Old school Yamaha amps vs ?

M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Oh we're definitely lunatics. I was looking at a Yamaha MX-1 yesterday and was this close to buying it but the store selling it did not have to means to properly test it for me and I was at least 100 miles from home and I wasn't about to drive all over creation just to get the equipment necessary. So I guess maybe I'm only part lunatic. :D

The amplifier is rated 200 watts per channel at 8 ohms with 0.008% THD and 320 watts at 2 ohms with 0.09% THD. It weighs 52 pounds (partly due to a base plate that adds to the weight), but it has a hefty pair of EI core transformers and heavy duty heatsinks adorn each side of the enclosure.
Waitaminit. A store selling something didn't have the equipment to "properly" test it? If that isn't a red flag I don't know what is.

 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
But now that brings up a new question. A few days ago Emotiva announced that they will be releasing their Gen 3 line-up early 2nd quarter. A complete redesign from the ground up, the new amps will be 25% more powerful, modular (can add channels down the road if you wish) and they’ll be abandoning traditional power supplies and going to an entirely different type of power supply termed SMPS (Switched Mode Power Supply). I know nothing about power supplies so I did some quick research. Turns out they’re much more power efficient, but at the cost of being more complicated to build and need carefully detailed shielding. Can someone explain in plain English how this type of power supply works, and is it worth waiting for, or would I be better off buying the Gen 2 amps that are on sale now?
Let price be the deciding factor for you. There hasn't been anything truly new in audio amplifier function in decades. The new developments seem to be those that make amps less expensive to make. Compared to earlier years, Watts keep getting cheaper.

I can't comment on the electronic benefits of Switched Mode Power Supplies, there may actually be some, but I wonder if they actually lead to audible benefits for the listener.

Whenever I see an audio manufacturer announce a completely redesigned product line with language that makes it sound like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, I always suspect the marketing department has been hard at work. Probably what really happened is the stock of power supplies that Emotiva had purchased has nearly run out, and that Emotiva's supplier no longer makes what they had previously bought. As a result, they have to redesign their amps around the new parts. Rather than reveal that, the marketing guys sell it as New and Improved.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If that's true, then why the high demand for those 30 year old amps? Why aren't they buying new stuff that costs less if it sounds just as good?
High demand from a very small population of audio enthusiasts. The rest of us know better. :)

Great amps are great whether they were designed 30YR ago or yesterday.

Bad amps are bad whether they were designed 30YR ago or yesterday.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Waitaminit. A store selling something didn't have the equipment to "properly" test it? If that isn't a red flag I don't know what is.
In the pawn shops this is a frequent occurrence. Often times pawn shops buy items and do loans on items in "good faith" that the seller/pawnee isn't bringing faulty items in.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Wikipedia says this about SMPS:

"Advantages and disadvantages
The main advantage of the switching power supply is greater efficiency because the switching transistor dissipates little power when acting as a switch. Other advantages include smaller size and lighter weight from the elimination of heavy line-frequency transformers, and lower heat generation due to higher efficiency. Disadvantages include greater complexity, the generation of high-amplitude, high-frequency energy that the low-pass filter must block to avoid electromagnetic interference (EMI), a ripple voltage at the switching frequency and the harmonic frequencies thereof.

Very low cost SMPSs may couple electrical switching noise back onto the mains power line, causing interference with A/V equipment connected to the same phase. Non-power-factor-corrected SMPSs also cause harmonic distortion."

Less expensive copper wire in the transformer windings, and lighter weight lead to obvious savings. They might also use less electricity over time, if a Green rating becomes important to audio amplifiers.

The greatest expenses in manufacturing audio power amplifiers are 1) the power supply transformer, 2) the decorative machined aluminum front plate (not all amp makers use that), and 3) shipping. The other parts are relatively cheap, especially if the manufacturer buys them in large quantities from the suppliers.

If Emotiva has found SMPS that are less expensive for them and that don't interfere with audio frequencies, good for them. But from what I understand from reading Wikipedia, there is no reason to believe that audio amps with SMPS will lead to an audible improvement in amplification.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
In the pawn shops this is a frequent occurrence. Often times pawn shops buy items and do loans on items in "good faith" that the seller/pawnee isn't bringing faulty items in.
I hear ya, but it's hard to believe they didn't have a pair of speakers and some kinda source to use. Whenever I buy stuff from them, I demand to see it work, and they always accommodate me. Particularly with speakers.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
If Emotiva has found SMPS that are less expensive for them and that don't interfere with audio frequencies, good for them. But from what I understand from reading Wikipedia, there is no reason to believe that audio amps with SMPS will lead to an audible improvement in amplification.
I agree, it probably won't lead to improvement (other than lower cost for power). However Wikipedia isn't exactly an ironclad source of information.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I hear ya, but it's hard to believe they didn't have a pair of speakers and some kinda source to use. Whenever I buy stuff from them, I demand to see it work, and they always accommodate me. Particularly with speakers.
I should clarify. They attempted to tested it, with an iPhone and mix matched speakers. The amplifier kept going into protect mode. My research indicates this may be DC offset from the iPhone headphone output. Without a proper preamplifier there wasn't much else that could have been done, and they didn't have any.
 
J

Jack N

Audioholic
Swerd – I am inclined to agree with you. I don’t think the power supply in itself is going to help the sound quality at all. However there would be a couple of side benefits, one being heat reduction, and the other would be that you could get a more powerful amp to run on a 15amp circuit.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I would only spend that kind of money on speakers.
Its not that expensive considering its an 11 channel amp offerring differential output. Its rather cheap compared to the comparable Denon model.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Its not that expensive considering its an 11 channel amp offerring differential output. Its rather cheap compared to the comparable Denon model.
I'm not saying it's a bad price, just not how I would spend MY money. ;) :D
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm not saying it's a bad price, just not how I would spend MY money. ;) :D
I would need a room big enough to sport that "bad boy".. I also wouldn't spend that much either because my room is not big enough to tap into its considerable resources. ;)
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I would need a room big enough to sport that "bad boy".. I also wouldn't spend that much either because my room is not big enough to tap into its considerable resources. ;)
Much the same. I live in a 1 bedroom apartment. :/
 
H

hillhobbit76

Audiophyte
Amps will sound different with equipment. One piece may enhance another sound. Bright speakers may bring up a warm sounding amps sound or vice versa. Separates and AV amps sound different. 9 amps in an av will sound different than a dedicated amp. So many variables.I feel sound is in the simplicity of the build and quality also. Caps are a major factor. Each brand cap has a different sense of sound,It never ends. I’m going to see tomorrow how my vintage Tammy m80 and Mx 1000 will do against the SAE A501. Using some Klipsch RF7 ii’s. Just a yammy 3050 av as the brain.
 
J

Jack N

Audioholic
Wow! I’m surprised this old thread is still alive. I’ve done a lot of reading on this subject over the years and learned for the most part what was said earlier in the thread was/is true. Too bad I was so thick headed back then.

FWIW – Out of stupid dumb luck I ran across a pair of Outlaw 7900s brand new in the boxes on eBay for a very good price and went with those. Expensive, but still a lot cheaper than going my original route, and they take up a whole lot less space. As to be expected, they do sound similar to the Yammies but I do hear differences. The Outlaws are quieter with a lower noise floor, dynamic range and transient handling is better, and low-level detail seems to come through clearer. So even though there hasn’t been any major changes in the basic design of amps, the minor changes that have been made definitely do add up after 30+ years of evolution. A win/win for me.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Wow! I’m surprised this old thread is still alive. I’ve done a lot of reading on this subject over the years and learned for the most part what was said earlier in the thread was/is true. Too bad I was so thick headed back then.

FWIW – Out of stupid dumb luck I ran across a pair of Outlaw 7900s brand new in the boxes on eBay for a very good price and went with those. Expensive, but still a lot cheaper than going my original route, and they take up a whole lot less space. As to be expected, they do sound similar to the Yammies but I do hear differences. The Outlaws are quieter with a lower noise floor, dynamic range and transient handling is better, and low-level detail seems to come through clearer. So even though there hasn’t been any major changes in the basic design of amps, the minor changes that have been made definitely do add up after 30+ years of evolution. A win/win for me.
Seems like you are one of those who managed to learn, and not blindly follow the logic of "if amps sound the same, why are there different ones made and people willing to pay a fortune for some...." kind of non sensical arguments or other hearsay about how even amps designed for transparency would sound warm, medium warm, cold, punchy, forward sounding, blablabla kind of BS.

This is indeed an old thread, during that time iirc., we typically would get such posts about "amp sounds" weekly, but a lot of the members have learnt too over the years and we have been getting much fewer posts of such nature and more are asking more objective questions. For example, instead asking which amp would match their bright, forward sounding speakers, they would ask instead, whether the amp being considered could drive their speakers that are known to be "difficult to drive", or power hungry kind of more sensible questions. It is so silly to think people need to match the sound "signature" of amps to speakers, as though we need some kind of dating apps in order to find good matches lol.., instead of relying on specs and measurements. Dating apps would do a good job to match people up, but amps are designed, build based on known matured science and their characteristics, unlike humans, are totally measurable.

Regardless, the arguments will never die for the obvious reasons. Certain facts however, remain unchanged, and I would think most can agree on, such as:

Different amps will sound different, if not compared on apples-to-apples basis such as:

Not level matched, one amp is pushed closer to its clipping point, whereas the other amp is nowhere near its clipping point, one amp has audible noise (such as some of the vintage amps), tube amps purposedly designed to have audible distortions (say 0.1%), one amp has high output impedance, whereas the other has output impedance well below 0.1 ohm, one amp is too current limited for the speakers used whereas the other amp is not limited in voltage or current for the same speakers and for the same test conditions, and the most important one is, if one know which amp one is listening to against the other one being compared, he would naturally hear (perceive) differences between the amps. This "fact" has been proven in many/various studies.

Above are just some examples of the reasons different amps could sound different.

Based on objective facts, once you get pass the entry level amps, such as you Outlaw 7900, you can then almost assume that as long as you use the amp within it's output limits (think voltage and current, not watts), it will sound the same as any other amps that have comparable specs in SNR/DR, FR, THD+N, cross talk, output impedance (or the so called damping factor), input impedance, and IMD (usually low if THD is very low), just to name the important ones.

The Outlaw 7900's specs checked all the boxes and based on website info:

Signal To Noise Greater than 120dB; rated FTCfull bandwidth power

So yes, it should be near silent for normal use, even in a relatively quiet room.

Since you have been doing a lot of reading, I am not writing this long post to convince you. Just like as I mentioned, we haven't seen much of post on the amps sounding different/same topics so I thought it wouldn't hurt to sort of comment on the first resurrected post (the one before yours) since 2015.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Wow! I’m surprised this old thread is still alive. I’ve done a lot of reading on this subject over the years and learned for the most part what was said earlier in the thread was/is true. Too bad I was so thick headed back then.

FWIW – Out of stupid dumb luck I ran across a pair of Outlaw 7900s brand new in the boxes on eBay for a very good price and went with those. Expensive, but still a lot cheaper than going my original route, and they take up a whole lot less space. As to be expected, they do sound similar to the Yammies but I do hear differences. The Outlaws are quieter with a lower noise floor, dynamic range and transient handling is better, and low-level detail seems to come through clearer. So even though there hasn’t been any major changes in the basic design of amps, the minor changes that have been made definitely do add up after 30+ years of evolution. A win/win for me.
I recall the Outlaw 7900 amplifier was built in the USA by ATI.. ATI builds amplifiers for many brands and my experience with their products has been excellent...

Just my $0.02.. ;)
 
J

Jack N

Audioholic
Thanks Peng. Good points to keep in mind. I've noticed a drop in the perceived posts as well.

M Code - Yes, the 7900 is actually an ATI AT6007 Morris Kessler Signature amp. It was his best effort up to that point in 2007(?) when the model was first released. Outlaw wasn't the only one to buy it with their own skin on as I believe Lexicon did the same thing with the ZX-7. I find it interesting the AT6007 is still being manufactured the exact same way today as it was 16 years ago except for a change in cosmetics. Like somebody mentioned earlier in the thread, good amps stay good amps for a long time. I'm looking for another 7900 so if you hear of somebody with one for sale.....
 

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