had run Audyssey already, please provide the volume position at your normal listening level.

Thanks

 

[Yorkie]

Before we can offer something meaningful or logical to your questions, it would be helpful if you don't mind providing the following information

I'm afraid the answer to the first part is mainly emotional! I listened to speakers in a demo room maybe 15' square, the amp being a Roksan Kandy K3 stereo amp, starting with the Bronzes and similar other makes. They were just speakers, I was just listening to the system. Then the Golds came out, and suddenly, I was listening to music, and falling into it. Clear vocals, great roll-off, effortless introduction of drum beat, this is 'coming to life', for me.

At home, in a room 20' x 12', on the Marantz, again 2 channel (bi-amped, 79 strand oxy-free copper speaker cable) the Gold 200s did not come to life for me. They're good, they're perhaps even very good, but I believe they are capable of more. Strangely, the higher the volume, the better they are, a characteristic that I had not noticed on demo. But at normal listening volumes, which for me mean a level where a normal conversation can still be held with the person you are sitting next to, they are flat, lifeless, nothing different from high street level kit.

It's hard to be analytical, but the lack seems to be across the frequency range, which is why a catch-all term like 'lifeless' springs so readily to mind. Cranked up, all frequencies respond well, although the system is very unforgiving of any lack in source quality, with a catastrophic collapse of treble on compressed sources such as Spotify.

The room layout is wide rather than long, sitting across from the speakers at maybe 8 or 9 feet away, speakers 8 or 9 feet apart (layout attached). Audyssey has been run, listening level with another person in the room is 50 to 60, on my own, I listen at 60 to 70, occasionally enjoying a blast of electro at 90 to energise the soul. At this level, the bass from the 5.5" drivers is quite extraordinary, making me question my orignal plan to add a sub to the system when I can.

Listening tastes, critically jazz, blues, vocals, acoustic, less critically, rock and roll, punk, pop, a bit of electro blues / swing.

So, really, then, the problem is at a lowish listening level, where 'something' seems to be lacking across the board.

 

[PENG]

I'm afraid the answer to the first part is mainly emotional! I listened to speakers in a demo room maybe 15' square, the amp being a Roksan Kandy K3 stereo amp, starting with the Bronzes and similar other makes. They were just speakers, I was just listening to the system. Then the Golds came out, and suddenly, I was listening to music, and falling into it. Clear vocals, great roll-off, effortless introduction of drum beat, this is 'coming to life', for me.

At home, in a room 20' x 12', on the Marantz, again 2 channel (bi-amped, 79 strand oxy-free copper speaker cable) the Gold 200s did not come to life for me. They're good, they're perhaps even very good, but I believe they are capable of more. Strangely, the higher the volume, the better they are, a characteristic that I had not noticed on demo. But at normal listening volumes, which for me mean a level where a normal conversation can still be held with the person you are sitting next to, they are flat, lifeless, nothing different from high street level kit.

In dealer's demo room, they have the right demo program material to show case products they want to push. Their rooms are also typically acoustically treated, at least those used to demo higher end products, such as the MA Gold series.

It's hard to be analytical, but the lack seems to be across the frequency range, which is why a catch-all term like 'lifeless' springs so readily to mind. Cranked up, all frequencies respond well, although the system is very unforgiving of any lack in source quality, with a catastrophic collapse of treble on compressed sources such as Spotify.

I don't listen to compressed sources such as Spotify so I prefer not to comment on that, but for well recorded jazz and classicals, if things improve when cranked up, then it could be normal. If you are listening with Audyssey on, try turning on Dynamic EQ, and make sure you have Dynamic volume and LFC turned off.

The room layout is wide rather than long, sitting across from the speakers at maybe 8 or 9 feet away, speakers 8 or 9 feet apart (layout attached). Audyssey has been run, listening level with another person in the room is 50 to 60, on my own, I listen at 60 to 70, occasionally enjoying a blast of electro at 90 to energise the soul. At this level, the bass from the 5.5" drivers is quite extraordinary, making me question my orignal plan to add a sub to the system when I can.

At 50 to 60, you definitely need to engage Dynamic EQ. At 70, you can leave DEQ on or off if you prefer.

Listening tastes, critically jazz, blues, vocals, acoustic, less critically, rock and roll, punk, pop, a bit of electro blues / swing.

So, really, then, the problem is at a lowish listening level, where 'something' seems to be lacking across the board.

To me, all AVR, separates sound okay when I listen to compressed, amplified music, but you do listen to jazz and acoustic so it is good that you have a mid range Marantz.

Again, your problem most likely can be solved by turning on DEQ, and make sure you have DV and LFC turned off. Have you tried pure direct? When you do, be sure to have volume up high enough so you can hear the bass and treble better.

Not long ago I set up a MA Silver 8 surround system with the SR7009 for someone. I also found at lower volume the music sounded flat. I think MA speakers are quite neutral, and the Siver's are 4 ohm rated speakers. Neutral speakers in theory should work well with Audyssey's DEQ that I find very nicely done, I have plotted graphs that confirms its accuracy.

 

[fmw]

As Peng said, speakers are part of the equation and room ascoustics are the other. No two room produce the same sound. Your options are either to work on the room acoustics or spend some time with the speakers until you become accustomed to them. Familiarity breeds better sound.

I use the free Spotify. The files are 192KBPS MP3. While the 192 files sound very good, there is an audible difference between them and a WAV file. I don't have any way to explain how the treble sounds different because I don't listen to music on Spotify that I already have on my hard drive. I can tell you that the bass normally gets the least compression in conversion so it isn't a stretch to imagine that you might lose some treble. If you pay for the service, then you receiver 320KBPS files and those should be indistinguishable from WAV.

 

[XEagleDriver]

Yorkie,

In addition to the suggestions above, consider the following on the room layout:
1) Having your Main Listening Point (MLP) against the back wall and over 3m (~9ft) from the speakers [speakers appear on the diagram to be ~2m (~6ft) apart] may be a significant contributor to the lack of audio dynamics.

To test this theory, try the following experiment (with spousal permission of course):
1) Move the coffee table out of the way (temporarily) and the move the small sofa (with the MLP) forward towards the screen/speakers to about where the coffee table is on your diagram.
2) This will establish an approximate equalateral triangle between the two speakers and the MLP as well as reduce the distance to the speakers.
3) I would re-run Audessy for the adjusted/temporary new ML.
(TTP: prior to the re-run, take cell phone pictures of the old values on the screen for reference)
4) Conduct listening tests with your spouse to get buy-in on any audio improvement.

If it improves enough, suggest reconfiguring the furniture layout by moving the two sofas, coffee table and chair forward towards the screen/speakers to gain the better audio and establish an entry/walking passage behind rather than in front of these furntiture pieces (with spousal permission of course).

I did something similar to this in a 2-channel set-up and was able to improve the audio and avoid a messy divorce!! This is loosely based on a 2-channel speaker set-up guide I found on a different forum.

Best of luck,
XEagleDriver

 

[KEW]

Just wanted to add that since the sound gets better as you crank up the Marantz to the highest levels you listen, it is clear that the Marantz provides plenty of power for your speakers. The SR6000 series has a good clean pre-amp section (and ditto what PENG said about DynamicEQ), so I would really look at the room as the most likely cause of the difference between the showroom and your home.

 

[Yorkie]

Thank you, everyone, for your ideas, I shall experiment And try to keep my husband in the loop.... Divorcing over it, XEagleDriver, would be ironic as the system is a wedding present!!

 

[Yorkie]

I've set a wider (rather than shorter) sound stage, recalibrated (but set the MLP on the coffee table and positions 7 and 8 on the actual listening position on the sofa), set DynEq ON, DynVol Off, couldn't find LFC, left a couple of settings, MultiEQ, I think, on Reference, switched from my usual pure direct to stereo and it's way, way better. Thank you, guys

I'm getting a bit of boom from the right hand side speaker, it's firing back into a corner, which cannot be avoided, but I'm wondering of something soft placed behind it would help.

Edited to add: something soft behind the speaker did work

 

[PENG]

I've set a wider (rather than shorter) sound stage, recalibrated (but set the MLP on the coffee table and positions 7 and 8 on the actual listening position on the sofa), set DynEq ON, DynVol Off, couldn't find LFC, left a couple of settings, MultiEQ, I think, on Reference, switched from my usual pure direct to stereo and it's way, way better. Thank you, guys

I'm getting a bit of boom from the right hand side speaker, it's firing back into a corner, which cannot be avoided, but I'm wondering of something soft placed behind it would help.

Edited to add: something soft behind the speaker did work

I am not in front of the SR7009 that I installed for someone a few weeks ago. The pic below is taken from my AV8801, I think the SR7009 should have similar screen layout. LFC is default to "off" so you should be okay but just want to be sure in case you have it accidentally turned on. For movies DEQ should be set to 0, for music you should try 5, 10 or higher depending on the kind of music.

If stereo sounds better to you than pure direct, that means Audyssey is doing something for you and that you ran it the right way.

 

[Yorkie]

What is the Reference Level Offset? It works well at 5dBn but even better at 15 I'm delighted by the sound I'm getting now.

 

[PENG]

What is the Reference Level Offset? It works well at 5dBn but even better at 15 I'm delighted by the sound I'm getting now.

Good to know you like it, most people do.

Below is an explanation of the reference level offset, pasted from the Audyssey 101 website:
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/73283-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

"Movies are mixed in rooms calibrated for film reference. To achieve the same reference level in a home theater system each speaker level must be adjusted so that –30 dBFS band-limited (500 Hz – 2000 Hz) pink noise produces 75 dB sound pressure level at the listening position. A home theater system automatically calibrated by Audyssey MultEQ will play at reference level when the master volume control is set to the 0 dB position. At that level you can hear the mix at the same level the mixers heard it.

Audyssey Dynamic EQ is referenced to the standard film mix level. It makes adjustments to maintain the reference response and surround envelopment when the volume is turned down from 0 dB. However, film reference level is not always used in music or other non-film content. The Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset provides three offsets from the film level reference (5 dB, 10 dB, and 15 dB) that can be selected when the mix level of the content is not within the standard.

0 dB (Film Ref): This is the default setting and should be used when listening to movies.

15 dB: Select this setting for pop/rock music or other program material that is mixed at very high listening levels and has a compressed dynamic range.

10 dB: Select this setting for jazz or other music that has a wider dynamic range. This setting should also be selected for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.

5 dB: Select this setting for content that has a very wide dynamic range, such as classical music."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In my experience, Dynamic EQ affects the LFE (subwoofer output, 2.1 mode) a lot more than the main front channels (2.0 mode). I say that because when I had Revel Salon2, turning on DEQ produced insignificant results for me (2.0 stereo mode). However, when I added subwoofers (using the LFE Sub output, 2.1 stereo mode), DEQ was significant.

 

[PENG]

In my experience, Dynamic EQ affects the LFE (subwoofer output, 2.1 mode) a lot more than the main front channels (2.0 mode). I say that because when I had Revel Salon2, turning on DEQ produced insignificant results for me (2.0 stereo mode). However, when I added subwoofers (using the LFE Sub output, 2.1 stereo mode), DEQ was significant.

Did you set the Salon2 to large when doing 2.0? if set to small and XO higher than 40 then I can understand why DEQ won't do much for you.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Did you set the Salon2 to large when doing 2.0? if set to small and XO higher than 40 then I can understand why DEQ won't do much for you.

I think I had the Salon 2 set to Large, Stereo 2.0. Of course, I can't be 100% sure since it was back then.

 

[KEW]

This is my basic understanding of what DEQ does. I think it is a fair simplification, but am happy to be corrected if I have it wrong.

Our hearing changes as the volume increases.
Or, more specific to the function of DEQ, as we turn down the volume the highs and (especially) the bass become dis-proportionally quieter. DEQ is a well-executed effort to compensate for this effect.

4-5 decades ago, loudness switches were added to amps to perform this function. Unfortunately, these controls quickly devolved into a marketing tool to over-hype the bass and treble so as to sound most impressive in the store (at least that is my experience with it).

DEQ is much more sophisticated and as part of Audyssey, DEQ has the info it needs to calibrate for your speakers which the old loudness never did (although Yamaha came close with their variable loudness knob).

 

[PENG]

This is my basic understanding of what DEQ does. I think it is a fair simplification, but am happy to be corrected if I have it wrong.

Our hearing changes as the volume increases.
Or, more specific to the function of DEQ, as we turn down the volume the highs and (especially) the bass become dis-proportionally quieter. DEQ is a well-executed effort to compensate for this effect.

3-4 decades ago, loudness switches were added to amps to perform this function. Unfortunately, these controls quickly devolved into a marketing tool to over-hype the bass and treble so as to sound most impressive in the store (at least that is my experience with it).

DEQ is much more sophisticated and as part of Audyssey, DEQ has the info it needs to calibrate for your speakers which the old loudness never did (although Yamaha came close with their variable loudness knob).

Thanks, I didn't bother explaining DEQ because Yorkie only asked about the reference level offset. Now with this post any my cut and paste in post#12, Yorkie has the complete picture.

 

[little wing]

Good to know you like it, most people do.

Below is an explanation of the reference level offset, pasted from the Audyssey 101 website:
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/73283-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

"Movies are mixed in rooms calibrated for film reference. To achieve the same reference level in a home theater system each speaker level must be adjusted so that –30 dBFS band-limited (500 Hz – 2000 Hz) pink noise produces 75 dB sound pressure level at the listening position. A home theater system automatically calibrated by Audyssey MultEQ will play at reference level when the master volume control is set to the 0 dB position. At that level you can hear the mix at the same level the mixers heard it.

Audyssey Dynamic EQ is referenced to the standard film mix level. It makes adjustments to maintain the reference response and surround envelopment when the volume is turned down from 0 dB. However, film reference level is not always used in music or other non-film content. The Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset provides three offsets from the film level reference (5 dB, 10 dB, and 15 dB) that can be selected when the mix level of the content is not within the standard.

0 dB (Film Ref): This is the default setting and should be used when listening to movies.

15 dB: Select this setting for pop/rock music or other program material that is mixed at very high listening levels and has a compressed dynamic range.

10 dB: Select this setting for jazz or other music that has a wider dynamic range. This setting should also be selected for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.

5 dB: Select this setting for content that has a very wide dynamic range, such as classical music."

I don't want to get this thread off track, but just wanted to ask a question about reference level offset. I am thinking about a Marantz or Denon as my next receiver. I just wanted to know is it really necessary to go into this menu and make adjustments based on the type of music your listening to? Seems cumbersome. Is there no one basic setting for all types of music?
Thanks.

 

[PENG]

I don't want to get this thread off track, but just wanted to ask a question about reference level offset. I am thinking about a Marantz or Denon as my next receiver. I just wanted to know is it really necessary to go into this menu and make adjustments based on the type of music your listening to? Seems cumbersome. Is there no one basic setting for all types of music?
Thanks.

Not really, but you only have to do it once for each input so it isn't that bad.

 

[Yorkie]

I am adjusting DEQ with music type now: new stuff at 15dB, old recordings at 0dB because the treble falls apart at 15dB. It's a little fiddly, but not too bad, it's only a few clicks into the menus.

I haven't found out how to set it for each input type, but I only use one input.

It would be good to be able to configure each music type as set by the remote, but I don't think that's possible.